How do you see the future of rally?

The rally season is al most over, what do you think about in future? After Wales all the official news of rallies can be very different than we expect.
There are many questions that many people do not dare to talk about it just now!
Here are some questions from me and you can come with your questions and possible answers.
Which teams will continue to rally in the future?
Which factory teams continue to rally in the future?
What new factory teams will run against Citroen or Volkswagen in the future?
Who will still sponsor rallies in the future?
Is there money for more drivers than a few drivers who are paid just now?
Are the current rally cars not too expensive?
What do you think about the future. Do you have questions and possible answers?

Bring it on and let us talk about your views. :s mokin:

Very good thread.
I still mantain that the WRC has got huge potential, more than any other Motorsport, due to variety of venues/countries visited. However, it needs to be managed properly – something which it has not happened over the last 10 years. The people running/involved in the sport need a dose of reality....
First, accept it’s not F1 – and don’t try to ape it! It could be a very successful 2nd Tier world sport, which is what the aim should be – and to become 2nd in popularity/prestige in Motorsport to F1.

Yes WRC and other rallys can have again a huge potential but it is high time that something will change.
As private and local drivers also had the chance as before to drive cheaper, the same cars as the current top drivers
It would have been more interest from the people, sponsors and TV.
I think Europe will definitely need this the next 10 years .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

Very good thread.
I still mantain that the WRC has got huge potential, more than any other Motorsport, due to variety of venues/countries visited. However, it needs to be managed properly – something which it has not happened over the last 10 years. The people running/involved in the sport need a dose of reality....
First, accept it’s not F1 – and don’t try to ape it! It could be a very successful 2nd Tier world sport, which is what the aim should be – and to become 2nd in popularity/prestige in Motorsport to F1.

---

+1 a good thread.
Which teams will be in in the future? Its dificult to say, but I wonder how much profit, if any, non factory teams make in a year? If they are making a loss, they can only do this for so long!
I think a good starting point for WRC to become more popular in the UK is the odd advert like Kris meekes( hes meeke, but not mild:-) and then grow from there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

. The people running/involved in the sport need a dose of reality....
First, accept it’s not F1 – .

---

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/...rallies-2.html

This page is full of one thing that WRC has and F1 doesn't have :D

I think that if all the wrc car had a standardized ecu set i.e no special maps for the works teams. The the private would have a better chance of winner and have a better chance of getting long term sponsors. i know that wouldnt make the sport any cheaper but it would make it a more even playing field.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gtimad73

I think that if all the wrc car had a standardized ecu set i.e no special maps for the works teams. The the private would have a better chance of winner and have a better chance of getting long term sponsors. i know that wouldnt make the sport any cheaper but it would make it a more even playing field.

---

then there would not be any manufacturers in the sport.....

The manufacturers are there to brag about having the best machines...if things were too equal then there would be no point in a manufacturer to enter.

but people are not watching the sport any more. so somethings got to be done to make people interested in it again. i don't really want to watch loeb win another 2 world championship because theres no cars to match the citroens. Surely if the private teams where contracted to bang on about how they won because ford,mini,citroen and so was the best car. they get there glory.

Which teams will continue to rally in the future?

VW will have a second team, something from Ford & PSA as well. I am not sure Mini will have an official arraignment due to finance

Which factory teams continue to rally in the future?

VW, Ford, Prodrive, maybe something from PSA

What new factory teams will run against Citroen or Volkswagen in the future?

Kia/Hyundai, maybe Subaru/Toyota. I don't think we will see any more new cars for at least 2 years.

Who will still sponsor rallies in the future?

Similar to how it is done now. If we go to Russia, China we will see some unfamiliar state owned car companies sponsoring the events.

Is there money for more drivers than a few drivers who are paid just now?

I don't think that it is a question of money. If the rules were different we would see 3 car team again.

Are the current rally cars not too expensive?

I am not sure how it could be made cheap. There will always be an element of cost in this sport.

Very very good questions BTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gtimad73

but people are not watching the sport any more. so somethings got to be done to make people interested in it again. i don't really want to watch loeb win another 2 world championship because theres no cars to match the citroens. Surely if the private teams where contracted to bang on about how they won because ford,mini,citroen and so was the best car. they get there glory.

---

the domination of Loeb would still be there i think....

Citroen didn't have the best car for 8 years in a row... but Loeb was the best driver for 8 years in a row.

And i think that rallying lost its appeal for other reasons apart from the domination of CItroen/Loeb, the major one i think is the way sports are presented nowadays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.T

then there would not be any manufacturers in the sport.....

---

History doesn't support your negativity N.O.T.
If we go right back to the Grp 1,2 & 4 days privateers rallied cars of identical specification to the factory drivers. In the Grp A & B days they did similarly. And many had success and rather than detract from the factory effort, they in fact shared in the glory.
There's no reason why it ought be any different today.

gtimad73, you are quite correct. Presently we have 4 drivers who theoretically can win (6 if you count Mini) and this must be a deterent to entry. A return to open access to competitive machinery can only be a good thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sollitt

History doesn't support your negativity N.O.T.
If we go right back to the Grp 1,2 & 4 days privateers rallied cars of identical specification to the factory drivers. In the Grp A & B days they did similarly. And many had success and rather than detract from the factory effort, they in fact shared in the glory.
There's no reason why it ought be any different today.

---

compare car sales and profits from the 70s-80s with car sales for today and you have your answer to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.T

compare car sales and profits from the 70s-80s with car sales for today and you have your answer to that.

---

That has nothing to do with the prospect of allowing privateers to run identical machinery as factory drivers. If anything such allowance would assist the cause for the manufacturer.
Examples exist today in circuit racing where the factory may fund the R&D and the homologation which is then available to allcomers. Which is exactly as it was in rallying until quite recently, not just the 70's & 80's.

If you want a current Fiesta WRCar.. there's only one place to go - M-Sport!! And that is wrong.....any prep company should be able to build a WRCar - like used to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

If you want a current Fiesta WRCar.. there's only one place to go - M-Sport!! And that is wrong.....any prep company should be able to build a WRCar - like used to be.

---

You are correct Andy, but even worse is that if you go to M-Sport with your money you still won't get the same spec car as the contracted drivers.

If more drivers could get into competitive machinery and actually compete, that may well provide incentive for more manufacturer interest in the sport.

Without live streams it's bad. Kids don't care for sport, only real fans. More works seats needed (with paid drivers, non paying).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sollitt

You are correct Andy, but even worse is that if you go to M-Sport with your money you still won't get the same spec car as the contracted drivers.

If more drivers could get into competitive machinery and actually compete, that may well provide incentive for more manufacturer interest in the sport.

---

I have to wonder if going (back?) to an actual manufacturer's championship (ie. if you finish in the points in a Ford, instead of your "Billy Bob's/Yellow Power Tool/Energy Drink World Rally Team" getting points, Ford gets points.) would help from that aspect - certainly seems like it would provide much less of an incentive for a car builder to handicap some of their cars.

But then, when they get around to showing the manufacturer leader board with only two or three entries on it, WRC/North One will have to own up to the fact that they really don't have much interest from some key players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndyRAC

If you want a current Fiesta WRCar.. there's only one place to go - M-Sport!! And that is wrong.....any prep company should be able to build a WRCar - like used to be.

---

My thoughts exactly!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Plan9

[/I][/B]I am not sure how it could be made cheap. There will always be an element of cost in this sport.

Very very good questions BTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

By a few rules we had for decades:
Minimum run of vehicles: xxxxxx units.
Make it 10,000

Gearbox: Series production gearbox..and diffs and driveshafts and CVs

You can sure as hell bet that within no time at all that every car would have a reliable enough box and diffs full of the right ratios and final drive and diffs.

The current teams would whine and cry and sniffle that they are all going to commit collective hari-kari cause they will claim it can't be done.

But high performance road bikes have absurdly wonderful amazingly reliable gearboxes and have had then 5-6 speed sequential boxes, for 40 years or more.
Free with every bike.

Oh. Standard hubs---and bodyshells, that would focus the attention on the insane suspension and shell costs.

This is basically waht original Group A was...

And ANYBODY could buy a new shell-in-white for under 1000 English squids.

Awesome thread Brother John! I can tell you as a relative newcomer to the sport, and spending quite a bit of the time learning the history of the series over the last couple of years, I feel the next five years are going to be very exciting indeed. I may not have the intimate knowledge of the technical history of the sport that some of you do but I can tell you I think the competition is closing up on Loeb and next year should be a barn-burner for sure! My biggest complaint with the WRC at this point is the quality of the coverage. I just can't rationalize waiting 3 weeks to watch ~75 mins of ESPN coverage and ~135 mins of MotorsTV coverage, it's just not enough! Not only from a sheer volume standpoint but from a technical and celebrity standpoint as well. I understand producing the coverage is expensive but I would rather have the amateurish web coverage we had on Rally France than nothing at all. For this sport to succeed, it's needs emotional investment in the drivers on the part of the fans. I need to know more about the individual drivers, their personalities, their cars, their co-drivers, etc. I can say as an "outsider", that this forum takes as awfully harsh stance with a sport that I am so envious you have to enjoy. To some extent I feel it is taken for granted and growing up with the sport has given some a sense of nostalgia that is not quite objective. I know you all love the sport and have things you would like to change but for me, I see the future of WRC going nowhere but up! I dream of one day saving enough money to make it to Rally Finland but that will probably remain just a dream!

You're absolutely correct John.
The move away from the homologated model into the World Rally Car format was good in theory but in practice the costs to be competitive have skyrocketed.
Another drawback has been the resultant lack of 2WD homologations as thesse have ceased to be necessary.

I love to read your opinions here, it's also good to get to know each other more here on the forum. http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/icons/icon14.png
It would be wonderful if the FIA would listen to real rally fans.
Personally I think this problem is currently the same as the current world politics.

But back to the rallysport now.
Of course we can not go back to how it was in the past but we saw many more candidates at that time in a position to become a top rally driver in the future.

We, too, the fans have certainly to complain not in modern times that we can follow almost everything live. Earlier maybe we could read in the newspaper on Monday who had won the rally. The only people who you could talk about rally were members in a motorsport club or association.

Thanks again for your ideas and opinions here about the rally sport.
Hopefully I can see many members return back to the rally forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barreis

Without live streams it's bad. Kids don't care for sport, only real fans. More works seats needed (with paid drivers, non paying).

---

I agree there has to be more live streaming, the trial they did this year was excellent. But they also need to get it on mainstream channels, and get bbc sport/sky news (and who ever it is in your country) covering it again.

In my opinion the Rally sport need to be simplified.

Tech regs WRC: Keep the, simple so that the end product can be bought and maintained by privateers, without using your own millions or millions of you keep chasing sponsors for. All data should be Open, for those who buy a car. If we in 2016 or something go down 3-5 sec pr km, not many would notice, but more could participate. In a few years we would be back up to level again anyway...

Tech regs Regional and national layers: Make 4 classes. 2 in 2 wd and 2 in 4 wd - kill the rest. They are to be called Tuned and untuned 2 and 4 wd classes, as in Sweden. All could be 1600 cc, with and without turbo. Most non petrol-heads understand that.

Better coverage online: Further develop the services that allows people to follow rally online.

Better coverage on TV: Same as above. More outside cameras, and use of helicopters. Use of split picture with telemetry data for those interested, and comparison of two cars.

In WRC it should be two layers, one factory and one for private teams. Private teams need to go to 50% of WRC rounds to keep cost down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sulland

In my opinion the Rally sport need to be simplified.

---

With most of what you say I agree with you Sulland but that will not be easy for the FIA ​​to get this far!

Given the struggle that the EU is having at the moment I think it will be difficult to see any more manufacturers in the sport and could expect one Citroen to drop out at the end of Loebs contract. Ford aren;t even committed to next year yet and Mini are talking about another development season.

A common union is a really good idea to me, but the common currency makes it difficult.

I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but what happens if there is 1 manufacturer left in the sport?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 6789

Given the struggle that the EU is having at the moment I think it will be difficult to see any more manufacturers in the sport and could expect one Citroen to drop out at the end of Loebs contract. Ford aren;t even committed to next year yet and Mini are talking about another development season.

A common union is a really good idea to me, but the common currency makes it difficult.

I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but what happens if there is 1 manufacturer left in the sport?

---

Nobody knows now, we do not yet know for 2012 what car will drive and who will drave with those cars that will be at the start of Monte Carlo.

^ Yeah hope for the best, hopefully there are four manu's in the sport come 2013 and 2014.

something interesting about the costs, start watching at 7:40 min. The Vatanen Touch

so it´s the same problem now since almost 40 years ;) costs are high in motorsport, it´s the same now then it was back then. of course we talk about mutch more money today but in relation to what money is worth now and what it was worth in the 70´s it´s probably not a big difference...

;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstar

something interesting about the costs, start watching at 7:40 min. The Vatanen Touch

so it´s the same problem now since almost 40 years costs are high in motorsport, it´s the same now then it was back then. of course we talk about mutch more money today but in relation to what money is worth now and what it was worth in the 70´s it´s probably not a big difference...

---

Now you hear this from someone who has money now, how was it 20 years ago?
Besides, he drove in that videa with a private team. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstar

something interesting about the costs, start watching at 7:40 min. The Vatanen Touch

so it´s the same problem now since almost 40 years ;) costs are high in motorsport, it´s the same now then it was back then. of course we talk about mutch more money today but in relation to what money is worth now and what it was worth in the 70´s it´s probably not a big difference...

---

Ganz fehl
I began working on rally cars in early 80s. And continue till now. Like 0130 last night making parts for a panic job.
I know the shell prep costs in the 70s because that is what we were doing in '84-85. And by the end of 80s it was more serious in just say shell prep. Ford Motorsport said in their great book "How to Prepare the Sierra for Motorsport" it took then about 100 man/hours for cage and shell prep (stitch weld)...
When the World Rally car rules came in, the costs for the most basic part, the shell JUMPED! to make a fwd shell into a AWD shell.
And in the 00ies when the long LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG suspension came on the scene, the cost to completely by hand fabricate the whole wheelhousings front and rear and do current cage was said by somebody at Ford or Mini to be "500 man/hours".
So, even if labor and materials cost the same--and they don't----that is 500% more time.

Now in the early 80s if I bought shocks for customer Opel or for my Saab, 4 rally Bilstein shocks and 4 hi quality Swedish cost under USD500.
Seit 2003 I manufacture rally suspension aimed at CLUB guys and a typical car set costs USD2000 here and the same exact thing in say Sweden from Janne Sellholm cost twice that.

A MkII Group 4 Escort in the 70s WRC used the same 40mm Bilstein inserts as I use today for most. Cost is up 400% for that one part.
(and in general all costs are up around ca 300% since the mid 70s)

But a works car today does not use the same thing as a WRC Escort then or a clubbie car in little old USA.
Their suspension costs more than $15,000. It is 100 times or more expensive.
The Gp4 Escort used a standard road car spindle at the bottom of the strut, maybe 6 Pounds English then.
The current cars have fabricated uprights costing thousands, CV joints (gleichlaufgelenk weisst du) and axles costing GBP 2000 for second hand

A gearbox for the ZF box cost several hundred Pounds in the 70s and many club level guys bought them then. A geabox today is 30,000-100,000 GBP or who knows.
200 times more expensive AND only 20 made maybe.

To barrow a phrase from yet another idiot Republican over here running for President "Nein Nein Nein" Things are orders of multitudes more expensive than in the 70s or early 80s, dozens of times more costly in constant dollars/Pounds/D mark usw than the late 80s/early 90s


Total entry numbers bear this out too and also WHO is participating.

Maybe if Citroen, Ford and Mini are not fully committed to 2012 we will see something like the early 1990s where not every manufacturer turned up to every event, or at least not with an factory car?

[quote="Plan9"]Maybe if Citroen, Ford and Mini are not fully committed to 2012 we will see something like the early 1990s where not every manufacturer turned up to every event, or at least not with an factory car?[/QUOTE]

Group A :up:

While I agree with a lot of points made here, the majority are negative.
I think the introduction of the powerstage is the best idea for the sport in years.

Outside of Europe I see rallying becoming very bleak. We've had a fair amount of growth in Asia and the Pacific over the last few years (excluding Australia), however this growth is going to go to waste, and become a European game. Reason why this is was because we moved away from Group A regulations. What does Group A have to do with screwing up the sport in the Asia Pacific. Simple...

We should have tried to go back to Group A
The abolishment of Group A meant that manufacturers like Toyota, Subaru and Mitsubishi who had built road cars for Group A are not valid in today's market due to no Group A. After a while even Subaru and Mitsubishi are stopping production of the Impreza WRX STI (in favour of a 1.6 WRX STI) and the Lancer Evolution is going completely. Now all of you Europeans aren't going to find that a problem, however, in the Asia-Pacific it is going to be a massive problem. European car manufacturers hold most of the homologation for the 2WD cars. No Japanese manufacturers are doing that. And European cars in this region won't work as they only hold a tiny percent of the market. This means we're going to end up with another region, along with Canada/USA who have non FIA cars running around at the top. Absolutely pointless. The FIA either need to relax their rules to allow the building of 2WDs like Group A was run, where you could turn up in any car which complied with the rules and not so much of this homologation-crud. We had no Aussies running at Rally Australia pretty much as we don't go with FIA anymore (a big mistake), but we can't get manufacturer involvement with the current car rules set by the FIA, because these manufacturers hardly make up any market share in the Asia-Pacific region (apart from Subaru and Mitsubishi).

Really, the FIA lost their way on the rule changes for this year. We should have been seeing a Group A style championship. The hot hatch currently rules the roost in world markets, yet we still don't have something remotely similar on the stages. We have a Countryman instead of a Cooper JCW. DS3 and Polo are about right, but they still don't have that road car element. It could have potentially saved Mitsubishi and Subaru's cars, and possibly made the PWRC a lot cheaper like it was back in the late 90s, as well as making the step up to the top level a lot easier for national runners. S2000 nor this 1.6 Turbo kit car thing does this element as well as they are still expensive cars you really need to buy from an M-Sport, Prodrive etc.

Finally at a national level, I do not think that the spectacle of the sport should eventually become a bunch of front wheel drive cars with limited power. The Honda Civic and Renault Clio are great don't get me wrong, but it isn't the same, and not as exciting on gravel.

So I don't see the sport getting anywhere outside of Europe with these regulations which are in place.

You are right. In NZ they are just running old PWRC spec cars and are kind of boring to watch now that you have seen them for about 6-8 years in a row. I am not sure how we can improve down here either but we have been running some older Fiesta s2000s that have become quite popular. I think that the R2,3 cars could do okay but as you say there is not a big audience for Renaults just yet; although they are quite cheap here.

I hear what you're saying Mitch, in fact I've been telling our decision makers much the same for some years, so I agree with most of it. However, whether or not the future is bleak (and it needn't be) is dependant on the decisions made by promoters and administrators.
Following the FIA is fine to a point but it makes little sense if all the homologations don't reflect your domestic scene. In a land where the market is almost entirely Japanese, why would you promote a category of European machinery?

Rallying in Australia & New Zealand owes little, if anything, to the WRC. In fact it's sole purpose in recent years is to provide fuel for the chest puffing of our gravy train riding past presidents.
The sooner we ditch it and begin promoting something regionally that relates more to our domestic scenes the better off we'd all be. Not only will it serve our competitors better but we'd make far better fist of it than the dreary old FIA.

Plan9, I don't know whether I agree with your description of "old PWRC cars". In fact we run up to the minute GrpN. And yes, for the most part it is boring but the competitors seem to like it.
The Fiesta's were never popular. Only 5 have ever existed and seldom more than 2 or 3 turned out at a time, and they only attract drivers because of the big overseas prize on offer.
Rally cars should look & sound like race cars. Let's be honest, both the Fiesta's, R1 & R2 are about as exciting as kumquat soup. R3 has the goods but at $150K a go, for 2WD, who's going to run one?

For S2000, the FIA allowed a 'regional homologation'. If they could do it for S2000 they can do it for all formula and permit their usage in all levels of event. That might get some wheels turning.

Maybe the real problem with cost will go away if we kill the manufacturer championship?Then simplify the tech regs and leave the building to private tuning firms!



The really interessting thing with the Escort Gr 4 example, is that that is the car every driver still love to drive, and we love to look at.
That should tell fia something.......

janvanvurpa: While I basically agree with You I can see difficulties to get such logical ideas into the reality of today.

I'm working in car industry (aircondition development for many car brands, myself working on Ford projects). From what I can see the car manufacturer world is now different than in 70' and 80' when the cars were originals, there were services able to repair something - not just the common way of today when modules are just replaced by new ones without thinking what is wrong. Cars were not made of same cheap parts produced by millions and shared by half of the global market. There were no automatic production lines which are not suitable for small productions of performance cars. There were simpler standards and requirements about safety, ecology etc. which leads to very complicated and expensive testing of anything new which on the other hand must be made in largest possible quantity and as simple and cheap as possible to get the cost back.

The production principles got to the state that they are so effective that in result it is way cheaper for manufacturer to separate sport from production completely. Rather than lightly modify a stock car with all the risk in putting something new in the moving colossus of serial project You choose to build a completely new hi-tech hand-made car as in result it is both more performance-effective and cheaper.

Unfortunately I don't see getting back to gr.A-like principles possible. The big players will keep rules suitable for their business...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sollitt

I hear what you're saying Mitch, in fact I've been telling our decision makers much the same for some years, so I agree with most of it. However, whether or not the future is bleak (and it needn't be) is dependant on the decisions made by promoters and administrators.
Following the FIA is fine to a point but it makes little sense if all the homologations don't reflect your domestic scene. In a land where the market is almost entirely Japanese, why would you promote a category of European machinery?

Rallying in Australia & New Zealand owes little, if anything, to the WRC. In fact it's sole purpose in recent years is to provide fuel for the chest puffing of our gravy train riding past presidents.
The sooner we ditch it and begin promoting something regionally that relates more to our domestic scenes the better off we'd all be. Not only will it serve our competitors better but we'd make far better fist of it than the dreary old FIA.

Plan9, I don't know whether I agree with your description of "old PWRC cars". In fact we run up to the minute GrpN. And yes, for the most part it is boring but the competitors seem to like it.
The Fiesta's were never popular. Only 5 have ever existed and seldom more than 2 or 3 turned out at a time, and they only attract drivers because of the big overseas prize on offer.
Rally cars should look & sound like race cars. Let's be honest, both the Fiesta's, R1 & R2 are about as exciting as kumquat soup. R3 has the goods but at $150K a go, for 2WD, who's going to run one?

For S2000, the FIA allowed a 'regional homologation'. If they could do it for S2000 they can do it for all formula and permit their usage in all levels of event. That might get some wheels turning.

---

I'm unsure that anyone outside the Paddons, Masons and Gilmours have the latest gear from Europe?

The formula is Group N. Since when has it been regionally based? The homologated parts are the homologated parts regardless of where they originate and you can be quite sure that, with the commitment & competitiveness of the NZRC, those guys are using the very best componentry they can source. Of the three you mention, as far as I'm aware, only Mason's car is a European product. There are others in the country but regardless, a car out of NAM or PBM or any number of other workshops is every bit the measure of Group N machinery anywhere.
That is exactly the point being made by janvanverpa and others about Group A. Return to a formula where the rules are the rules, the parts are either legal or they're not, and let anybody with the ability and inclination get on and build an eligible car.