Karma and the UK's National Health Service

If it was so tragic i would be laughing.

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Instant karma’s gonna get you: Former British health director dies after operation canceled four times

April 3, 2011 · 5 comments

Remember when the Democrats said ObamaCare would give all Americans the kind of government-operated healthcare that’s available to the British? That’s exactly what we’re afraid of.

The Daily Mail UK explains what critics of ObamaCare were talking about:
margaret-hutchon

Poor Margaret Hutchon died of a severe case of government healthcare

A former NHS director died after waiting for nine months for an operation – at her own hospital.

Margaret Hutchon, a former mayor, had been waiting since last June for a follow-up stomach operation at Broomfield Hospital in Chelmsford, Essex.

But her appointments to go under the knife were cancelled four times and she barely regained consciousness after finally having surgery.

Her devastated husband, Jim, is now demanding answers from Mid Essex Hospital Services NHS Trust – the organisation where his wife had served as a non-executive member of the board of directors.

He said: ‘I don’t really know why she died. I did not get a reason from the hospital. We all want to know for closure. She got weaker and weaker as she waited and operations were put off.’

To repeat: A former Director of the Great Britain’s National Health Service died when her operation was canceled four times at her own hospital. John Lennon summed up this situation perfectly:

Instant Karma’s gonna get you,
Gonna knock you right on the head,
You better get yourself together,
Pretty soon you’re gonna be dead

Source: DailyMail UK

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http://www.ihatethemedia.com/former-...led-four-times

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

If it was so tragic i would be laughing.

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I was going to say that I think you mean 'If it wasn't so tragic'. But on reflection I'm not so sure.

Typical Daily Mail article.

Why were the procedures cancelled? If it was due to logistical reasons she'd have skipped to the head of the queue and her procedure would have been performed within a week of her cancellation. Given that the article mentions her weakened state her op was most likely cancelled repeatedly as she represented a high anaesthetic risk.

Again, selective reporting by the Daily Mail with a refusal to clarify exactly why the procedures were delayed, most likely because it didn't fit their agenda.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Typical Daily Mail article.

Why were the procedures cancelled? If it was due to logistical reasons she'd have skipped to the head of the queue and her procedure would have been performed within a week of her cancellation. Given that the article mentions her weakened state her op was most likely cancelled repeatedly as she represented a high anaesthetic risk.

Again, selective reporting by the Daily Mail with a refusal to clarify exactly why the procedures were delayed, most likely because it didn't fit their agenda.

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How dare you come on here and offer a reasoned opinion based on experience of the subject.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

If it was so tragic i would be laughing.

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To clarify: By his own admission, Mr Vop "would" think that it's funny to be laughing over the deaths of people.

Maybe this is apt:
“People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character.”
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

I think that's it's safe to let people draw their own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Quite. I got as far as the words Daily Mail and decided to put my laptop down and read my wifes Heat magazine instead. :dozey:

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Herer is another link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html?ITO=1490

It is rather pathetic when peoples only response to a new article is to attack the source regardless of reality. Bigots do that alot.

Why have no other news sources even reported her death?

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Why have no other news sources even reported her death?

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Factually untrue. It was reported in the local press in Essex.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Typical Daily Mail article.

Why were the procedures cancelled? If it was due to logistical reasons she'd have skipped to the head of the queue and her procedure would have been performed within a week of her cancellation. Given that the article mentions her weakened state her op was most likely cancelled repeatedly as she represented a high anaesthetic risk.

Again, selective reporting by the Daily Mail with a refusal to clarify exactly why the procedures were delayed, most likely because it didn't fit their agenda.

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Good guessing, wow, for someone who never met or treated her.
Or were you her doctor or some other member of the medical community who killed her?

Silly woman! She should have come to the U.S. so she could have been denied treatment (unless she had good private insurance or lots of cash) right from the start. See, that way, she and her family wouldn't have needlessly gotten their hopes up.

That's what makes this the greatest dang country on earth! Unless you're dirt poor and can get on Medicaid, are old and can get on Medicare, are rich and can foot the bill yourself or have a private insurance plan and you won't exceed your annual or lifetime limits... you can spend your remaining days with your family. Why waste time begging doctors and hospitals to treat you, when all they see when they look at you is a lease payment on their BMW 750/Mercedes S Class?

There, that's my happy thought to start the month of April. :)

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Good guessing, wow, for someone who never met or treated her.
Or were you her doctor or some other member of the medical community who killed her?

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You have no evidence to suggest things were one way or the other!

The NHS has many, many failings, however it's a cherished part of Britain, so do not use it as a pawn in yet another American polictical debate!

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Typical Daily Mail article.

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Exactly. Their agenda will be to highlight cases which, on the surface, justify the current government's top down reorganisation (some would say privatisation) of the NHS. Of course under a private insurance based heathcare system cases such as this would never happen.

Even if (and given that paper's track record it's a massive "if") the article is factually correct, it's hardly evidence that the NHS is failing. It treats literally millions of people every month, and as such it's almost certain that every once in a while something will go wrong. To the individual and their family that's devestating, and I'm not belittling their suffering, but statistically it's damn-near irrelevant.

I've found the link to the story as it appears on the Mail's website (which in turn appears to have been lifted word-for-word from a local newspaper):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-hospital.html

It's very sparse on facts, but one part which didn't get reproduced in the OP (and by the way, that website is laughable) was this:

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'From July to October there was talk of another operation and then between November and December there were three or four postponements and she was becoming so institutionalised we decided to get her home until an operation was certain.

'It was a blessing because although neither of is could have guessed it - it gave us a last month together.

'Nevertheless, she was unable to take proper nourishment and went into the operation on the better side of a low state - she was very weak.'

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Now it would be foolish to dabble in conjecture, but I wonder if the family's decision to look after the patient at home instead of letting the hospital do their job was a factor. There's clearly more to this story than the newspaper has reported. Tragic it may be, but it's hardly typical of the NHS.

Don't let facts get in the way of the bashing, Dave.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Why were the procedures cancelled? If it was due to logistical reasons she'd have skipped to the head of the queue and her procedure would have been performed within a week of her cancellation. Given that the article mentions her weakened state her op was most likely cancelled repeatedly as she represented a high anaesthetic risk.

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Several years ago I had an operation cancelled twice because my INR was extremely elevated. I had a genuine risk of bleeding to death on the table, which far outweighed the potential benefits of the surgery. No complaints from me.

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Again, selective reporting by the Daily Mail with a refusal to clarify exactly why the procedures were delayed, most likely because it didn't fit their agenda.

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In fairness, more likely they didn't know. The article is either ripped off from thisistotalessex (earlier time of publication), or it's agency copy. Either way, they didn't bother doing any actual journalism. :s

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Originally Posted by Mark

You have no evidence to suggest things were one way or the other!

The NHS has many, many failings, however it's a cherished part of Britain, so do not use it as a pawn in yet another American polictical debate!

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nor does he, but clearly the "cherished" failed

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

Silly woman! She should have come to the U.S. so she could have been denied treatment (unless she had good private insurance or lots of cash) right from the start. See, that way, she and her family wouldn't have needlessly gotten their hopes up.

That's what makes this the greatest dang country on earth! Unless you're dirt poor and can get on Medicaid, are old and can get on Medicare, are rich and can foot the bill yourself or have a private insurance plan and you won't exceed your annual or lifetime limits... you can spend your remaining days with your family. Why waste time begging doctors and hospitals to treat you, when all they see when they look at you is a lease payment on their BMW 750/Mercedes S Class?

There, that's my happy thought to start the month of April. :)

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working for a government agency always provides the best insurance and she would have been well taken care, unlike many working stiffs whose taxes pay for those nice health benefits

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Originally Posted by markabilly

nor does he, but clearly the "cherished" failed

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I don't think anybody has ever suggested that the NHS is perfect in every way, but it's equally moronic to use one isolated case (even ignoring the flaws in the reporting) to suggest that the whole system is failing.

As I said, while the case is clearly tragic for those concerned, it's statistically a non-event when you consider the millions who are successfully treated.

I'm not sure which is worse, http://www.ihatethemedia.com or the Daily Mail.

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A former Director of the Great Britain’s National Health Service...

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Margaret Hutchon, according to the original piece, was a non-executive member of the board of directors with Mid Essex Hospital Services NHS Trust.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I'm not sure which is worse, http://www.ihatethemedia.com or the Daily Mail.

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Well, both are clearly favoured sources of anthonyvop, so make of that what you will.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I think its worth noting to members not from the UK that we have an option to take out medical insurance and go private if we wish. The NHS is great and available to all, but if we wish to pay, we can.

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Honest question. If you choose to go with a private insurer, do you still have to pay taxes for the NHS? Are there direct taxes associated with the NHS, or is it payed for through things like VAT and the like? And can you choose, none of the above?

If you're working and living in the UK, the answer is, yes, you have to pay and, no, it's not optional. NHS is funded through income tax (tax paid on earnings) not Value Added Tax (VAT) which is basically sales tax.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Honest question. If you choose to go with a private insurer, do you still have to pay taxes for the NHS? Are there direct taxes associated with the NHS, or is it payed for through things like VAT and the like? And can you choose, none of the above?

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All British taxes are pooled regardless of the label on the tax with the exception of the TV licence. It is not possible to opt out of NHS cover which is just as well because there is little to no private coverage for entire healthcare sectors such as emergency care.

The private sector is heavily indirectly subsidised by the presence of the NHS so I would expect British premiums to be substantially lower than US premiums, but then we are not comparing like for like.

Thanks for the quick replies mandsfoley and Dylan.

I think the Euro model of choice is where North America will end up. America, which has a hodge podge of private plans, clearly is not going to be happy with "Obamacare" but I think many want better than the weak Medicare and Medicaid systems. Then in Canada, we have NO private option, which is equally as stupid, since the costs of it are a ticking time bomb that eventually will blow up in the budgets of all governments in charge of it. Will they ration, or admit we need a private option, much like in Britain and other nations?

In this one case, it is ironic, and sad, but you have to question why someone who seems to be from a well off family not have taken the private option? Believe me, I know if I I had a choice, I would want to exercise it......

AS for commenting on why she had 4 procedures post poned, we don't know and god knows the Daily Mail wouldn't figure it out. As much as people want to think of me as a knuckledragger right winger on this forum, even I know that paper is bird cage liner...

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

In this one case, it is ironic, and sad, but you have to question why someone who seems to be from a well off family not have taken the private option? Believe me, I know if I I had a choice, I would want to exercise it......

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This attitude troubles me. I know people who could afford private healthcare treatment, yet choose not to take the option — just as , if I had children and had the money, I would never send them to other than a regular state school.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

In this one case, it is ironic, and sad, but you have to question why someone who seems to be from a well off family not have taken the private option? Believe me, I know if I I had a choice, I would want to exercise it......

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Probably because with more knowledge than most of what private and national healthcare in the UK really offer she couldn't see the point in paying extra.

If you really must have your own satellite TV and the latest wallpaper in your room when you're admitted for surgery private healthcare is a must. Private healthcare is also great for convenience if you have some minor niggle or a small non-urgent op that needs to be arranged.

If you're going to have anything that may escalate to become life threatening then you really want to be in an NHS hospital or at one of a few central London private hospitals. For many serious issues private insurance will merely bump you up the waiting list at the local NHS hospital as the private care providers won't have the facilities to treat you safely themselves. There is less staff cover at private hospitals and the quality of the junior staff is highly variable, not something you want if you 'go off' overnight at one.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

This attitude troubles me. I know people who could afford private healthcare treatment, yet choose not to take the option — just as , if I had children and had the money, I would never send them to other than a regular state school.

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Well it shouldn't trouble you. My point is that it is a choice. If you have the money, you can get the best you want in a field. Now in Britain, Dylan and others such as yourself contend it is the NHS, and maybe it is. Still, someone with the income would at least explore the option right?

Indeed. Private care is good for non urgent non critical stuff. If you're talking life or death then the expertise is within the NHS.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Still, someone with the income would at least explore the option right?

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You're assuming that a private policy would be affordable or even cover someone who sounds as ill as this person was.