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http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-team-20110327
American Army soldiers are being tried for murder due to the fact that they indiscriminately killed Afghan civilians. The photos are quite disturbing. As a member of the United States Army, I take deep pride in my work, and as a future officer I find this behavior reprehensible.
War is savage, but there is no place in the Army for this conduct.
If guilty they should be executed by firing squad but then that might send a message to any others who would consider doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
There is a place in all armies for this. Civilians are killed indiscriminately, but mostly by accident all the time. Fighting an enemy that wears no distinctive uniform for the sole purpose of blending into civilian crowds hopes this happens and happens often. Sometimes, if need be, they will make it happen. All these little incidents help build into a change of opinion towards the central government by the population and the world. Physical trophies have always been taken in war and always will be. Nothing new there either. If civilians choose to hang out with their feedom fighters on their own, well, you never know when a missle guided by a drone is going to zip in and break up that birthday bar-b-que. That's their choice and part of being in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
While I applaud your decision to be a member of the armed forces with a future of possibly leading young men into battle, once you are actually a warrior in command of an understrength platoon that was two companies the night before, you might find your viewpoint on whats "reprehensible" changing.
Hondo, this wasn't friendly fire or mistaken identity, it was muder!
Even if it wasn't then it's pretty f***ing low to pose for photos with the deceased. I actually took some time to have a look at the pictures and I wish that I hadn't, in particular the ones of the first guy that they talk about where he's been stripped naked and they're grabbing his hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Evidentally Hondo didn't actually read the link though, where they describe the US force wandering up to a 15 year old farmer in the middle of a field, throwing a grenade (to make it seem like the lad had attacked them) and then shooting him. Obviously Hondo also missed where one of the guys who shot the kid said:
This is also a wonderful little passage:Quote:
Originally Posted by Morlock
...Quote:
The soldiers knelt down behind a mud-brick wall. Then Morlock tossed a grenade toward Mudin, using the wall as cover. As the grenade exploded, he and Holmes opened fire, shooting the boy repeatedly at close range with an M4 carbine and a machine gun.
Mudin buckled, went down face first onto the ground. His cap toppled off. A pool of blood congealed by his head.
Quote:
When a staff sergeant asked them what had happened, Morlock said the boy had been about to attack them with a grenade. "We had to shoot the guy," he said.
I think you're absolutely wrong. I've never been taught that it is acceptable to kill unarmed civilians by luring them out into the open, and planting a weapon on them once they've been killed. Killing unarmed civilians is juxtaposed to what the U.S. Army is trying to achieve in Afghanistan. My Master Sergeant was stating that the reason the Iraq War to so long to quell was because of the indiscriminate killing. You don't want to upset the local populace, especially if they are the focal point of your military policy. This is just an incident that was caused by a lack of good leadership, so quite similar to the incident at Abu Ghraib.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Just curious...did you even read the article? You're a little off the mark.
I think there are some people that think the way Hondo does. This appalling apathy for human life is sickening and hateful.
I'm just glad that people like Gloomy are the norm for Soldiers and not people like Hondo. :(
Bearing in mind that these are not mistaken killings but what appears to be quite widespread war crimes, and taking into account that this information has been supressed at the highest levels within the Pentagon (and possibly beyond), is it now time for a full War Crimes investigation within the US Army by the War Crimes commission?
Before I criticise (to put it mildly!) Hondo, I'd like clarification that he has read and understood the link, rather than assuming it was a case of friendly fire. :\
I did not read the entire article and haven't yet. But I will. I'm not saying killing unarmed civilians is acceptable, I'm saying it happens. Always has and always will. I do say it's more likely to occur when an army is up against an enemy that uses hit and run tactics or remotely fired munitions. In small units, after repeated causualties with nothing to show in return, everybody becomes the enemy. That was a major problem in Vietnam. The 11B (infantry) classification in the US Army is one of the easiest classifications they have to meet. The Army, just like the civilian population, doesn't always have people that are playing the game with a full deck of cards. Sometimes they don't have the maturity to handle it. Holmes at age 19, cannot legally buy a pistol or booze in most if not all of the United States. But over there, he is in a position to potentially call in air strikes and burn hundreds of people, unquestioned. So you've got a 21 year old and a 19 year old, probably raised thinking playing first person shooters on an xbox 360 is a reflection of some form of reality, free to operate where they are the law. What do you expect? As far as upsetting the local populations goes, you are doing that just by being there. You came in and took their personal arms, you question them at will, make them provide ID, search their houses at will, and ask them questions about the insurgents. After you leave, the insurgents come down and slap them around until they know everything about the gringos that visited today. It's not our culture, they don't want our culture, say excuse me, get out, come home.
As an aside, it seems I remember the 15 year old was poppie farming. Some culture may consider what the soldiers did as executing a narcotics supplier. Who knows.
Hondo, please read the article. I'm certainly resigned to the fact that civillians can and will die by accident in war zones, it's just the nature of the beast, especially when you're talking about a conflict like Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan where the enemy doesn't necessarily label himself helpfully with a uniform, but this was nothing other than murder. Watch some of the videos on there as well..... it's just wrong....
For once, I agree with you BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
I understand where you are coming from. Real close and personal. Everyone has a dark side and when put under enough stress, it will come forth and do some horrible things. The difference in people is just how much does it take to make someone flip. For some, it is only a litle bit and for others, it is massive. All it takes is enough stress for a long enough time, and anyone will lose control. Until you have been shot at and shot back, it is hard to say how you would react.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Many folks think they never would, not ever, go nuts and do unspeakable things, but I say BS on that. Just put enough and long enough stress and sooner or later: POP!
Add in that this is an enemy who is notorius for doing the very same thing that these soldiers are alleged, which is premeditated murder, with the blessing of some of thier religous leaders, against red cross workers and humantarians, as well as their very own women, children and men of their own society because they said something that the leaders did not like or because they wanted to read and write.......
However, assuming the article is accurate, and that is a very BIG ASSUMPTION, what is described is simple premeditated murder. These guys did not react to that type of stress, but appear in the article as not getting enough thrills, and so decided to create their own excitement.
Not only have they committed murder, but they have in effect disobeyed te standards and orders of the miltary as well as essentially commited treason by providing an example of the type of behavior that gives aid and comfort to our enemies that they can use as an example to encourage more insurrection and problems.
Which is why I feel as I do about Libya. As the old saying goes, you can ride the tiger all you want, but once on, you just can not get off....
That's why I've always maintained that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have to be as squeaky clean as possible. A wedding party in a building getting killed by a bomb is bad enough, but some hicks killing civillians who are innocent (not having been proven to be guilty of anything) just makes it easy for the Taliban to recruit people to fight for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
Tbh these guys should go on trial and if they are found guilty they should be executed in Afghanistan and if possible it should be done in public to show that the US doesn't consider Afghan civillians lives worthless.
if found guilty of the behavior described, yep; however, it will take far more than the story of some reporter published in the Rolling Stone Rock Star magazine before I even think about triggers being pulled.
I'm against death penalty, but I think they should be judged in an Afghan court. If that means death penalty, so be it, but I'd say life in some Afghan prison would be a suitable punishment, even if "life" meant something like 12 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Yes, the Germans sometimes killed local residents in occupied territories for revenge after resistance had used hit and run tactics or remotely fired munitions against them in WW2. Some of them have been prosecuted and convicted as war criminals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Big Warning... Didn't expect to see what was in those photos... especially some later in the album are hugely disturbing and i wish i'd never seen anything like that. Unless you are incredibly numb to human suffering do not look.
I thought you were against death penalty? Now you are about as blood hungry as possible, why is that so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Sometimes? The Germans and Russians hacked away at each other without mercy for the entire war. If the Germans had won, the Soviets would have been the war criminals, if Germany had even bothered with something like that.
Dead is dead, how really matters little unless one is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwegian Blue
There are photographs like that, long stored away in shoeboxes and the like, in closets of former combat participants all over the world. I've seen them from WW II, Biafra, Rhodesia, South Africa, Vietnam, Mexico and Kuwait. They are typical war photos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norwegian Blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
An Afghan court would mean an Islamic Court which would mean any death penalty given could be overturned at the request of the family who might do just that if paid enough.
Doesn't make it acceptable. There seems to be an attitude here that shows a little too much respect for those engaged in war — respect unquestionably deserved if earned, but never deserved unquestioningly — and too little respect for human life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
And this is what we've been fighting for all these years there, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Why no, not at all. We've been fighting there all these years against the Taliban so the Afghans can have democracy and vote in whomever they please like they did when they voted in the Taliban to start with, and will do so again. Then all the various tribes and sects will rearm and happily go back to killing each other just like the old days.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Did you support the conflict there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
And I believe the judgements made of those who have never been in combat upon those who have, should be very much held in reserve. Quite frankly, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You just don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I supported swooping in and tearing up all the training camps we could find. Once that was done, we should have left and should not be there now.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
What I do know is that nobody, no matter what their job, deserves unthinking, unquestioning respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
We can agree on that. I have seen the rotten underside of many a profession I once respected. Law, medicine and even the "noble causes" that lead us off to war.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Good. In that case, I hope you would also agree that it is unacceptable to allow those engaged in fighting wars complete carte blanche when it comes to their behaviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
For the most part I agree although I believe that using some of the same tactics of the enemy, back on the enemy is both justified and useful. I'm aware that people are under the impression that I condone with what those soldiers were doing and that's not true. I'm not shocked by it but I am amazed by the number of people who seem to believe things like that don't happen in wars. Well wake up people. Things like that happen in wars, they happen in police departments, they happen in domestic crimes, and, killings aside, they happen in MP expense scandals. Police have, probably since day 1, routinely kept weapons such as a knife or a pistol that they've taken from a criminal in their brief cases in case they killed a suspect they thought was armed that turned out not to be. By the time the coroner gets there, that dead suspect has a gun of knife in his hand or under his body with his prints on it. They are called "throw downs". After that, the old code of silence kicks in as few are willing to rat out their buddies and the ones that might don't have enough faith in the system to ensure their protection. In the case of the military, a scandal such as this could hurt a young officer's career, so he too is willing to try to hush it up. The expense scandal, you didn't have MPs running around ratting out other MPs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
The troopers in Afghanistan don't have a mission, they don't know why they are there, they know the people want them to go, they know their president and commander in chief is an idiot, they know they patrol every day in god awful heat looking for the enemy while knowing the enemy could be that person standing 2 feet away from them and they still wouldn't know. They collect their dead and wounded, never having seen the people that caused it. Some are immature, most are young, all are frustrated and heavily armed. Common sense alone tells you some are going to snap. It just happens. Sometimes they don't kill a civilian, sometimes they just kill themselves.
Like an old Finnish saying goes "water you carry and pour to a well won't stay there".Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo