Worst team-mates

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8th October 2012, 18:54
AndyL

Worst team-mates

Inspired by Knock-on's comment about Schumacher being one of the worst performing team-mates over the last 3 years, I decided to look up the championship points tables and work out just who have been the tardiest team-mates in that period. Each line shows the name of the driver, the team-mate they were beaten by, their team and their championship points score as a % of their team-mate's score.
Italics indicate scores that are less statistically valid because both drivers had 2 or fewer points scores, or both scored less than 10 points in total. And the unquantifiable bottom 3 teams are omitted.

2010:

Code:

1 Petrov (Kubica, Renault) 20% 2 De La Rosa (Kobayashi, Sauber) 29% 3 Liuzzi (Sutil, Force India) 45% 4 Hulkenberg (Barrichello, Williams) 47% 5 Schumacher (Rosberg, Mercedes) 51%

2011:

Code:

1 De La Rosa (Kobayashi, Sauber) 0% 2 Maldonado (Barrichello, Williams) 25% 3 Senna (Petrov, Renault) 40% 4 Massa (Alonso, Ferrari) 46% 5 Buemi (Alguersuari, Torro Rosso) 58%

2012 (so far):

Code:

1 D'Ambrosio (Raikkonen, Renault) 0% 2 Massa (Alonso, Ferrari) 36% 3 Schumacher (Rosberg, Mercedes) 46% 4 Grosjean (Raikkonen, Renault) 56% 5 Webber (Vettel, Red Bull) 71%

Schumacher does indeed make the top 5 worst team-mates in 2 years out of 3. Statistically Massa looks like he comes out even worse: if you ignore the "statistically invalid" entries in 2011 he's topping the table. However you might consider Alonso to be a more testing standard to measure against than Rosberg.
In 2012, Grosjean's score is surprisingly decent for a guy who crashes or gets banned every other race.

Finally looking at the top 4 teams, who have all had stable driver pairings, over the 3 years:

Code:

1 Massa (Alonso, Ferrari) 47% 2 Schumacher (Rosberg, Mercedes) 59% 3 Webber (Vettel, Red Bull) 76% 4 Button (Hamilton, McLaren) 99%
8th October 2012, 19:35
The Black Knight

I like this thread. I haven't had a chance to look it up yet. It if you exclude all the points that Nico scored at all the races where Schumacher didn't finish due to mechanical retirements how does he fare up this year? Will tell a more accurate story I reckon. Still not a 100% accurate representation I know but definitely a better one.
8th October 2012, 20:28
Mark

Usually qualifying pace is a better measure as it has less random happenings than races.
8th October 2012, 20:30
keysersoze

My all-time favorite Alex Zanardi lost to Ralf Schumacher, 33-0, in 1999. In qualifying, however, it was a bit closer--something like 12-5 in favor of the German.
8th October 2012, 21:27
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Usually qualifying pace is a better measure as it has less random happenings than races.

I don't think so, I mean based on quali alone, Kimi Räikkönen would fare quite badly against Grosjean this year and the reality is quite different. Perez is another case, Kobayashi has usually beaten him in qualifying but the races have been a different story.
9th October 2012, 03:07
Hawkmoon

I think you need to look at both qualifying and the race. If memory serves, Schumacher has beaten Rosberg in qualifying more often than not this year. If you then take out mechanical retirements for both drivers and compare their points you might find that the Mercedes drivers have been pretty even this year.
9th October 2012, 09:57
F1boat

I agree with Hawkmoon
9th October 2012, 10:13
Knock-on

1F, 1F, 1F!!! F1, F1, F1!!!

We can use statistics like candy but the only one that really matters is what the points are at the end of the race.

2012: 93 - 43
2011: 89 - 76
2010: 142 - 72

Guess who's in the left and right column?

This is supposed to be THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIME according to some of his supporters. He does one good move in a race and they claim "He's still got it"!

When he first came on the scene, he was as exciting as Lewis but the on-track antics and the cheating has tainted his reputation. He has benefitted from the sort of advantage with cars that Vettel has for the last 3 years and should have retired a couple of years before he did the first time because he didn't have the pace and was inflated by Massa and Ferrari supporting him as the number 1.

The first time since the early Bennetton days that he was on a level playing field within a team and he gets humilitated. Nico isn't all that and I'm sure people will bookmark this post to use if I'm wrong but next year, Lewis will comprehensivly beat him. Where does that leave Schumacher than? A driver that is supposed to be the best of all time but couldn't beat a mediocre team mate when the rules and machinery was even?

Pffff!
9th October 2012, 11:11
AndyL

Yes I would say the argument against assessing on the basis of qualifying is that qualifying doesn't matter - there are no points awarded on Saturday. The only value of qualifying well is whether it helps you in the race, and obviously the race results reflect that aspect. If driver A qualifies faster at every race, but then keeps spinning off or being passed by his team-mate driver B in the race, then driver B is "better" even though driver A is "faster". Ultimate speed over a single lap is only a means to an end.

Weeding out random accidents and mechanical failures might give more representative results, but it's very difficult to avoid making value judgements - was a particular retirement because of a purely random failure, or did the driver precipitate it by hitting the kerbs too hard for example? How much of the blame did the driver share for a particular accident? Easier just to file that in the "too hard" folder and assume that luck evens out over time :)
9th October 2012, 11:30
The Black Knight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

1F, 1F, 1F!!! F1, F1, F1!!!

We can use statistics like candy but the only one that really matters is what the points are at the end of the race.

2012: 93 - 43
2011: 89 - 76
2010: 142 - 72

Guess who's in the left and right column?

This is supposed to be THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIME according to some of his supporters. He does one good move in a race and they claim "He's still got it"!

When he first came on the scene, he was as exciting as Lewis but the on-track antics and the cheating has tainted his reputation. He has benefitted from the sort of advantage with cars that Vettel has for the last 3 years and should have retired a couple of years before he did the first time because he didn't have the pace and was inflated by Massa and Ferrari supporting him as the number 1.

The first time since the early Bennetton days that he was on a level playing field within a team and he gets humilitated. Nico isn't all that and I'm sure people will bookmark this post to use if I'm wrong but next year, Lewis will comprehensivly beat him. Where does that leave Schumacher than? A driver that is supposed to be the best of all time but couldn't beat a mediocre team mate when the rules and machinery was even?

Pffff!

YAWN! Silly argument and doesn't even begin to take into account factors such as age and rustiness (two huge factors) nor the clear gradual improvement Schumacher has shown over the past two years. You don't win 7 WDC by being a mediocre driver as you are suggesting. You can continue to deny him this label all you want but the stats that you're so fond of above show Schumacher destroying all his teammates in his first career and just like you conveniently ignore his age, rustiness, car failures/quality, in your argument to prove your point, I'm going to ignore the number one status he had at Ferrari and Benetton in mine :) Since (in your own words) the "the only one that really matters is what the points are at the end of the race", they clearly show Schumacher's brilliance :)
9th October 2012, 11:43
AndyL

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Knight

YAWN! Silly argument and doesn't even begin to take into account factors such as age and rustiness (two huge factors) nor the clear gradual improvement Schumacher has shown over the past two years.

Subjectively I would have to agree Schumacher has gradually improved each year since his comeback. Would he have matched Rosberg by the time he was 50 do you think ;)
9th October 2012, 12:01
The Black Knight

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyL

Subjectively I would have to agree Schumacher has gradually improved each year since his comeback. Would he have matched Rosberg by the time he was 50 do you think ;)

I think he has matched him this year. Take out the mechanical retirements this year and I'm pretty sure they'd be almost level on points, in fact, Schumacher might even be leading Rosberg.

I also believe that people underestimate how good Rosberg is and I believe Lewis will have a tougher time next year than people realize. I also believe that next year is Rosberg's time to shine. It was a no win situation for him with Schumacher. Beating him meant he was simply beating an over the hill champion. Next year if he shows Lewis a hard time it will up his stock considerably.
9th October 2012, 12:04
dj_bytedisaster

I must admit that I consider it fairly respectless to label Rosberg a mediocre driver as a means to deliver the slur about Schumacher.
Everybody, who wins a Formula One race, especially in a car that is by no means a front-runner, can't be a mediocre driver. By that definition Kimmi would be an appalingly bad driver, considering that he has zilch victories this year, compared to the one victory of Maldonado and Rosberg respectively. And before someone jumps the gun - yes I do not consider Maldonado mediocre. He may drive as if he has his helmet on back-to-front, but that has more to do with inexperience and temper, not with lack of talent. Once he gets that sorted out, he'll be a serious contender.
9th October 2012, 12:08
The Black Knight

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

I must admit that I consider it fairly respectless to label Rosberg a mediocre driver as a means to deliver the slur about Schumacher.
Everybody, who wins a Formula One race, especially in a car that is by no means a front-runner, can't be a mediocre driver. By that definition Kimmi would be an appalingly bad driver, considering that he has zilch victories this year, compared to the one victory of Maldonado and Rosberg respectively. And before someone jumps the gun - yes I do not consider Maldonado mediocre. He may drive as if he has his helmet on back-to-front, but that has more to do with inexperience and temper, not with lack of talent. Once he gets that sorted out, he'll be a serious contender.

Maldonado reminds me of Jean Alesi. He has all the talent and speed you'd want in a driver, none of the brains.
9th October 2012, 12:22
Malbec

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

1F, 1F, 1F!!! F1, F1, F1!!!

We can use statistics like candy but the only one that really matters is what the points are at the end of the race.

Great argument!

Don't bother watching qualifying or the race, just glance at the race results on Sunday evening. That gives you just as much information if not more than following what actually happened!
9th October 2012, 12:52
AndyL

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I also believe that people underestimate how good Rosberg is and I believe Lewis will have a tougher time next year than people realize.

I would agree with that, I think he's under-rated and a quality driver. One of the most interesting aspects of Hamilton's move will be to see how Rosberg compares to him.
9th October 2012, 13:18
dj_bytedisaster

A lot will depend on how different the driving styles of Rosberg and Hamilton are. They have three years worth of experience with Rosberg's style and preferences, so they can easily make a car that fits him - especially with Schumacher out of the picture, who preferres oversteering cars. Lewis will be contractually bound to McLaren until the end of the year, so by the time he gets to join Mercedes in January, the car will be mostly finished. So in theory Rosberg starts 2013 with a slight advantage.
9th October 2012, 13:51
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

I must admit that I consider it fairly respectless to label Rosberg a mediocre driver as a means to deliver the slur about Schumacher.
Everybody, who wins a Formula One race, especially in a car that is by no means a front-runner, can't be a mediocre driver. By that definition Kimmi would be an appalingly bad driver, considering that he has zilch victories this year, compared to the one victory of Maldonado and Rosberg respectively. And before someone jumps the gun - yes I do not consider Maldonado mediocre. He may drive as if he has his helmet on back-to-front, but that has more to do with inexperience and temper, not with lack of talent. Once he gets that sorted out, he'll be a serious contender.

Mediocre in the field of F1 drivers. We have the best out there ie Alonso and Hamilton. The very good but just a fracton short of brilliant ie Vettel and Button, the mediocre being the likes of Nico and Massa and the rest of the field.

Mixed in there are drivers we are evaluating such as Checo, PdR, Romain etc and people are making their minds up on these as we are seeing.

Nico might prove me wrong and bear in mind I was one of about 2 people on here that predicted he would beat Schumacher before they turned a wheel together but I put him as a upper-midfield driver until he proves me wrong.

Now, you put him in any other series and he would be one of the very best but this is F1 and the drivers must be judged against their contempories, not against every driver in every series.
9th October 2012, 13:56
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malbec

Great argument!

Don't bother watching qualifying or the race, just glance at the race results on Sunday evening. That gives you just as much information if not more than following what actually happened!

You might be able to remember every qulifying and reason for retirement over the past 3 years but I struggle to remember just the races ;)

At the end of the race, todays headlines are tomorrows fish and chip wrappers. You award millions of pounds and the championship titles on race results, not how lucky or unlucky a driver has been otherwise you devalue some of Schumachers and Ferrari's earlier achievements when they only won because McLaren couldn't last a race.
9th October 2012, 14:08
dj_bytedisaster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Mediocre in the field of F1 drivers. We have the best out there ie Alonso and Hamilton. The very good but just a fracton short of brilliant ie Vettel and Button, the mediocre being the likes of Nico and Massa and the rest of the field.

Mixed in there are drivers we are evaluating such as Checo, PdR, Romain etc and people are making their minds up on these as we are seeing.

Nico might prove me wrong and bear in mind I was one of about 2 people on here that predicted he would beat Schumacher before they turned a wheel together but I put him as a upper-midfield driver until he proves me wrong.

Now, you put him in any other series and he would be one of the very best but this is F1 and the drivers must be judged against their contempories, not against every driver in every series.

I'm still not with you. Mediocre implies that a driver can't really make much of the car's potential. Massa last year - that was a mediocre showing. Rosberg has been at Williams and Mercedes neither of which has been any better than a midfield car, yet he squeezed a win and 7 podiums out of them. That's hardly mediocrity.
I would put him at least on equal talent with Button. It's a bit tricky to compare drivers, when one sits in a front-running car and one in a complete bag o' balls.
9th October 2012, 14:28
Firstgear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

We can use statistics like candy but the only one that really matters is what the points are at the end of the race.

This used to be the favorite line of the Schumacher fans around here.
What changed?
9th October 2012, 14:29
dj_bytedisaster

Well, first you'd have to find out where the Schumacher fans have buggered off to. Don't think there are too many left
9th October 2012, 14:31
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

I'm still not with you. Mediocre implies that a driver can't really make much of the car's potential. Massa last year - that was a mediocre showing. Rosberg has been at Williams and Mercedes neither of which has been any better than a midfield car, yet he squeezed a win and 7 podiums out of them. That's hardly mediocrity.
I would put him at least on equal talent with Button. It's a bit tricky to compare drivers, when one sits in a front-running car and one in a complete bag o' balls.

We have enough problems agreeing when they're in the same cars as this thread demonstrates :laugh:

It's only opinion and I fully accept yours of Nico is slightly higher than mine. I just don't think the Mercedes is as bad this year as everyone thinks and next year, we will see how Nico does compared to Lewis to detirmine whether the two current drivers are getting the maximum out of it.
9th October 2012, 14:33
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firstgear

This used to be the favorite line of the Schumacher fans around here.
What changed?

Best car, lapdog and number 1 status, replaced with car failures, age and rustiness :D
9th October 2012, 14:36
ShiftingGears

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

1F, 1F, 1F!!! F1, F1, F1!!!

We can use statistics like candy but the only one that really matters is what the points are at the end of the race.

2012: 93 - 43
2011: 89 - 76
2010: 142 - 72

Guess who's in the left and right column?

This is supposed to be THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIME according to some of his supporters. He does one good move in a race and they claim "He's still got it"!

Well since only the results count, I take it from your logic that you think Schumacher is the best driver of all time?

Quote:

When he first came on the scene, he was as exciting as Lewis but the on-track antics and the cheating has tainted his reputation. He has benefitted from the sort of advantage with cars that Vettel has for the last 3 years and should have retired a couple of years before he did the first time because he didn't have the pace and was inflated by Massa and Ferrari supporting him as the number 1.

Well he could've retired at the end of 2004, but then people would've claimed that he was scared of losing, and use that to justify their own opinion that he wasn't the greatest. We heard it at the end of 2006, with people claiming he was 'scared' of Raikkonen.

2006 was a fantastic championship battle, and Schumacher absolutely had the pace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

The first time since the early Bennetton days that he was on a level playing field within a team and he gets humilitated. Nico isn't all that and I'm sure people will bookmark this post to use if I'm wrong but next year, Lewis will comprehensivly beat him. Where does that leave Schumacher than? A driver that is supposed to be the best of all time but couldn't beat a mediocre team mate when the rules and machinery was even?

Pffff!

I knew that if Schumacher returned people would use every chance they had to denigrate him if the results were unlike his first career in F1. And there you go.

Saying he was never that great because he hasn't scored more points than Rosberg as a 41 year old, after three years away from F1 is just totally ridiculous.
9th October 2012, 15:07
heliocastroneves#3

Schumacher has accomplished so much in his F1 career, that he can "afford" it to put on mediocre results and still being called the most successful F1 driver ever. He really had chances to win a race this year but bad luck and with now having a mediocre car that's not gonna happen.
9th October 2012, 15:14
dj_bytedisaster

Well, Schumacher certainly isn't the same driver he was back in 2006, but age alone isn't the only thing. When he left he had the most nighly developed and most reliable car in the whole field not some wonky midfielder. The cars were still cars and not those comedy proportioned contraptions with narrow rearwings, a snowplow for a front wing and those chewing gum tires who drop 2 seconds a lap if you look at them cross-eyed.
F1 2012 requires a completely different skill set than 2006. Schumacher won many races by just driving the doors off his car, if he tried that in 2012, the Pirellis would die after lap 3.
9th October 2012, 16:20
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Maldonado reminds me of Jean Alesi. He has all the talent and speed you'd want in a driver, none of the brains.

I just loved Alesi in the Ferrari, just the kind of driver that's nice to see driving the red cars. Too bad all his Ferraris were dogs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Best car, lapdog and number 1 status, replaced with car failures, age and rustiness :D

He wasn't the number one driver at Benetton in 1991, yet he came and destroyed Piquet immediately. I still remember how Schumacher stayed with the leaders for much of the race in his underpowered Benetton in his very first race for the team at Monza. Simply the best driver of all time. Not one of my favourites though.
9th October 2012, 16:24
dj_bytedisaster

Quote:

Originally Posted by DexDexter

Too bad all his Ferraris were dogs.

Not neccessarily. They weren't exactly front-runners, but the '95 one - in which he finally won - was described as quite a nice car to drive - by M. Schumacher, when he tested it after joining Ferrari.
9th October 2012, 16:27
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Not neccessarily. They weren't exactly front-runners, but the '95 one - in which he finally won - was described as quite a nice car to drive - by M. Schumacher, when he tested it after joining Ferrari.

The car wasn't bad but a 3-liter V12 engine was never going to work. Just too peaky.
9th October 2012, 16:37
dj_bytedisaster

Well that's Ferrari for ya :) It just had to be a V12! I still remember the Tifosi's cries when they ditched the 12-pot.
9th October 2012, 16:42
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShiftingGears

Well since only the results count, I take it from your logic that you think Schumacher is the best driver of all time?

I said his supporters use that title, not me. I think he is the most successful driver and one of the best ever.

Quote:

Saying he was never that great because he hasn't scored more points than Rosberg as a 41 year old, after three years away from F1 is just totally ridiculous.

I never said he was never that great. It's not diffiult to read a post before quoting someone. I said he should have retired a couple of years before he did the first time. He was declining back then and only hs elevated position, compliant team mates and good cars kept him at the front.

Is that clearer?
9th October 2012, 16:52
dj_bytedisaster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

I never said he was never that great. It's not diffiult to read a post before quoting someone. I said he should have retired a couple of years before he did the first time. He was declining back then and only hs elevated position, compliant team mates and good cars kept him at the front.

Is that clearer?

It is clearer ;) But not neccessarily true. As I remember, he still had a chance to win title #8 in his very last race before the first retirement and that particular race went into the history books as one of his most memorable. He came out of the pits after Fisi had sliced his tire, just seconds from being lapped by his team mate and race leader Massa. He staged the biggest comeback since Lazarus and went on to 4th place. Hardly sounds like decline to me. And the 2005 and 2006 Ferrari's were by no means as dominant as their predeccessors. The Renault was just as good, if not better than the Ferrari. He might have lost a bit, which isn't really surprising if you are a competative athlete over 30, but his real decline only came, when he was away from F1.
9th October 2012, 17:57
Mekola

Quote:

Originally Posted by keysersoze

My all-time favorite Alex Zanardi lost to Ralf Schumacher, 33-0, in 1999. In qualifying, however, it was a bit closer--something like 12-5 in favor of the German.

In fact, if in 1999 was adopted the current point scoring system, Zanardi would have scored points. At least in his home GP.
9th October 2012, 18:54
Knock-on

If you insist DJ. It's only my opinion.
9th October 2012, 19:04
Garry Walker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

1F, 1F, 1F!!! F1, F1, F1!!!

We can use statistics like candy but the only one that really matters is what the points are at the end of the race.

2012: 93 - 43
2011: 89 - 76
2010: 142 - 72

Guess who's in the left and right column?

This is supposed to be THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIME according to some of his supporters. He does one good move in a race and they claim "He's still got it"!

When he first came on the scene, he was as exciting as Lewis but the on-track antics and the cheating has tainted his reputation. He has benefitted from the sort of advantage with cars that Vettel has for the last 3 years and should have retired a couple of years before he did the first time because he didn't have the pace and was inflated by Massa and Ferrari supporting him as the number 1.

The first time since the early Bennetton days that he was on a level playing field within a team and he gets humilitated. Nico isn't all that and I'm sure people will bookmark this post to use if I'm wrong but next year, Lewis will comprehensivly beat him. Where does that leave Schumacher than? A driver that is supposed to be the best of all time but couldn't beat a mediocre team mate when the rules and machinery was even?

Pffff!

Really, that post is not going to make you look too smart.
MS was awful by every standard in 2010. He was right on the pace of Nico in 2011 and in 2012, at least in qualifying, he has actually been the faster guy consistently. He has had awful luck due to car problems and he has made 2 stupid errors. All in all, at the moment he is not even slightly worse than Rosberg.
9th October 2012, 20:37
dj_bytedisaster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Really, that post is not going to make you look too smart.
MS was awful by every standard in 2010. He was right on the pace of Nico in 2011 and in 2012, at least in qualifying, he has actually been the faster guy consistently. He has had awful luck due to car problems and he has made 2 stupid errors. All in all, at the moment he is not even slightly worse than Rosberg.

Ok, I'm gonna mark that in my calendar. We actually agree on something. Although I wouldn't call it consistently. This year is the first since his comeback in which he actually has a positive balance in the quali duel and that's also only 8 to 6 or something, so he's up there, but 'consistently faster' is stretching it a bit. But he has steadily improved. What people tend to forget is, just how much F1 had changed over the three years of his hiatus. While the active drivers all were eased into the changes gradually. Schumacher got the massive changes of three seasons dumped on him in 2010. That car had barely anything to do with what he knew before. No wonder he needed two years to catch up.

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