Is the RRA just a waste of time?

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Q. RBR was continuously accused by other teams to break the RRA. Is this correct?

HM: No, because we abide by the agreement. We provided the consulting company that checked the situation with all data that we had to provide. However, they wanted to look further into details that were not part of the agreement and what we consequently refused. It is a fact that engine and KERS have to be counted separately. And how do you count people who work for gearbox and KERS of our customer Lotus (Caterham)? Who can say clearly who in Ferrari works for road car production or F1? How do you count the 400 staff at Mercedes performance engines?

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Q & A with Red Bull's Helmut Marko - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

I read this as Helmut admitting that teams knowingly break the spirit of the rules by hiding costs in tertiary activities and within their partners. Some organisations would find this harder to accomplish such as McLaren and Ferrari where's others may have greater opportunity and scope.

This is building up to a bit of an issue within FOTA. McLaren are playing with a straight bat as they have a pretty transparent operation while others may be able to get away with more by hiding behind parent companies or partners / partner teams.

Formula 1 team principals are hopeful the RRA can be saved - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

It's claimed by Martin Whitmarsh that this is Sabre rattling by some teams but if it isn't fair and equitable for all teams, I can see this being a real threat to FOTA.

It is a difficult to police idea, but was put in place for the right reasons.

The only reason it is an issue is due to BCE stirring things up in the background, knowing full well that negotiations for the new Concorde will go his way if the teams are divided, rather than all pulling in the same direction.

Yes.

I have the impression sometimes that when it comes to new rules, teams' main purpose is to restrict what others do while they focus on getting their way around them.

Are teams like McLaren really any cleaner in this regard? All the big teams are supplying things to other teams, and presumably those engineers are not part of the resource restriction agreement. Do we really think that if the group in McLaren working on kit for Force India made some suspension or gearbox improvement, it wouldn't find its way back to the McLaren car? Likewise Ferrari engineers working on parts supplied to Sauber or Torro Rosso.

I think because McLaren have so much in house that they have to be transparent otherwise it would show up :D

If they had a chance to get round it, I am 100% convinced they would :D However, they can't so they do the next best thing and try and stop others ;)

I'm not sure we really know, without the benefit of all data for comparison, whether one team is more transparent than another.

There was an interview with Saubers CEO who said that this year the RRA is not binding, or at least teams will not be punished for being above it. She claimed that this season all that was happening was that teams were being audited to test whether the auditing process could be trusted to measure team spending. Apparently if the audit process is fine then the RRA will be tested and teams punished for exceeding it from next season.

I always thought that it would be easy for any manufacturer affiliated team to dodge the RRA, but then most manufacturers have left and Mercedes say that they spend below the RRA so....

I thought it was binding but happy to accept it isn't this year if you say so.

As we know, all the top teams will manipulate their budgets so I can't see the point of the RRA unless it's to penalise a particular team in order to pull them back in line as and when needed.

Naw, that's a bit far fetched, isn't it :laugh:

If it's possible for Whyte and Mackay to suddenly start selling music CDs to get round alcohol adversising in Islamic countries, then it's entirely possible for a totally seperate company to be formed for R&D purposes who then give their technology - potentially at a loss - to a Formula One team. Any such regulation can be countered if one is devious enough. :)

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Any such regulation can be countered if one is devious enough. :)

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Umm, the Piranha club?

We have teams that deny they have power brakes and TC and the FIA prove they do have them in the Race car. Then we have the team swearing they can't be activated during the race and this is also proven to be a lie. We also have photographic proof of brakes rapidly flicking on and off mid corner and STILL the FIA claim there is not enough evidence of Benetton cheating and hand Schumacher a WDC.

If the FIA can manipulate evidence like this, does anyone really think the RRA has a hope in hell of succeeding within F1?

I have no doubt that Red Bull have completely ignored the RRA. So to have Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes. In fact, I think the only teams that haven't are the ones whose budgets are small enough to fit into the RRA regardless of what they do.

So to answer your question Knockie, yes I believe the RRA is a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

I have no doubt that Red Bull have completely ignored the RRA. So to have Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes. In fact, I think the only teams that haven't are the ones whose budgets are small enough to fit into the RRA regardless of what they do.

So to answer your question Knockie, yes I believe the RRA is a waste of time.

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Yep, that's what I think as well. I suspect that the reason McLaren are appearing to be so 'transparent' is that they don't have the opportunity to manipulate the rules as much as RBR, so are trying to limit the advantage they are getting instead. If McLaren (or any other team) could get away with more, I have no doubt they would because this rule is a load of bollox designed to give the FIA a lever (or big stick) in their 'negotiations'. This rule makes much less sense than Team Orders :s

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I think because McLaren have so much in house that they have to be transparent otherwise it would show up :D

If they had a chance to get round it, I am 100% convinced they would :D However, they can't so they do the next best thing and try and stop others ;)

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Yep the 2007 Spygate proved that McLaren are a transparent organization, almost as transparent as mud.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

I have no doubt that Red Bull have completely ignored the RRA. So to have Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes. In fact, I think the only teams that haven't are the ones whose budgets are small enough to fit into the RRA regardless of what they do.

So to answer your question Knockie, yes I believe the RRA is a waste of time.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep the 2007 Spygate proved that McLaren are a transparent organization, almost as transparent as mud.

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Just a Max vendetta. Max swore blind it was Ron that fitted him up for the spankygate case. In fact, turns out the gutter press were monitoring almost anything that moved, which proves Ron/McLaren had nowt to do with surveilance on Max. Max didn't like Ron - end of, and the farcical $100m fine on McLaren was his revenge. We know this, because of the almost indentical circumstances of McLaren info at Renault (the team remember, that cheated to get Fred a win) were barely given a slap on the wrist......

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Just a Max vendetta. Max swore blind it was Ron that fitted him up for the spankygate case. In fact, turns out the gutter press were monitoring almost anything that moved, which proves Ron/McLaren had nowt to do with surveilance on Max. Max didn't like Ron - end of, and the farcical $100m fine on McLaren was his revenge. We know this, because of the almost indentical circumstances of McLaren info at Renault (the team remember, that cheated to get Fred a win) were barely given a slap on the wrist......

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And it's also Max's fault that McLaren were a bunch of liars back then, I thought so. :\

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Originally Posted by ioan

And it's also Max's fault that McLaren were a bunch of liars back then, I thought so. :\

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Sorry, but I am unable to vouch forthe individuals involved - Alonso, De la Rosa, McLoucghlan, Stepney etc, so cannot possibly comment. One name their seems to pop up a lot where hooky goings on in F1 are concerned..... Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean? :p