Pirelli

I thought we should have a place to discuss those black round things that go under the car as 2011's victors may owe their success to their ability to adapt to the new rubber.

So far the news seems to be as expected; the Pirelli's degrade quickly and then plateaux. IMHO this is GREAT! Alonso was talking a one lap banzi window and then a 2 second drop off, whilst Lewis has indicated with the tyres as they stand a one stop race is out of the question. Bring it on baby.

Do they have every compound that P's is going to bring into all races?
I respect the Boss's opinion but until he uses them in the 2011 challenger he really can't speak from a position of authority. Other than Fred have there been other comments about the degradation characteristics of the P's?
Plus we all know what a liar Fred and Ferrari are. Damn cheats they are.
For all we know Fred could pit on lap one ,and go the entire race distance while performing card tricks and other displays of his expertise in magic tricks.
The freakin’ guy can probably engage every button on the steering wheel with telepathy :vader:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...TJYClOzUgQfCqg

The trick with the new tyres is going to be optimising contact patch, on order to ensure that wear is even across the whole tyre, minimise graining and even out the heat build-up in order not to blister the tyre.

If the trend appears to be 1 lap of good performance followed by a significant drop off, then you need a car that can swiftly get the tyre to temp, but that does not then work it too hard - and thus nurture the performance over the life of the tyre. This will be key in qualifying.

Then you will have a process of managing the degradation. The one good aspect of the Pirelli trait, is that a guy that pits for new tyres potentially only has one lap of benefit from better performance before the anticipated drop off.

Now, if you can design your car to minimise degradation of the tyre, and thus optimise its performance in the 'drop off' period, you can potentially pit later, having relied on your ability to maximise the one lap qualifying performance (assuming you start on the front row that is).

Here is where I see McLaren as the wise team, learning about the tyres on a proven platform, with data that can then be fed to the suspension dept for any adjustments that might be deemed necessary for the 2011 car. These adjustments wont transfer overnight, but they will be able to compare the performance as testing progresses.

I could just be talking b0ll0cks mind.... :p

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I could just be talking b0ll0cks mind.... :p

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ROFL! :D

Personally I think it's witchcraft.

The only thing I know about these new tyres is that I don't like how the Pirelli logo is printed on them square, rather than curved with the shape of the wheel!

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Originally Posted by AndyL

The only thing I know about these new tyres is that I don't like how the Pirelli logo is printed on them square, rather than curved with the shape of the wheel!

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You mean you want this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266990

not this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266986

Now, why would you have differently badged tyres on either side of the car....??????

I think this was one of the reasons, why Red Bull had such a massive advantage in several qualifying sessions in 2010 - they were the only ones, who managed to figure out, how to warm those massively hard Bridgestone tyres quickly up. Those 1-second dominations seemed rather unusual in modern high competitive F1, but for 2011 they may be gone.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind more 2010 Montreal type of races with lots of fun with tyres. :) Also 2009 Australian GP as we may see a repeat of something similar again this year. I remember also in 1997 teams had lot of trouble with tyres on several circuits.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You mean you want this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266990

not this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266986

Now, why would you have differently badged tyres on either side of the car....??????

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Looks like the first one's a CG rendering - Renault's artists did it how it ought to look!

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Originally Posted by jens

I think this was one of the reasons, why Red Bull had such a massive advantage in several qualifying sessions in 2010 - they were the only ones, who managed to figure out, how to warm those massively hard Bridgestone tyres quickly up. Those 1-second dominations seemed rather unusual in modern high competitive F1, but for 2011 they may be gone.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind more 2010 Montreal type of races with lots of fun with tyres. :) Also 2009 Australian GP as we may see a repeat of something similar again this year. I remember also in 1997 teams had lot of trouble with tyres on several circuits.

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RBR6 was just simply supremely quick. Most likely due to aero than tyres eg. EBD. Also there were the odd races in the first of the year where tyre degradation was abnormally high eg. Montreal and China.

McLaren's were tricky to to set up from rake (higher rear ride height than front) and finding the sweet spot. The stiff front end didn't particularly help with Button's ignoramus driving style in quali conditions .

In 1997 Goodyear were shown up by bringing soft tyres that blistered easily in a tyre war with Bridgestone.

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Originally Posted by wedge

RBR6 was just simply supremely quick. Most likely due to aero than tyres eg. EBD.

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Indeed. RBR had the three tests (they missed the first) to sort out their exhaust configuration relative to the diffuser, whilst hiding what they were doing with painted on exhausts....

Of course, McLaren's F duct took away a lot of attention.......

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Originally Posted by wedge

... tyre war ...

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Sigh... I miss those days... :mark:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89704

Tyres are going to decide this championship. Not the car, or the engine but how it manages the tyres.

Should be an interesting year.

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

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Originally Posted by ioan

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

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I don't think they've learned anything from their previous humiliation in F1.........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I don't think they've learned anything from their previous humiliation in F1.........

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That's obvious, as they are proving that they know little about how to make a real competition tire.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's obvious, as they are proving that they know little about how to make a real competition tire.

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Errrrr...we haven't seen them race yet. Let's wait and see :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

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Why is it funny ?

They have been asked to produce tires that are difficult to deal with .
They did .

We are looking at a season that will start to favour those who treat the tires with care .
There will be strategies that go from two stops to four .

There will be rabbits who pit early , and often , and tortoises that go long , and seek to remain in touch with fewer stops .

You see , my friend , they are not competing . They are making a tire for competition .
It needs to be difficult .
I don't want to see a tire that can last a whole race .

It's not a tire race .
It's a car race .

Tire competition gave us nothing but a hobble for those with the slower tire .
Now , it becomes a car race again , with everyone in the same boat(car) .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Why is it funny ?

They have been asked to produce tires that are difficult to deal with .
They did .

We are looking at a season that will start to favour those who treat the tires with care .
There will be strategies that go from two stops to four .

There will be rabbits who pit early , and often , and tortoises that go long , and seek to remain in touch with fewer stops .

You see , my friend , they are not competing . They are making a tire for competition .
It needs to be difficult .
I don't want to see a tire that can last a whole race .

It's not a tire race .
It's a car race .

Tire competition gave us nothing but a hobble for those with the slower tire .
Now , it becomes a car race again , with everyone in the same boat(car) .

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+1

You cannot slag off the manufacturer for developing a tyre they were asked to.

This tyre is not a reflection on how competitive Pirelli can make a tyre but on how they can produce a tyre to set specifics. This they seem to have accomplished.

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Originally Posted by skc

developing a tyre they were asked to.

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That, in my book, is the perfect smokescreen from which Pirelli will conveniently hide behind. As their previous attempt to conquer F1 showed, their tyres are too soft and too fragile.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

It's not a tire race .

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If fear it will be; who's tyre goes bang first.

What Pirelli ought to have done is thus;

Construct a tyre that can last the entire race, but the performance of which tails off with every lap - but not a tyre that throws up marbles, or degrades and blisters because it is too soft.

Then, you get the tyre sympathisers who can make a longer stint work, and the racers who can live with the extra stop.

Not this lame excuse of "well, the tyres may be falling apart round our ears, but that's what we were told to do' nonsense.

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Originally Posted by ioan

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

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You're completely missing the point.

Consistent don't necessarily make good races. The whole palaver is band aid. The blame shouldn't be pointed at Pirelli but rather the FIA for the tyre regs and insisting using both compounds in the race.

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Originally Posted by wedge

You're completely missing the point.

Consistent don't necessarily make good races. The whole palaver is band aid. The blame shouldn't be pointed at Pirelli but rather the FIA for the tyre regs and insisting using both compounds in the race.

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Maglev - that's your answer. Dispence with tyres completely, then Pirelli can concentrate on building the conveyor belts for supermarket checkouts and baggage reclaim.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If fear it will be; who's tyre goes bang first.

What Pirelli ought to have done is thus;

Construct a tyre that can last the entire race, but the performance of which tails off with every lap - but not a tyre that throws up marbles, or degrades and blisters because it is too soft.

Then, you get the tyre sympathisers who can make a longer stint work, and the racers who can live with the extra stop.

Not this lame excuse of "well, the tyres may be falling apart round our ears, but that's what we were told to do' nonsense.

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Essentially , the difference is that you prefer a one or no stop race , and I would prefer a race that is a two or three stops .

The tires are the only real outside influence that the FIA can have on the cars , as it is the only real standard equipment .
The are the part that touches the asphalt , and one of the mandates , along with improving overtaking , is to slow them down .
A constantly improving tire , due to competition , actually hurts the competition , if one company gets a significant edge .
With a single make , in Pirelli , they have found a company that was willing to take some stick for making a tire that is , indeed , inferior to the predecessor , until the race fan realizes the action and strategy that will need to be employed to get to the top step .

I think everyone is going to quickly forget how "crappy" these tire are when the action starts , or , at least praise thier "crappyness" for the inspired strategies and heroic drives we may see as a result .



Of course , with these stupid moveable wings and the restrictive regs regarding them , we're more likely to be involved in talk about accidents and protests .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Essentially , the difference is that you prefer a one or no stop race , and I would prefer a race that is a two or three stops .

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Not really. I enjoy the strategy element more now that re-fuelling is dispensed with. Even the kindest driver on his tyres will need to make at least one stop just to stay in the game (and would anyway due to the compound use rule), whereas the racer can essentially chew up his tyres for performance but take the hit of the extra stop(s).

I think Pirelli were the wrong choice, and this is borne out by their degrading tyres. Michelin, who have a proven track record across the entire spectrum of motorsports, were to use this oppotunity to develop their economy range of tyres - with specific relevance to road car transference. This is something Michelin have pioneered, which I personally think is a great idea. Do you know anyone who wants to go to Kwik Fit and buy some tyres that'll shred half way up the Old Kent Road?????

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Not really. I enjoy the strategy element more now that re-fuelling is dispensed with. Even the kindest driver on his tyres will need to make at least one stop just to stay in the game (and would anyway due to the compound use rule), whereas the racer can essentially chew up his tyres for performance but take the hit of the extra stop(s).

I think Pirelli were the wrong choice, and this is borne out by their degrading tyres. Michelin, who have a proven track record across the entire spectrum of motorsports, were to use this oppotunity to develop their economy range of tyres - with specific relevance to road car transference. This is something Michelin have pioneered, which I personally think is a great idea. Do you know anyone who wants to go to Kwik Fit and buy some tyres that'll shred half way up the Old Kent Road?????

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You state that you like a range between one and three stops .
I like that , too , and believe , as you seem to , that it is what will happen .
So , why hate on Pirelli when it seems they may give you what you want ?

"Degrading tyres" are what they were asked for on the track .

It is not what they are asked for on the road , so your second paragraph seems completely irrelevent .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

You state that you like a range between one and three stops .
I like that , too , and believe , as you seem to , that it is what will happen .
So , why hate on Pirelli when it seems they may give you what you want ?

"Degrading tyres" are what they were asked for on the track .

It is not what they are asked for on the road , so your second paragraph seems completely irrelevent .

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I doubt we will see 1 stop races given the degradation rate of the Pirelli tires. More like 3 or more stops.

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Originally Posted by wedge

You're completely missing the point.

Consistent don't necessarily make good races. The whole palaver is band aid. The blame shouldn't be pointed at Pirelli but rather the FIA for the tyre regs and insisting using both compounds in the race.

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So now is the FIA's fault that Pirelli make chewing gum consistency tires?
The rules were the same last year and Bridgestone did great.

Most of us already knew what to expect from Pirelli, they never suprprize when it come to producing so so competition tires.

And BTW, the point that I am missing is about having the tires be the decisive factor in F1 racing?!
No thanks.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I doubt we will see 1 stop races given the degradation rate of the Pirelli tires. More like 3 or more stops.

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We saw Michael win a four stopper once , and it was exciting , as I recall .

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Originally Posted by ioan

So now is the FIA's fault that Pirelli make chewing gum consistency tires?
The rules were the same last year and Bridgestone did great.

Most of us already knew what to expect from Pirelli, they never suprprize when it come to producing so so competition tires.

And BTW, the point that I am missing is about having the tires be the decisive factor in F1 racing?!
No thanks.

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It's how you deal with the challenge of tire wear that will determine the championship , not the tires , themselves .
That's about car and driver . The challenge is the same for all .

They are aware that they are producing too many marbles right now , and they will adjust accordingly , before the season begins .

But , then teams will still complain , as they should , until they find how to take advantage , and then they will be silent .

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Originally Posted by ioan

So now is the FIA's fault that Pirelli make chewing gum consistency tires?
The rules were the same last year and Bridgestone did great.

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Didn't you know about the Tender process?

Oh well, lets just slag them off anyway :)

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Originally Posted by skc

+1

You cannot slag off the manufacturer for developing a tyre ...

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no, but you can slag them off for being italian, like ferrari and domenicalli and montemezolo eh ioan? :wave: :p

To me Pirelli are doing what Bernie & Co want: inconsistent tires which will make the races more exciting, articifial or not....

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

no, but you can slag them off for being italian, like ferrari and domenicalli and montemezolo eh ioan? :wave: :p

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I have to admit that I lost you there, unless you imply that Italians usually make crappy products.

Great place for Ioan to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions as absolute truth. Everyone was unsatisfied Bridgestone produced tyres that could last an entire race and now Pirelli does the opposite thing and some go nuts because they produce crappy tyres... and the first race is still weeks away. Why would anyone even care? All the teams use the same tyre.

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Originally Posted by eu

Great place for Ioan to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions as absolute truth. Everyone was unsatisfied Bridgestone produced tyres that could last an entire race and now Pirelli does the opposite thing and some go nuts because they produce crappy tyres... and the first race is still weeks away. Why would anyone even care? All the teams use the same tyre.

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Great place for eu to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions about fellow forum members!
Get yourself a mirror! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Great place for eu to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions about fellow forum members!
Get yourself a mirror! :rolleyes:

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Yeah, right! That's exactly how it is. It has nothing to do with the fact that you slam Pirelli for producing the tyre they were asked to.... because they are Italians. :rolleyes: indeed

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

To me Pirelli are doing what Bernie & Co want: inconsistent tires which will make the races more exciting, articifial or not....

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That is exactly how I see it. It's the one gimmick Bernie slid through under the radar. If Perelli wanted to produce the same compounds that the "stones" did last year it would be a hell of a lot easier than what Bernie has asked them to do this season. Plus I have not heard a single team complaining about blisters and graining
:s ailor: Then again they may wear out too fast for those problems.

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Originally Posted by Mr Alcatraz

That is exactly how I see it. It's the one gimmick Bernie slid through under the radar. If Perelli wanted to produce the same compounds that the "stones" did last year it would be a hell of a lot easier than what Bernie has asked them to do this season. Plus I have not heard a single team complaining about blisters and graining
:s ailor: Then again they may wear out too fast for those problems.

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I knew people would start complaining about the tire immediately. I don't get it, everybody knew that this was going to happen, it was planned, and now they're complaining about it. It's pretty difficult to please people, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I knew people would start complaining about the tire immediately. I don't get it, everybody knew that this was going to happen, it was planned, and now they're complaining about it. It's pretty difficult to please people, isn't it?

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Amen Brother!!! :up:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

We saw Michael win a four stopper once , and it was exciting , as I recall .

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re-fuelling was the artificial element here - and admittedly a sterling drive from Mike.