The Homestead race was embarrassing as far as attendance is concerned. I contacted promoters from Milwaukee, Iowa, and NHMS, to see how they will attack this issue.
http://www.fanviewpoint.com/2010/10/...homestead.html
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The Homestead race was embarrassing as far as attendance is concerned. I contacted promoters from Milwaukee, Iowa, and NHMS, to see how they will attack this issue.
http://www.fanviewpoint.com/2010/10/...homestead.html
I can tell you right now Steve, Homestead had lousy attendance because I think it was in the interest of ISC to tank the promotion of the race....
Then again, who really knows? Empty seats have been at NASCAR events all season....
That there is a great conspiracy of Nascar against the IRL is a great myth. If Nascar wanted to kill Indycar they'd simply stop the BY400. Then there is the fact that ISC is a publicy traded company. No way they deliberately take large losses just for the heck of it. The shareholders would never allow that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
You have to open your eyes and see that no amount of promotion is ever going to draw big crowds to Indycars Homestead. Even the Indy500 and Texas saw large drops in attendance this year.
Do you folks think there's a possiblity NASCAR is looking to take control of IndyCar?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lousada
to Lousada's point, this has been another huge conspiricay over the years. from a strickly business, real world POV the answer would have to be "yes" . IndyCar still has assests that would be positive $$$ to NASCAR. the few IC races that turned a profit and of course the Brickyard. if Nascar had total control they'd have a monopoly on all the major raceing series in the US (sans ALMS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o
now if thats practical for NASCAR is an entirerly different matter...
I would think you'd sell 12k tickets (if that) to a race like this by accident. Championship weekend? Hell, there's gotta be more than 12k Danica fans out there... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Regarding the empty seats at NASCAR, you can only hi-gross folks for so long. I know tracks are offering deals now, but the combination of high prices and NASCAR handcuffing drivers on the track and in interviews has hurt them. I think the 'have at it boys' policy is a step in the right direction with that series. The racing has never been paramount in NASCAR, the personalities have driven the sport. Now they have returned to that type of promotion, letting the boys be boys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
cause everyone went to Petit, they must have had around 70K in attendance on race day, and I dont blame them, it was a spectacular race and weekend. Spec racing is dying and innovation is becoming a new thing for fans
HMS promoted this years event more than they have the previous years. You couldn't tune in a radio station without hearing the ads. 500 spots on local TV. Drivers were everywhere doing promotions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The problem is the product. In an International City like Miami not many people care about an Spec Oval Racing Series.
I talk with a lot of people over the weekend including teams, PR people and media and most agreed with my theory. Run the race on the Road Course at Night and you will easily get 30K +
since when has that ever stopped the American Dream :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Whoops. There goes Standard Excuse for Failure #3.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
There is only one excuse now.....The Product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
Just so I understand your point, your theory is: Miami is more 'international', therefore they are not interested in "only left turn" racing? The problem is the oval track style of racing?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
One of the problems...A big one but just one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o
mind you, I'm the new guy around here, and not trying to create an argument... but how can NASCAR go in there in a month with the taxi cabs and come a helluva lot closer to filling the place? Driver recognition?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
I was told that a good 70% of tickets for the NASCAR race at HMS are purchased by fans outside of the Homestead/Miami area. Also remember that HMS is one of the smallest tracks on the NASCAR schedule with only 65K seats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o
Even with that all factored in there are still plenty of seats available and the NASCAR race has only been a sell-out before race weekend 3 times.
The geography would make sense. I'm sure many other tracks have similar numbers. Looking at the south, you have so many tracks looking to sell to essentially the same fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Anothony, couple of questions please?
I looked around (from afar) in the days leading up to the Homestead race, and found very little evidence of the local promotions you referred to. Dade County Mall, the discount gas station deal...that's about all I found.
In addition to both of those promotions last year, there was also a glitzy fashion show and hotel volleyball/beach party deal.
With the ISC ticket package split, the handwriting was already on the wall for this race. The appearance is that promotion was consistant at best, or perhaps decreased. If the last minute ticket price drop was not heavily advertised locally, it would have done no good either.
The other puzzle you outlined is the demographic of the ticket buyers: if 70% are not local, then the big jump in local promotion you speak of was money spent in the wrong place. Right?
I fully agree with you. Rather than blaming NASCAR/ISC for this incredibly low turnout, one would think that the IRL would be looking in the mirror and doing a deep-dive to figure out why so few people turned out for a championship weekend. Unless there were NASCAR thugs armed with AK-47's encircling the area, preventing fans from entering, the question remains: how did an IRL championship deciding race garner no more fans than a mid-season ALMS "roval" race in Charlotte, that received ZERO promotion, about 10 years ago???Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o
Again, I agree with you. And the same used to be true in American open wheel racing. While (IMO) the cars were way cooler back then than what we have now, we also used to have world class personalities (and great drivers) like Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Alex Zanardi, Juan Montoya, Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti, Al Unser (Sr. and Jr.), A.J. Foyt, et al. Now we have an overhyped bikini model, who's managed to trip over a lonely win once in her career, as the biggest "star" in the sport. I have to agree with Anthonyvop when he says that "the product" is the problem. But within that, there are several factors, and key among them (IMO) is the lack of recognizeable names that are capable of posting brilliant drives. As I bounce around Charlotte, I've probably run across Ryan Briscoe or Will Power at the mall or where ever. But to be honest, even though I recognize them during races, their faces aren't burned into my mind well enough that I would know them away from the track or TV. And since there would be no crowd of people around either, I'm sure that they can lead peaceful lives there. Juan Montoya, Jimmie Johnson, Dale, Jr. or Carl Edwards on the other hand... :eek:Quote:
Regarding the empty seats at NASCAR, you can only hi-gross folks for so long. I know tracks are offering deals now, but the combination of high prices and NASCAR handcuffing drivers on the track and in interviews has hurt them. I think the 'have at it boys' policy is a step in the right direction with that series. The racing has never been paramount in NASCAR, the personalities have driven the sport. Now they have returned to that type of promotion, letting the boys be boys.
So what does the IRL do now? I don't know. I don't know how to push a string across a table. And I think that's the position in which the IRL has now placed itself: trying to push a string across a (rough) table. But I would suggest that they begin promoting the drivers that they believe are the future of the sport, so that people feel some motivation to go to the track to see those drivers. Otherwise, what promoter in his right mind would pay a sanction fee to the IRL for the honor of having 10K people drag through the gate on a "big weekend"???
I watched something last night which was insightful, at least to me...I'm not a real big IRL/CCWS history buff.
It was the 2005 Homestead race. The stands were packed... to see the drivers? We have like eleven of them still competing, and they have established no broad recognition (outside of your favorite broad, that is).
The drivers you named, Jag, those guys brought out the fans. The roster we have today does not, even after years and championships past.
So who showed up at Homestead 2005? An army of Buddy Rice/ Sam Hornish supporters? The personalities are important, no doubt. But I think the arguments about star-making, U.S./ foreign driver counts, etc. are all side bets.
The product is the entertainment value of the competition, and that is what has grown stale. Even Danica haters must have loved the little dice she put on with TK. With spec cars and stratified budgets, unpredictability like that is all too rare a result.
I am a loyal, dues paying member of the Can't Stand Danica Fan Club. But yes, even I had to give the dog (fluffy show poodle) its due for that performance. Kanaan blocked her more than I've seen in any race in recent memory. But she dropped back near the end and dive bombed him, taking a well deserved second place in a straight fight. I was amazed; I didn't know she had it in her. Unfortunately I'll probably be drawing Social Security before she does that again. :dozey:Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjun Pullr
It was good stuff. So was the finish of the Brasil race, and more than a couple of other moments during the year.
And on the rare occasions when the product is good enough...don't you think 2 out of 100 people would buy it if they watched?
Good Post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
It seems to me we have nailed down the issues in this thread: poor racing, low wattage stars, and poor promotion. Am I missing something? I think the masses will come back based on star power, but they wont stick around if the product is poor. And...you can't build stars with poor racing. Otherwise, we have a PR machine that tells us how great 'the overhyped bikini model' is. (love that reference, BTW) So it boils down to product? The Field of Dreams Effect? (if you build it, they will come) I saw some pretty decent racing Saturday night. Vs. drew 400k viewers. We can have all the good racing you can stand, but if no one's watching, who cares.
I will say, as the new guy around here, you guys are pretty insightful. I don't see a lot of the bitching that goes on in other forums. Good posts overall, nice job.
Let's hope not. The better she does, the better the circuit will do. Like it or not, they have hitched thier wagons to her. She needs a lot more wins and a lot more performances like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
"... the masses will come back based on star power, but they wont stick around if the product is poor".
And that is why the $20M Indy500/ Charlotte 600 philosophy is hollow. Sure, maybe you prop up one race (which needs the least help) by sticking Kyle Bush in a D&R car. But he doesn't win, or continue to draw interest by running mid-pack for a full season.
Improve the product to stage good competition, then promote it like you stole it.
The Honda powered racing on-track is as boing as the Honda Odyssey or whatever that you just passed on the highway. Good reliable cars, but boring as all #ell.
They need manufacturer competetion and less ride buying piss poor racers that are good at nothing but wading up 2-3 cars a weekend. International racers were and are fine when they are quality drivers like Power, but they need to drag along a few accomplishments like a GP2 championship or some decent personality. Spec racing with a revolving door of anonymous zombies driving the cars is cr@p.
Nigel, I have to admit just now watching the 2005 Homestead race and delighting at the sight of two Hondas blowing up.
Another competing engine is the first step in changing anything. Honda didn't want to be sole supplier in '06, I'd be inclined to believe them now too.
Then why were they so adamant on a V6 when everyone else (i.e., potential competitors) wanted inline fours?Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjun Pullr
px400r: I think all the answers are in the Gordon Kirby article from April 2010 linked below, which is almost entirely in the own words of HPD's Erik Berkman.
Here Berkman is talking specifically about the 2.8 V6 for ALMS, but the strategy appears to be the same for the next IndyCar 2.4 V6. Honda had no intention of developing a GRE.
"We've been working very closely with the ACO regarding the sports car racing rules," Berkman says. "They've got new rules in 2011 and we've got a production-based V-6 engine that's under development right now that will be out there next year. Think Odyssey, Ridgeline, Pilot, Honda Accord or Acura TL. That family of engines is going to evolve into a full-on race engine that will be in P2 cars from next year."
There hadn't been much written in public about Honda's plans until this article came out, and it explained everything that had been hinted at previously. Most everything that Berkman refers to in the article has already come to pass. There is no reason to suspect his motives, as far as I can read.
ICONIC took what they were offered, and left the regulations open to accept a four cylinder. The chassis is designed to accept one, should a manufacturer step up. That's the only options, other than to also permit continued use of the V8 alongside the V6. Nobody seems interested in that prospect.
Full article:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no231.html
IIRC, the IRL did not want an equivalency formula and from what I've read, there was more interest from the manufacturers on a turbo-4/GRE engine than a V6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjun Pullr
I understand why HPD would want to have both the IRL and ALMS engines from the same basic design, but they must know that their objective would not produce the competition that they supposedly desire.
IMO, HPD needs to at least break even on this program, so their competition will come from sportscars while their profit will come from the IRL. It's the IRL that loses.
My opinion is a bit different from the ones I see above. A lot of folks think that the IRL's on-track product is not interesting to the casual fan, and thus the fanbase keeps shrinking. I think that instead the problem is that it no longer appeals as much to the Hardcore fan. What I see is an on-track product that is actually OK to the casual fan. A lot of races this season have been fairly entertaining if you're flipping the channel and happen to watch for a few minutes. I'd say that the racing in 2010 was, on a superficial level at least, more entertaining than the IRL has been in awhile. The problem though is that there's not much beneath the surface. I'd say that the competition level of the drivers is good, the series has 10-15 really talented OW drivers, and maybe 6-10 that have a legit shot at a win each week. That is pretty decent.
What the series needs though is a more competitive 3rd and 4th team that can compete with the Big-2. Andretti has lot a step, and we need another team additionally to spice things up. It also needs a few more American drivers, and it needs more technical variety (ie engine, chassis, etc.). These are the sorts of things that the hardcore fan WANTS, and not only is not getting, but is deciding to leave the sport because the deeper level of interest is not there. The IRL is worrying about getting the casual fan, but the sport has been shrinking primarily because it has lost interest to the hardcore fans. What it needs to be doing is getting those hardcore fans back. They are still out there and would come back if the technical variety and competitive rivalry came back. Right now what they have is an on-track product that is superficially entertaining, but is lacking when it comes to the hardcore fanbase.
No manufacturer offered a GRE. Baretzky from Audi has been talking about one for at least two years, and doesn't have one.
Honda wanted to build a V6 to demonstrate relevance to their consumer products.
So IndyCar writes a spec to permit both. The alternative was to dictate a program to their only investing partner, who may not have seen it in their best interest to continue participation.
Re-introducing variables is required to interest both hardcore and casual fans. A new spec, high downforce car is not going to accomplish that, even with minor differences between aero kits. Engine competition will, IndyCar invites it, and that includes 4 cylinder turbos.
The problem is a lack of other partners to make an equivalent investment.
As NASCAR is a sanctioning body, it may have limited anti-trust protection like the NFL has, but not the absolute anti-trust protection that MLB has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
An example of this in action is the 1985 lawsuit, United States Football League v. National Football League. The USFL felt the NFL had a monopoly by operating teams in most major stadiums and having broadcasting contracts with all 3 major networks, and that this was preventing the USFL from transitioning to a fall schedule to compete directly with the NFL. The jury found that the NFL did have a monopoly, but since the USFL had begun its fall transition before the case went to court, the USFL was only entitled to $1 of damages.
So for someone to sue NASCAR for anti-trust, they have to prove NASCAR is keeping them off television and restricting their access to major tracks.
If NASCAR were to take over IndyCar they would be taken to court not for anti-trust issues, but more likely for a sanity hearing.
If that is the case, then they truly are hurting...my bad for just dumping a lot of this on ISC. Their MO with Michigan was to not really push the IRL tickets the way they did the NASCAR tickets, and it ended up showing.....Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
I think Miami sports fans are a small number compared to the population. Look at the lack of attendance that every sport that isnt' U of M football or the Dolphins gets treated at times...Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
If the HEAT don't sell out every game, it wouldn't shock me....Miami area sports fans don't have the most sterling record of being there week in week out no matter what...
Still...12k in fans is an embarassment for everyone involved, and they missed a decent race.....no one can say there wasn't action.
Baretzky disagrees...Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjun Pullr
The full article is available at: http://gordonkirby.com/categories/co..._is_no257.htmlQuote:
Baretzky is frustrated that IndyCar failed to embrace the 'GRE' for its 2012 formula. Earlier this year Randy Bernard told me not a single manufacturer was ready to proceed with a 'GRE' in time for 2012, but Baretzky refutes that assertion.
"I told Randy in March at least three of these engines would be ready to run next year. I said, 'Randy you can have at least three engines. They are on the way.' I knew that at the time because the companies had told me about their plans. Each of Citroen, Ford and BMW have these engines. These three engines will be homologated by January 1st in the coming year and six months later the main components will be on the market and available to anyone who wants to buy them.
IMO, the problem is the IRL's aversion to real change.Quote:
The problem is a lack of other partners to make an equivalent investment.
"Randy you can have at least three engines. They are on the way."
"...Citroen, Ford and BMW have these engines..."
Three engines, 1.6L turbocharged, introduced for 2011 WRC competition at the Paris Auto show. 900 HP. If you bolt all three of them together, that is. They are stock block 300 HP engines. Ulrich doesn't even have one of those.
You think you can make 750 HP out of the stock architecture of a 1.6 L Ford Ecoboost engine block? With time to construct bespoke engines and astronomical budgets, it will be a snap for F1.
All of which is irrelevant to Indycar, unless you want to race Delta Wings. Which is irrelevant to IndyCar.
You are correct. All of this is irrelevant to change for the future- which the IRL will likely never see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjun Pullr
Well, that reads to me like the "We need the Delta" philosophy, or the "Let it all burn" philosophy. Sorry for my reluctance to accept either.
The point is that no manufacturer has a suitable GRE to install in an Indycar, and none have expressed an interest in funding the development and supply of one. Or a bespoke V6 to match Honda's.
That's cool, Rally cars are fun to watch. Particularly the Ford Fiesta. Duratec 2.0L turbo, run in 2009 at Pike's Peak with 800 HP.
They are. But they (rally cars) are not filling stadiums with race fans, either. My opinion is the thing has to be star driven. Like it or not, we live in a TMZ world, where people are interested in celebrity. IndyCar/IRL has hitched thier wagons to Danica, but there is no other driver poised to have the level of off track success that she has enjoyed. She has not lived up to the hype machine, for whatever reason, onthe track. I think they'll come to see 'the pretty girl kick the boy's asses', as long as she does that. At that point, it becomes about product, keeping the people hooked on the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjun Pullr
The point wasn't about the popularity of WRC ( big overseas), the X Games, or Tanner Foust. It was about the engine.
Hypothetical: Kyle Bush races IndyCar.
His 2011 season begins with little testing because of conflicting race schedules, but Bush gets some pre-season laps at Barber. The top seats are spoken for, so his sponsors buys a full ride with D&R.
Justin Wilson fills him with road racing skillz, and the attendance and TV views are up 30% for the opener at St. Pete. Bush P 16.
Next race, Tags takes him out. Bush punches Tags. The western world is in a tumult.
MO MENTUM. People are watching, Bush earns P11 at the next race. Jury is deliberating...
Indy. One practice crash, qualifies 2 mph off the pace. Lots of cameras, lots more Nascar fans. Everlast signs on and gives him a pair of gloves.
Bush P6. Nascar Jane to Nascar Joe..."Do the red cars always win?"
On goes the season, maybe some decent results, with great luck a podium. Lots of questions. Less people sticking around to hear the answers. Nascar fans realize the deck is stacked, or begin to question the magnificence of their heroes.
Boastful IndyCar fans alienate the newcomers, even though nobody else has a shot in a D&R car either. By season's end, Kyle Bush = Paul Tracy.
The entertainment value is unpredictable competition. That requires variables in equipment, to challenge the skill levels of the drivers and teams. Drivers like Bush are recognized for their success in competition, and perhaps they become stars.
It doesn't work the other way around, not for long. I think Sammy would agree, and Danica will continue to learn.