Martin Holmes in GPWeek

GP Week

Check it out on pg. 54.

Holmes has been consistently critical of the current promoters, and now he's come out opposed to the FIA as well, criticising the recent moves to night stages (at least on dry gravel), long distances (Rally GB this year) and mixed stages (Argentina this year).

I don't mind long distances. I think we got to the stage where the cloverleaf format was seriously constraining organisers - eg. RallyNZ, who in 2006 - 2008 moved to stages south of Hamilton and used what I consider to be a less-than-idea route, certainly for spectators. However, I think we've reached a decent compromise by allowing remote services again, and the last running of Rally NZ ticked nearly all the boxes for me.

I think Holmes has a point with night stages on dry gravel. Shouldn't happen.

Does he have a point with mixed stages? In Argentina, El Condor was clearly an unsafe stage and should not be run again in that format, though Latvala's time through the first running of the stage deserves to be remembered. Does that mean that mixed stages are bad, however? Would the stage have been any less safe had the road been exactly the same except for being made of gravel? I don't think so. However, I don't enjoy seeing ungainly cars struggle over a section of road that they haven't been set up for (unless it's at Monte Carlo, which is a bit different since it's due to the weather and an integral part of the event), so perhaps Holmes' point is valid.

Did you also read that GPWeek has now been bought out by the Russian guy who owns North One Sport, CSI or something. Independance gone in GPWeek in favour of the wrc/ north one sport cororate line. I hope not.

Usually I like his articles but this time he has taken a lot of things out from the context and reached to very wrong conclusions in many cases (just my view). In Argentina it was just the fact that there was no better tarmac road available to join 2 gravel stages. 3 minutes caps in night stages in gravel rally, I do not see much problem, even if they are going to reverse top 15 drivers.
I can understand that he does not like that his workday is not from 8-17 anymore :-P

who is martin holmes ?? does he have any connection with the FIA ??

Journalist, usually with quite good ideas and critical thinking/writing.

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Originally Posted by MJW

Did you also read that GPWeek has now been bought out by the Russian guy who owns North One Sport, CSI or something. Independance gone in GPWeek in favour of the wrc/ north one sport cororate line. I hope not.

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I hope not either. It would seem strange to buy a magazine that is mainly dominated by F1/ MotoGP - the WRC is very much the 3rd place in importance. Saying that, it has been done before - remember Rallycourse?? A great annual - taken over by NorthOne, edited by David Evans for one edition, before being discontinued.

As for Martin Holmes - a fine journalist - though actually I don't completely agree with his article this week. The cloverleaf format is stale, and has taken Rallying too far from the 'Endurance' element.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

who is martin holmes ?? does he have any connection with the FIA ??

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Guess you know, but if not; he has been writing this one for the past 33 years: juwra.com**|**Literature - Martin Holmes - Pirelli World Rallying 33

the question remains ...

Who is Martin holmes ???

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Originally Posted by bluuford

Journalist, usually with quite good ideas and critical thinking/writing.

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Also co-driver of Timo Mäkinen, Ove Andersson, Jean Ragnotti, Shekhar Mehta, John Haugland, Chris Sclater, Billy Coleman and many others.

He's on the money I think. We older folk might remember the rallying of the 70's with some fondness but that doesn't necessarily make it a good fit today.
The major point that Holmes is making is not specifically about any one issue but rather he's using the issues to emphasise how change for it's own sake is not always good.
When Todt came into power we all thought he was the Messiah with talk of rejuvinating a dying WRC. The truth is he's just as dangerous and dictatorial as those who went before him.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Also co-driver of Timo Mäkinen, Ove Andersson, Jean Ragnotti, Shekhar Mehta, John Haugland, Chris Sclater, Billy Coleman and many others.

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He asked who is he not who he was :-) I think he was co-driver for over ten different drivers, if I am not mistaken?

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Originally Posted by sollitt

The major point that Holmes is making is not specifically about any one issue but rather he's using the issues to emphasise how change for it's own sake is not always good.
When Todt came into power we all thought he was the Messiah with talk of rejuvinating a dying WRC. The truth is he's just as dangerous and dictatorial as those who went before him.

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We can firstly question why was WRC dying...immediatly comes to mind all the changes occured in mid 90's in order to accomplish Mr. Richards promises of larger media coverage.

Those (unnacomplished) promisses led to uncharacteristic rallys and killed much of WRC nature and glamour, forged during decades by an exciting mixture of chalenging elements based on an endurance spirit.

Bringing back those elements, like night stages or mixed surface courses, can only be seen as positive and even the economical issues arouse by extended rally routes could be resolved with an effective control of WRC cars engineering design.

Manufactureurs economic resources could be easily transferred to extended courses budgets with a contained and stable technical regulation and there's always less expensive solutions in order to keep runing privateers alongside factory teams.

Surely Mr. Todt isn´t the Messiah, but until now we can fairly judge him as a very decent prophet...

Who? And do we care?

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Originally Posted by GigiGalliNo1

Who? And do we care?

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The matter of Holmes' identity has already been answered. And are you asking "us" if "we" care? Perhaps you can see the people in the thread who have already posted opinions and decide for yourself. What about you? Who are you? Do you care? Have you read the article? Have you read this thread?

MJW: I think it'd be a shame if we lost GPWeek's independent WRC coverage. Here in little old New Zealand there isn't much other than the occasional newspaper article - and, let's be honest, that's not usually worthwhile journalism.

Andy: Perhaps the cloverleaf format is stale. I think the teams make a big deal of being able to host corporate guests at service parks, etc. But service parks aren't the most glamorous places, certainly not the equivalent of an F1 paddock at a place like Monaco. Even the Monte doesn't tend to spend much time at Monte Carlo itself, these days. Rallying should be able to reach large amounts of fans by having long routes that visit many districts. Corporate guests might be better entertained at a glamourous cafe overlooking a stage through a town than at a muddy service park in the middle of the countryside.

However, the reality is that service parks are better than unlimited servicing between stages, and as long as service parks remain rallies will be somewhat 'cloverleafed.' And routes should be designed with the dedicated spectator in mind, enabling him/her to see most of a rally without having to resort to measures like having to camp in a different place each night, or drive extreme distances.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Bringing back those elements, like night stages or mixed surface courses, can only be seen as positive and even the economical issues arouse by extended rally routes could be resolved with an effective control of WRC cars engineering design.

Manufactureurs economic resources could be easily transferred to extended courses budgets with a contained and stable technical regulation and there's always less expensive solutions in order to keep runing privateers alongside factory teams.

Surely Mr. Todt isn´t the Messiah, but until now we can fairly judge him as a very decent prophet...

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I think Holmes objects to the safety issue presented by the combination of dust and headlights such as those used by WRC cars at night, which is fair.

Sorry, I take my comment back.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

who is martin holmes ?? does he have any connection with the FIA ??

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Is it a joke or you are too young?
:-)
Just a figure for you: almost 450 WRC events covered as a photographer (so he has seen cars on action, not like new journalists), journalist or codriver (for example, Jean Ragnotti)

This guy acts like the holy cow of rallying...

WHO IS MARTIN HOLMES ????

Who is N.O.T.????

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Originally Posted by sollitt

He's on the money I think. We older folk might remember the rallying of the 70's with some fondness but that doesn't necessarily make it a good fit today.
The major point that Holmes is making is not specifically about any one issue but rather he's using the issues to emphasise how change for it's own sake is not always good.
When Todt came into power we all thought he was the Messiah with talk of rejuvinating a dying WRC. The truth is he's just as dangerous and dictatorial as those who went before him.

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Have to say I disagree. As others have said, why is the WRC in such a poor state? Because of the changes which took it away from the successful series it was.

Take Rally Australia for instance..... in the past it used to go about as far as York in the east, harvey in the south (actually I think it went as far as Collie but can't confirm) and of course you had the bunnings stages to the South East. You had fantastic stages like Muresk, York Railway, Wellington dam and others which made for a fantastic event with unique and differing stages. Somewhere like Perth simply couldn't host a proper event without remote or chase servicing. The problem is that the FIA chose a one size fits all approach to evens when depending on where you are in the world, the situation is very different. I don't know the area around Monte Carlo for instance, but I can imagine a cloverleaf even probably doesn't effect things all that much.

I think the FIA need to look at the sport as a whole now and back in 2002 or so when it was at its last peak and see what changes were made, whether they've had a negative effect and whether those changes can be reversed. I know manufacturers will complain about the cost of running longer liaison's and stage mileages but the marketing value of their spend will surely be better if the sport is seen to present a real challenge rather than being like a rally sprint.

Having been to only 1 Rally NZ, 1 Rally GB and a couple of Rally Finland's I can't possibly comment on how the changes have affected those events for good or for bad. IIRC after the cloverleaf system was rigidly enforced which meant loads more repeated stages and "rally villages", spectator numbers fell at Rally Australia because people didn't want to go to a "rally village" where they could see two stages within a few hundred metres of each other, they wanted to see quality stages rather than seeing a higher quantity of stages.

Who is this Mirek fellow I keep hearing about?

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Who is N.O.T.????

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Greek Rally Champion.... don't you know anything? :p