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I know lots of people are going to say the Lotus 49 or the McLaren MP4/4.
But for me it is the Ferrari F2002. A car in which Schumacher finished 1st or 2nd in every single GP that year (Malaysia, the only 3rd place was in the F2001).
9 1-2 finishes out of 14 races with that car as well. For a car to be that dominant, even with an average driver like Rubens Barrichello behind the wheel, makes it the greatest F1 car ever raced.
The only thing against the MP4/4 is that it won in the hands of statistically the 2nd and 3rd most successful F1 drivers of all time, Senna and Prost. Would have been interesting to see what the likes of a John Watson, Martin Brundle, Thierry Boutsen, Alessandro Nannini standard of driver would have managed.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
http://b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/4520Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
The F2002 is my pick as well, definitely a dominant world beater, also because it was a 90° 3l V10, probably the best configuration for the chassis specs. Although the Ferrari 051 was not as powerful as the BMW P82 it was extremely reliable, and lighter I think. BTW I’m not saying that Ferrari made the best V10, only that the V10 was the ideal F1 engine IMHO
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/image...i-F2002_13.jpg
For some reason I always think of the F2004 being more dominant than the F2002. Maybe that's because Williams and McLaren didn't turn up in 2004.
1992 Williams comes to mind. That car was embarrassingly quick compared to others.
http://chivethethrottle.files.wordpr...ina_1wtmk1.jpg
The Ferrari Sigma Grand Prix.
Races: 0
Wins: 0
This car featured the first tub, airliner style plastic safety fuel tanks, seat belts and pods to projecting behind the rear wheels to prevent cars locking wheels and jumping.
It was really the first car ever conceived with the admission that motor racers are paid professionals and that safety standards are things worth having.
What about the Cooper-Climax of 1959 and 1960, the Ferrari Dino 156 of 1961 and the Lotus 25/33 of 1963-65 (although that may have been Jim Clark rather than the car)?
The Ferrari F2004, McLaren MP4-4, Ferrari F2002, Williams FW14, Red Bull RB7, McLaren MP4-20 (if it just hadn't such a terrible reliability) are the best F1 cars ever I think.
I don't think that's valid. Car design was always a balance between pure speed and reliability. McLaren themselves confessed they went too far in one direction at the cost of any sort of reliability. It was a trend of theirs at the time, what with the MP4-18 never actually making it to the grid.Quote:
Originally Posted by heliocastroneves#3
A car that won on its first GP outing and a further 3 times in a 12 GP season
Team and WDC titles the following year with another 5 GPs out of 12
Only 2 GP wins in its 3rd season but still competitive and in its 4th season gave the WDC his first season win before the 1970 car was ready.
Madames et Messieurs I give you the Lotus Ford 49
Give me a freakin' break Glue' :rolleyes: That rig was getting punked regularly in the second half of the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
17 races started 8 wins.
Ferrari won 15 out of 17 races in the 2002 season ;)
The 1988 McLaren Honda or the 2002 Ferrari... I am not sure which one was more dominant.
FW14B - the apex of F1 techology and assorted gizmos and driver aids.
Lotus 79 - a game changer in car design.
MP 4/4 is a strange one. Always hailed in high esteem by the fans but has its critics notably having the two best drivers driving it and IIRC nothing special from a technical POV as they had been evolutions and grand ideas refined by the designers.
I don't think it was as great in the first third of 2009. Toyota chickened out on winning the Bahrain GP and RBR were dominant in China.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini
:laugh: I knew that post was going to ruffle some feathers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini
The Alfa Romeo 158/159/159M cars were both very good-looking and quite dominating, traits not necessarily found in the same machine. The various Maserati 250F types and the Vanwalls were both very successful cars and also very attractive, unlike the eyesores of the last too many decades.
However, the "best ever" -- a typically empty, meaningless forum-speak phrase if there ever was one -- F1 car as regards to influence should go, hands down, to a line of cars already mentioned: the Coopers that began appear in 1957 as novelties and by the 1960 season had completely changed the game.
Same could be said for the F2002. Both quite conservatively engineered, just very very well executed. I can't really decide which one of those two was the best, statistically winning 15 out of 16 is better than winning 15 out of 17 and the MP4/4 was never outraced either so the McLaren it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
I dunno, but with a proper reliability the MP4-20 would have been as dominant as the F2004 the year before...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
To each his own ;) I think that the phrase "Both conservatively engineered" dose the F2002 a bit of an injustice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malbec
Here is an interesting read from a source I hold in very high regard.
Quote:
One of the key aims during the design of the F2002 was a dramatic weight increase and the lowering of the centre of gravity, targeting more freedom for the race engineers to move ballast around to improve the ballast of the car. The chassis was completely new, both in terms of shape, which is a result of the car's aerodynamic development programme, and in terms of construction which has resulted in a considerable weight saving.
The suspension and steering system also underwent a major revision. Rory Byrne said at the launch: "There is a fundamentally new power steering system to comply with the new 2002 regulations forbidding the use of electronically controlled power steering. Again, a prototype version has been successfully tested on the F2001. Both front and rear suspension have been revised to maximise the performance of the Bridgestone tyres. The inboard end of the rear suspension has been completely revised to optimise the rear end aerodynamics. Almost all of the suspension components have been refined and many have been manufactured using new materials and manufacturing methods in order to reduce weight. "
Read on:Quote:
In essence this was by far the best Ferrari ever designed. In the 15 races it was fielded during 2002, the car won 14, 10 times in second place and another third place finish. The only race that was not won that year was the Grand Prix of Monaco, where Schumacher finished second to David Coulthard's McLaren. /-/ The new Ferrari was launched on 6 Februari, at 11am, in the 'Nuova Meccanica' pavillion at Ferrari HQ in Maranello. It was the start of an extremely successful season for the Scuderia, with a car that would eventually improve on the McLaren MP4-4 as the most dominating car (Senna and Prost gathered 199 points together and won 15 out of 16 races in a single season).
Ferrari F2002 - F1technical.net
Using the Pomeroy Index system, Motor Sport magazine recently determined that the F2002 is the fastest Formula One car of all time.
McCabism: The Pomeroy Index
This exercise all in all is a subjective comparison, and I say: "viva la difference" Both cars were incredibly successful, but I would definately give the edge to McLaren in terms of pilot talent. :beer: :cool:
But maybe if they made it reliable it would have been slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by heliocastroneves#3
An important point. As it pertains to 2002, JPM put the FW24 on pole seven times, and finished with zero wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
Best ever in terms of...? Results, looks, livery, technology?
For me nothing beats the Lotus 79. Results wise it won a championship and just 7 races and was competitive for less than a year but for someone fairly new to the sport at the time it looked a 'proper' racing car, had the best livery ever, shaped F1 for years to come and was driven by Andretti and Peterson. 'Nuff said :D
The thing that stands out for me about Ferrari in 2002 is that they scored 221 points. The rest of the grid combined scored 221 points. The 1988 McLaren can't match that statistic. Besides, I'm completely biased. ;)
Speak of the devil; Mario taking it for the first lap at the grand opening of CotA last week :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5gLo...layer_embedded
1961 Ferrari 156 Sharknose. Saw one racing at the Goodwood Revival a year or 2 ago.
Beautiful .
No I don't think "conservatively engineered" is an injustice at all and frankly the article you quote proves it as much - refinement and 'simple' engineering solutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini
As with "best driver" debates I think headlining statistics are not necessarily an important indicator.
As much as I admire simple/conservative engineering I also admire technology and innovation: there is something special about a great race car with a silver bullet that precipitates (Lotus 79) or is at the apex (FW 14B)of an arms race.
These are all points well taken. I would just like to point out that the difference in the amount of latitude within "The Formula" in the '70's compared to the 21st century is enormous, and the refining of many parts from the F2001 for the F2002 should be taken into consideration in that context. JMOQuote:
Originally Posted by wedge
The success of Ferrari up until 2002 would not have been possible without Bridgestone.
Technologically the best F1 car ever:
The 1978 Brabham "fan" car.
The Lotus 25 was the first fully stressed monocoque chassis in F1 and still won both the Constructors' Championship and the Drivers' Championship in its fourth season.
NO car in F1 since has been so brilliant that it still won GPs four years later, not even the McLaren MP4/1.
To be honest I can only judge from mid 80s onwards, so not point in me commenting on years before as I can only go on results, rather than circumstances.
Mclaren 88 - 15 of 16 races, but 2 brilliant drivers. Prost & Senna
Williams 92- Was just so much faster than the rest it was untrue. Mansell & Patrese.
Ferrari 02 - 15 of 17 races and it was so fast it was only Malaysia where Ferrari weren't ever in with a chance of winning. Monaco 2002 Schumi hounded Coulthard to the end and could have won.
MS & Rubens
Ferrari 04- Another dominant Ferrari & holds lap records still I think at alot of tracks and so could be the fastest car of all time. Even if not the most dominant ever. MS&Rubens
Red Bull 2011- Wow this was dominant in the hands of Seb, but maybe not to the same extent as others mentioned.
So those are my shortlist of 5. You could seperate them by absolute pace, dominance of a season or driver line up. (i.e a Seb & Webber dominant season could suggest a better car, than a Prost Senna dominant season?)
The 1992 Williams held lap records until towards the late 90s and the Ferrari 2004 hold a few to today. So those 2 suggest being the out and out fastest.
The most dominant in a season were Mclaren 1988 & Ferrari 2002.
So based on that I discount Red Bull 2011.
I think on balance of line up and season dominance rather than out & out pace. I will go for....
F2002.
Given that Ferrari used to run previous year's car at the first few races of a season in the early 2000s I'd rate the F2001 as far superior.
An updated spec F2001 and still having the ability to spank the field - especially at the first race is a heck of a achievement.
I profoundly disagree, however:Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Bob Dylan - Most Likely You Go Your Way (And I'll Go Mine) - YouTube