Ferrari - Does F1 need them?

So as not to pollute the BBC thread and with a respectful request that the admins move posts from that thread regarding this topic into this one.

Personally, I feel Ferrari need F1 but F1 would easily survive the departing of Ferrari.

Ferrari fans are first and foremost motorracing enthusiasts. This is what we all are. If McLaren left in the morning I would not stop watching F1. There may be some out there that would but on the overall I can't imagine the hit being anywhere near as much as some people imagine.

As I said in other thread, Ferrari needs F1 far more than F1 needs Ferrari.

Your thoughts?

I'm sure the usual unrealistic fans will claim that F1 will implode and fade into the dusk if Ferrari left but the fact is that it would be sad but F1 will go on regardless.

Who knows, it might make F1 better?

Ferrari are an evocative brand, and I'm sure they play a part in tempting some people into following the sport. But if we continue to have racing such as we've seen recently, coupled with "Big" personalities, I'm sure F1 would survive without them.

Yes, F1 needs Ferrari. They are the only manufacturer to compete in every championship since inception and the only car company that sells road cars purely to fund its racing programs. F1 would carry on without them, but would be poorer for it. Don't underestimate the importance of Brand Names.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

They are ... the only car company that sells road cars purely to fund its racing programs.

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I'm not entirely sure this is true any more. Back in the days of old man Enzo yes, but now?

Other than that, Ferrari should be in an F1 world championship.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

As I said in other thread, Ferrari needs F1 far more than F1 needs Ferrari.

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That's always been my opinion. Ferrari, as a road car manufacturer, would not be the same without their association with F1. I believe Enzo built road cars as a means to an end i.e. to fund racing, so were Ferrari to walk away from F1 I believe their brand would suffer more than F1 as a result.

However, the sport would be the poorer for Ferrari's absence.

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Originally Posted by Matthew

I'm not entirely sure this is true any more. Back in the days of old man Enzo yes, but now?

Other than that, Ferrari should be in an F1 world championship.

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I saw an interview on telly about 2 years back and Monty confirmed that they still sell road cars to fund their racing programs. I think it is slowly shifting though.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

F1 would carry on without them, but would be poorer for it.

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This!

The 458 vs. MP4-12C face off sums it up.

What the British reviewers agree is that the McLaren is the superior car but the Ferrari wins out on account of its greater emotional depth.

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Originally Posted by wedge

The 458 vs. MP4-12C face off sums it up.

What the British reviewers agree is that the McLaren is the superior car but the Ferrari wins out on account of its greater emotional depth.

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True. But even though I am a Ferrari fan, I would much rather have the Macca. Can't wait to see the new Macca GT version race car in action next month :)

No team, or individual is indispensable to any sport, so F1 could survive without Ferrari, it would just be a very different spectacle.
Ferrari's appeal to many is their competitive record. Through good, bad, or indifferent seasons, they have answered the green flag for world championship races. This is where they differ from all their rivals, no matter how many titles and records achieved, they can be counted to show up for the next race. In one of their very worst periods, 1982-83, they still bagged consecutive World Constructors titles, despite losing two drivers permanently and relying on 5 all together. By comparison this equals total WCC wins for Brabham and Cooper, venerable rivals who have both retired from the fray.

Ferrari certainly doesn't need F1 in order to sell production cars. They have won enough championships to rest on their record for decades to come, after all, what most of their competitors do. At Le Mans, despite not competing officially for 35 years, their record of 9 wins was just passed by Audi last week, relegating them to 3rd place. In the GT category, they won their class as recently as 2009.

Despite threatening to leave F1 at different times since 1950, Ferrari have missed only a handful of races. I don't expect them to leave now, and certainly hope that they continue to race. This is what they are all about.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

So as not to pollute the BBC thread and with a respectful request that the admins move posts from that thread regarding this topic into this one.

Personally, I feel Ferrari need F1 but F1 would easily survive the departing of Ferrari.

Ferrari fans are first and foremost motorracing enthusiasts. This is what we all are. If McLaren left in the morning I would not stop watching F1. There may be some out there that would but on the overall I can't imagine the hit being anywhere near as much as some people imagine.

As I said in other thread, Ferrari needs F1 far more than F1 needs Ferrari.

Your thoughts?

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I agree on the whole.

F1 will carry on who ever left the sport, but I believe the presence of Ferrari is a help not a hinderence.

However nearly all fans would still follow and watch F1.

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Originally Posted by Retro Formula 1

I'm sure the usual unrealistic fans will claim that F1 will implode and fade into the dusk if Ferrari left but the fact is that it would be sad but F1 will go on regardless.

Who knows, it might make F1 better?

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It may do, but I don't see Ferrari leaving in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Ferrari are an evocative brand, and I'm sure they play a part in tempting some people into following the sport. But if we continue to have racing such as we've seen recently, coupled with "Big" personalities, I'm sure F1 would survive without them.

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Yep agree.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

That's always been my opinion. Ferrari, as a road car manufacturer, would not be the same without their association with F1. I believe Enzo built road cars as a means to an end i.e. to fund racing, so were Ferrari to walk away from F1 I believe their brand would suffer more than F1 as a result.

However, the sport would be the poorer for Ferrari's absence.

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This is correctly stated. Very good post.

F1 could continue even if many teams left the sport, as long as other teams were willing to come into the mix. This applies to Ferrari the same it applies to Virgin IMO. To think that the sport wouldn't survive without them is rather strange, but I'll agree that the sport would be poorer without Ferrari, or for that matter any of the upper level teams.

Ferrari as a road car manufacturer could survive without F1, but the brand image would suffer somewhat. I'd have to agree that Ferrari needs F1 more than F1 needs Ferrari.

Let's ask this question as though it were 1980... Lotus - Does F1 need them?
Let's ask this question as though it were 1952... Alfa Romeo - Does F1 need them?
Let's ask this question as though it were 1957... Mercedes-Benz - Does F1 need them?

Formula One not only does survive if some of the teams with a rich racing tradition leave, but it does so almost forgetting their memory once they've gone. If Ferrari were to leave, then we'd feel a bit sad for their leaving, then after about the French GP of that season, move on.

Formula One would survive without Ferrari but would Ferrari survive without Formula One? Probably. They'd almost certainly lose their lustre though, just like Jaguar did when it left sports car racing or Maserati did when it left F1.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Let's ask this question as though it were 1980... Lotus - Does F1 need them?
Let's ask this question as though it were 1952... Alfa Romeo - Does F1 need them?
Let's ask this question as though it were 1957... Mercedes-Benz - Does F1 need them?

Formula One not only does survive if some of the teams with a rich racing tradition leave, but it does so almost forgetting their memory once they've gone. If Ferrari were to leave, then we'd feel a bit sad for their leaving, then after about the French GP of that season, move on.

Formula One would survive without Ferrari but would Ferrari survive without Formula One? Probably. They'd almost certainly lose their lustre though, just like Jaguar did when it left sports car racing or Maserati did when it left F1.

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The problem with your example is that none of those teams had even a fraction of the fan base that Ferrari enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that all three combined didn't have the fan base that Ferrari did and do. Besides, things were a lot different in 1980, let alone the 1950's.

Yes F1 would survive as the sport is bigger than any one team. Perhaps the question is more a case of which team would F1 miss the most? I think the answer is Ferrari.

Personally, I doubt I would keep more than a passing interest in F1 if Ferrari were to leave. I've been supporting them for over 20 years. I simply couldn't switch my allegiance to another team and I've never supported drivers. The Ferrari drivers only ever had my support while they drove for Maranello.

Without a team to support, and therefore something to keep me emotionally invested, my interest would wane. I have no real interest in the WRC now that Subaru are gone for example. Take away a persons emotional investment in a sport and what's to keep them coming back?

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

The problem with your example is that none of those teams had even a fraction of the fan base that Ferrari enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that all three combined didn't have the fan base that Ferrari did and do. Besides, things were a lot different in 1980, let alone the 1950's.

Yes F1 would survive as the sport is bigger than any one team. Perhaps the question is more a case of which team would F1 miss the most? I think the answer is Ferrari.

Personally, I doubt I would keep more than a passing interest in F1 if Ferrari were to leave. I've been supporting them for over 20 years. I simply couldn't switch my allegiance to another team and I've never supported drivers. The Ferrari drivers only ever had my support while they drove for Maranello.

Without a team to support, and therefore something to keep me emotionally invested, my interest would wane. I have no real interest in the WRC now that Subaru are gone for example. Take away a persons emotional investment in a sport and what's to keep them coming back?

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Racing?

That's why I watch F1. Racing entertainment. F1 is first of all a show and that's why it would very much survive Ferrari's departure. It all comes down to entertainment in the end.

My favourite team are McLaren but I can say for definite that should they leave the sport I would keep watching and going to races because I love the F1 spectacle as a whole.

That's a good point Hawk. There are obviously going to be people that decide not to watch F1 because a particular team leaves and some Ferrari fans wouldn't consider F1 to be worthwhile without the Prancing Horse but I would hope that most true race fans would remain. Less dedicated fans will probably just carry on watching for the spectacle as normal as the history and nostalgia is secondary to the entertainment. Therefore, the actual impact on the sport would be minimal.

Lets just hope that it never happens though as it would be a sad day if we lost you weird and wonderful, myopic, single-minded Tifosi ;) :D

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Racing?

That's why I watch F1. Racing entertainment. F1 is first of all a show and that's why it would very much survive Ferrari's departure. It all comes down to entertainment in the end.

My favourite team are McLaren but I can say for definite that should they leave the sport I would keep watching and going to races because I love the F1 spectacle as a whole.

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Thats pretty similar to my view as well. I support McLaren but also have a soft spot for Williams and Force India. However, even if these teams left, I would still watch F1 and support other teams.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Racing?

That's why I watch F1. Racing entertainment. F1 is first of all a show and that's why it would very much survive Ferrari's departure. It all comes down to entertainment in the end.

My favourite team are McLaren but I can say for definite that should they leave the sport I would keep watching and going to races because I love the F1 spectacle as a whole.

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At the risk of speaking for others, I think most people need more than just the sport itself. It's why the home town football team has the support of the locals. It's why people support drivers from their own countries. People need to feel some kind of connection to those they support.

What your're talking about, watching F1 simply for the racing, sounds completely souless to me (no offense intended). I bet F1 fans in Britain were much happier than their counterparts in Germany after Canada, despite the fact that both had witnessed a great race. Why? Becuase they had the emotional high of seeing their compatriot win. It added something special to the race that wouldn't have been there had it been Webber or Rosberg who'd snatched victory on the last lap.

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Originally Posted by Retro Formula 1

Lets just hope that it never happens though as it would be a sad day if we lost you weird and wonderful, myopic, single-minded Tifosi ;) :D

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You'd all be bored if you didn't have us around to argue with! :D

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Originally Posted by henners88

I've always been the opposite and supported drivers over teams. First and foremost I have always supported British drivers regardless of who they drove for, although I have followed people like Senna and Hakkinen in the past. At the moment I support Lewis and Jenson and they happen to race for McLaren so that is my team at the moment. If Lewis were to go to Ferrari I would support him there but would be offended if someone referred to me as a tifosi because I hate being put into a catagory where say a team is not my priority. I suppose a huge chuck of Alonso's fans followed him and will follow him if he moves in the future, so I think alot of F1's fanbase is driver orientated. Red Bull are amassing a large number of fans because they are successful at present. Where there is glory you'll find fans, but thats the same in any sport.

Would I be sad if Ferrari, McLaren or Williams left the sport? Yes, but life goes on and so does F1. :)

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I'm curious. Do you follow a football player when he goes from team to team or does your support stay with the team?

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

The problem with your example is that none of those teams had even a fraction of the fan base that Ferrari enjoy. I'd go so far as to say that all three combined didn't have the fan base that Ferrari did and do. Besides, things were a lot different in 1980, let alone the 1950's.

Yes F1 would survive as the sport is bigger than any one team. Perhaps the question is more a case of which team would F1 miss the most? I think the answer is Ferrari.

Personally, I doubt I would keep more than a passing interest in F1 if Ferrari were to leave. I've been supporting them for over 20 years. I simply couldn't switch my allegiance to another team and I've never supported drivers. The Ferrari drivers only ever had my support while they drove for Maranello.

Without a team to support, and therefore something to keep me emotionally invested, my interest would wane. I have no real interest in the WRC now that Subaru are gone for example. Take away a persons emotional investment in a sport and what's to keep them coming back?

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What would happen if we could run the same experiment on a smaller scale? Would that prove that the sport was bigger than one team?
Suppose for instance that VXRacing left the BTCC. Would the BTCC continue to field about 25 cars in a race? Would the BTCC survive? ;)

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

Personally, I doubt I would keep more than a passing interest in F1 if Ferrari were to leave. I've been supporting them for over 20 years. I simply couldn't switch my allegiance to another team and I've never supported drivers. The Ferrari drivers only ever had my support while they drove for Maranello.

Without a team to support, and therefore something to keep me emotionally invested, my interest would wane. I have no real interest in the WRC now that Subaru are gone for example. Take away a persons emotional investment in a sport and what's to keep them coming back?

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Are you typical though?

I ask the question if most people follow teams or drivers and I tend to think the latter; I will follow any British driver for instance. I remember Mansell at Lotus, Williams, Ferrari back at Williams and later at McLaren. To be totally honest it bothered not a gnat's nadger which team he drove for. Likewise the Australian media tends to follow Mark Webber and they're not bothered if he drove for Minardi, Jaguar, Williams or Red Bull.

Does F1 need Ferrari? No, of course it doesn't. Would the sport be worse off without Ferrari? Yes, very much so. As has already been said, the sport is bigger than any team, however without a shadow of a doubt, if any team left, Ferrari would be the one that would have the greatest impact (and in a negative way).

It would be like Man Utd leaving the Premier League to play in the top Spanish flight. The Premier League would still survive, however should Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd all leave, then that would be a major blow, and not one I think it would survive. This principle applies to Formula 1, if Ferrari left, it would survive, however I don't think F1 would survive if all the top teams and drivers left to race in another series.

Bernie and co need to be careful of the threat of FOTA to set up a rival series, because Formula 1 DOES need the current teams and drivers - Formula 1 as a business would be worthless if everyone left to set up a new racing series.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

At the risk of speaking for others, I think most people need more than just the sport itself. It's why the home town football team has the support of the locals. It's why people support drivers from their own countries. People need to feel some kind of connection to those they support.
What your're talking about, watching F1 simply for the racing, sounds completely souless to me (no offense intended). I bet F1 fans in Britain were much happier than their counterparts in Germany after Canada, despite the fact that both had witnessed a great race. Why? Becuase they had the emotional high of seeing their compatriot win. It added something special to the race that wouldn't have been there had it been Webber or Rosberg who'd snatched victory on the last lap.

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No offense taken. I agree it would take a certain aspect from the supporter’s perspective but should McLaren leave I’d keep watching F1. I support driver foremost than a team but the reason I would like to see McLaren do well is because of the way they run their team. They give both drivers equal opportunity and don’t censor them to the press. First of all I’m a driver supporter though. I don’t get the awe with Ferrari myself.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

I'm curious. Do you follow a football player when he goes from team to team or does your support stay with the team?

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Different scenario though isn’t it? I know many Man Utd supporters that still love Ronaldo despite his switch to Real Madrid. In football you never switch your team, stick with your club through thick and thin because players come and go so frequently and there are so many of them. It’s kind of hard to support a single one. I love Lionel Messi and the way Barcelona play but if he left I’d still love Messi and Barcelona. In F1 the fans tend to be more supportive of drivers because of what an individual can do with it opposed to football where the game itself is about the entire team and results are not as much about on individual.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Are you typical though?

I ask the question if most people follow teams or drivers and I tend to think the latter; I will follow any British driver for instance. I remember Mansell at Lotus, Williams, Ferrari back at Williams and later at McLaren. To be totally honest it bothered not a gnat's nadger which team he drove for. Likewise the Australian media tends to follow Mark Webber and they're not bothered if he drove for Minardi, Jaguar, Williams or Red Bull.

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Am I typical of an F1 fan? Probably not. Am I typical of a Ferrari F1 fan? I think so. I'm talking about real Ferrari fans, not the type like a certain member of this board who's allegiance flip-flops all over the place. And perhaps that's another point of differentiation between Ferrari's fans and the other types of F1 fans. Ferrari's fans are international and stick with the team, regardless of who's driving, in greater numbers than any other single team. Personally I have no desire to see Mark Webber win. Is that strange?

I do agree that much of F1's fan base seems to fall along national lines, I just think that Ferrari are the only team that goes beyond those lines.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

No offense taken. I agree it would take a certain aspect from the supporter’s perspective but should McLaren leave I’d keep watching F1. I support driver foremost than a team but the reason I would like to see McLaren do well is because of the way they run their team. They give both drivers equal opportunity and don’t censor them to the press. First of all I’m a driver supporter though. I don’t get the awe with Ferrari myself.

Different scenario though isn’t it? I know many Man Utd supporters that still love Ronaldo despite his switch to Real Madrid. In football you never switch your team, stick with your club through thick and thin because players come and go so frequently and there are so many of them. It’s kind of hard to support a single one. I love Lionel Messi and the way Barcelona play but if he left I’d still love Messi and Barcelona. In F1 the fans tend to be more supportive of drivers because of what an individual can do with it opposed to football where the game itself is about the entire team and results are not as much about on individual.

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Why is it that football is different to F1, or motorsport in general? I suppose it's because, despite all evidence to the contrary, motorsport is seen as an individual sport where as football is clearly a team sport. That's something I don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

Am I typical of an F1 fan? Probably not. Am I typical of a Ferrari F1 fan? I think so. I'm talking about real Ferrari fans, not the type like a certain member of this board who's allegiance flip-flops all over the place. And perhaps that's another point of differentiation between Ferrari's fans and the other types of F1 fans. Ferrari's fans are international and stick with the team, regardless of who's driving, in greater numbers than any other single team. Personally I have no desire to see Mark Webber win. Is that strange?

I do agree that much of F1's fan base seems to fall along national lines, I just think that Ferrari are the only team that goes beyond those lines.



Why is it that football is different to F1, or motorsport in general? I suppose it's because, despite all evidence to the contrary, motorsport is seen as an individual sport where as football is clearly a team sport. That's something I don't understand.

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Well that's it exactly. F1 is a team sport but that's not obvious to someone during the race especially the average punter just switching on their TV. All they see is the drivers, it's all they are exposed to mainly. They don't see the huge effort behind the scene nor realise the a brilliant car can make an average driver look great. In soccer you see the manager at the sidelines always, the coaches, the subs. They are all far more exposed to the public eye. This is what causes the main difference I would believe.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

Why is it that football is different to F1, or motorsport in general? I suppose it's because, despite all evidence to the contrary, motorsport is seen as an individual sport where as football is clearly a team sport. That's something I don't understand.

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There is the little annoying problem that people do buy season tickets and memberships to the clubs (though with the latter, not so much in high-level football). A club membership is a case of actual ownership amongst the members of the club, whereas there's very little chance of the average punter owning part of the F1 they might follow.

Do ferrai need their fans (for now fred fans) or do they need a driver who deliver KIMI.'

They are lost, but Kimi will be back.

I think if the run away series would be created with Ferrari at the helm all F1 fans would definetly abandon the F1 to their destiny. Everyone is sick and tired of the lack of transparency and objective respect of the rules. The only sport I know of where you never know how a piot would be punished for breaking a rule. Especially this year where RB is facing a ban in the middle of the championship.
Totally unfair and a turn off. Fans are fed up with the FIA. Given the opportunity everybody would follow Ferrari &. Co.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I saw an interview on telly about 2 years back and Monty confirmed that they still sell road cars to fund their racing programs. I think it is slowly shifting though.

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Ol' LdM will never change. Did he mention how much money Ferrari pour into their F1 operations, if any?

What about looking at the question in a different way. Let's say Ferrari left F1 and joined a breakaway championship, would F1 survive then?

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Originally Posted by Mark

What about looking at the question in a different way. Let's say Ferrari left F1 and joined a breakaway championship, would F1 survive then?

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Don't just critise this as it is only an idea of what could potentially happen.

It would be dictated by whether other teams felt the move of Ferrari to join another series mean't they would move to the breakaway championship.

If the movement of Ferrari led to Mclaren, Renault and others to breakaway also F1 may not survive the longer term.

Imagine Ferrari, Mclaren, Mercedes and Renault all jumping away.

This could lead to the best drivers moving with the teams to the new series leaving only 6 or 7 teams in F1.
With the best teams, best drivers and most money in the new series, many fans may leave a watch the breakaway leading F1 into a dark hole from which it couldn't escape.

This is not what I think would happen, but its just a example of the worst case senerio of how F1's most prestigious teams departure could lead to a snow ball effect.

Just a fun idea, what do you think?

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Originally Posted by aki13

Don't just critise this as it is only an idea of what could potentially happen.

It would be dictated by whether other teams felt the move of Ferrari to join another series mean't they would move to the breakaway championship.

If the movement of Ferrari led to Mclaren, Renault and others to breakaway also F1 may not survive the longer term.

Imagine Ferrari, Mclaren, Mercedes and Renault all jumping away.

This could lead to the best drivers moving with the teams to the new series leaving only 6 or 7 teams in F1.
With the best teams, best drivers and most money in the new series, many fans may leave a watch the breakaway leading F1 into a dark hole from which it couldn't escape.

This is not what I think would happen, but its just a example of the worst case senerio of how F1's most prestigious teams departure could lead to a snow ball effect.

Just a fun idea, what do you think?

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I think this could happen, if the top drivers left with the top teams, we are essentially left with a Gp2 like series.

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Originally Posted by Mark

What about looking at the question in a different way. Let's say Ferrari left F1 and joined a breakaway championship, would F1 survive then?

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It would depend on the breakaway series. Really in the past most of the grumble about the breakaways is nothing but a grab for money. Bernie wants more, the teams and drivers want more. The majority of them already have a lot of money and are but a small gear in the machine. Maybe the mechanics, designers, and other engineers should make a money grab and create their own series? :)

just think about f1 without ferrari.
f1 's commercial character will ruin
an enormous amount of fans of f1 will de hugely disappointed.
a department of ferrari will be something devastating for the sport.

A few years ago I'd have said yes, now I'd say no.

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Originally Posted by Mark

What about looking at the question in a different way. Let's say Ferrari left F1 and joined a breakaway championship, would F1 survive then?

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It would depend on the regs. You just have to look at the response to the new engine regs.

Regardless of what LDM came out with Ferrari exist to go racing which you can't say for most other constructors/manufacturers in F1. The majority within FOTA are having to justify shareholders of spending in F1 with 'car relevant' regs.

Today's F1 is great, but my memory is more associated to a moment when tobaccos were allowed, teams like Ferrari, McLaren, BMW Williams, Jaguar, BAR Honda, and mid players like Honda Jordan, Minardi, were competing in the championship. Perhaps it was 2000's. Just like when BMW, Jaguar and BAR decided to leave the sport, letting Ferrari go would be a great loss.