Ralf's gone crazy!! Or has he..?

Well, just read an apparent quote from Ralf Schumacher stating that he thinks that apart from Alonso and Raikkonen, he has 'no reason to hide behind anybody' (else).

Well, when I read the hyperbolic title (Ralf think's he's one of F1's top three) I thought he'd lost the plot, but his comments provoke a bit more thought...

Who the hell else is there!?! Fisichella? Ralf and he were pretty equal and he's never really going to go anywhere nowadays!
But then again, neither is Ralf (and I like, yes, like the guy!), by the same token (sorry Pino!), neither is Trulli, and personally I'd say Ralf and Jarno are pretty even on balance over a season.
Virtually everyone else in in the same boat(worryingly heading towards has-beens), or a rookie!

I think Ralf is completely delusional when he says Toyota's F1 title is only a matter of time (except when F1 becomes too expensive and all the manufacturers leave and Toyota wins like they did in IMSA by being the only people with a half-decent budget!).

However, Fisi is fast, no doubt, but not champion material. Wurz is no better than him, as team-mates neither were Ralf, Heidfeld, Massa or Sato. Button was slower, Barrichello's slower than Button, Kubica's no quicker than Heidfeld, Kovaleinen no quicker than Fisichella!

So, by a convoluted, and completely subjective(!) approach, the only drivers better than Ralf are, indeed, Alonso and Raikkonen.

There is a vague point to this thread, perhaps just to say two things;
Drivers change over time, and so it will be interesting in particular to see how the rookies, and Kubica and Massa perform and develop over the course of the season.
It will in all probability be a great season, hopefully very open for the drivers title and race wins.

But also, it's quite regrettable that apart from McLaren and Ferrari (excluding Hamilton, as a rookie), isn't it a shame that F1 seems a little lacking in depth this season, just as it seemed to in 1994, when the only top drivers were Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna?

Only time will tell whether we have a new Hakkinen in amongst the unproven drivers, and who will match their potential, and who will be the Lehto's and Alesi's of the grid.
Either way, I'm not placing any money on Ralf to be 2007 champion! ;)

In my opinion David Coulthard and Rubens Barrichello have achieved more than RS and are better drivers.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

In my opinion David Coulthard and Rubens Barrichello have achieved more than RS and are better drivers.

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Achieved more, no question!
But I would rather have Ralf on a good day than Coulthard on a good day, and Barrichello's pretty anonymous most of the time, just like the other two!
Which kind of makes the point, who, exactly is coming along to push these guys?

Frentzen and probably Alesi were in F1 longer than they should have been allowed to be, I think DC, Ralf and Rubens all have another season in them, but beyond that, what is there to gain, and who exactly are drivers like Ralf going to be worried about beating?!

Bless him, I am sure he will be great in DTM :D

He isn't winning anything, apart from Employee Of The Month at Burger King ;)

Well Button is certainly better than Ralf now and got the better of him on some of the driver's circuits.
I agree that Fisi isn't doing much and is not WDC material but he's still better than Ralf and DC maybe a windbag (and maybe that helps in the Red Bull :) )but the Red Bull has developed better than the Toyota due to his help.

Ralf is an overpaid has been and hasn't got the skills to help Toyota forward (who has?).

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Originally Posted by Narr

Ralf is an overpaid has been and hasn't got the skills to help Toyota forward (who has?).

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I'm not sure there's anyone at Toyota who's not an overpaid has-been ;)

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Originally Posted by Osella

Achieved more, no question!
But I would rather have Ralf on a good day than Coulthard on a good day, and Barrichello's pretty anonymous most of the time, just like the other two!

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Really? IMO RS was never too impressive, even while winning - good solid driver and that's all. DC had some memorable wins, like Monaco 02 or France 00. About Rubens, for me he is on par with RS - not weaker, maybe slightly better in qualifying.

I would have to rate Massa as far above RS now that he is at Ferrari and has matured as a driver.

If Ralf thinks he's third, then let's see where he ends up in the WDC at the end of the year. I don't think Toyota can carry him to 3rd, but let's see how close he comes.

He says this to boost his confidence.. and for some reason he feels the whole world needs to hear it..Every driver that is on that grid thinks that they are the best but few actually say it..Ralf on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Osella

Achieved more, no question!
But I would rather have Ralf on a good day than Coulthard on a good day, and Barrichello's pretty anonymous most of the time, just like the other two!

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On a good day, such as Silverstone 2003, Barrichello is as good as anybody. I'm not sure I could say the same about Ralf Schumacher.

Ralf is a steady enough driver, but you could count on one hand the amount of times he's ever looked like a proper racer.

His low point came at Monaco 2005 when his brother tried to pass him on the last lap, almost waking him up in the process. His comment "as far as I'm concerned the race was over" sums up his attitude to competition.

He's a safe pair of hands most of the time, but certainly not worth Toyota's millions.

One thing Ralf is for sure is a very very fast driver, than he has the ability and the know how to setup an F1 car as not too many of them can do it.
He isn't very consistent tough, but neither are the others but for MS and FA, and maybe FM (he is becoming more and more consistent) and KR.

So with MS out of it Ralf might be the 3rd best driver if you take everything into account.

PS: Button will need another few hundreds of races, and a some contract buy outs, till he gets Ralf's number of F1 wins!

Ralf was only equal to Montoya, so clearly his claim is ridicolous LOL

I think Ralf is a good driver, but as someone said in this forum some time ago, he´s the personification of mediocrity.

He won some races, he can have a good weekend and achieve good results but... how many times do we see Ralf doing great things? I mean, great good things. He can score a lot of points with the proper car, he can drive a solid race but in my opinion he can´t win a WDC, no matter the team he´s driving for.

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Originally Posted by K-Pu

I think Ralf is a good driver, but as someone said in this forum some time ago, he´s the personification of mediocrity.

He won some races, he can have a good weekend and achieve good results but... how many times do we see Ralf doing great things? I mean, great good things. He can score a lot of points with the proper car, he can drive a solid race but in my opinion he can´t win a WDC, no matter the team he´s driving for.

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The question is how many of them have what it takes to be WDC on the current grid? 2 maybe 3 of the known quantities!

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Originally Posted by ioan

The question is how many of them have what it takes to be WDC on the current grid?

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It's difficult to say, as there are many variables. For instance, I think Fisichella could win the title, if given a car with a massive performance advantage (such as F2002, F2004 or the 1992 Williams), and an inferior team-mate. But he obviously didn't win either of the last two championships, despite being in the championship winning (though not necessarily the best) car.

It's difficult to judge.

Ralf has DC-syndrome I think...although I rate DC above Ralf comfortably.

Alonso and Raikkonen and the stand-out pair, followed by a group headed by Button and comprising Barrichello, Coulthard, Fisichella and Ralfie.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

It's difficult to say, as there are many variables. For instance, I think Fisichella could win the title, if given a car with a massive performance advantage (such as F2002, F2004 or the 1992 Williams), and an inferior team-mate. But he obviously didn't win either of the last two championships, despite being in the championship winning (though not necessarily the best) car.

It's difficult to judge.

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With such an advantage things change... but:

Those cars were lightyears away from the rest of the grid, and with one of these, and some weaker team-mates... And not many opposition. So if you need an all-conquering car, a bad team-mate and the rest of the teams leaving you alone and you´re not a really good driver... well, I think you can´t be WDC. Too many things have to happen out there to put you at the top if you´re Ralf Schumacher.

It´s like Titanic winning 11 oscars... absolutely awful! But there were no serious competitors out there, and that is a big issue. My conclussion is: Ralf could win only if they give him the WDC, because having the best car, the worst teammate and no opposition is like giving you the title as a present.

If Ralf Schumacher finishes in the Top 3 of the World Championship, i will bungee-jump off the severn bridge :p : thats how unlikely it is. Ive got more chance of racing in f1 than he has of finishing in the Top 3 :p :

I remember the Canadian GP of 2001. Ralf had a race long battle with Michael and came out on top. What happened to that driver?

I think Ralf has the ability to be as good as anyone out there with the possible exception of Alonso. His problem is his head. He can't seem to ever find the right mindset to carry him through a full season.

That's why he's so inconsistent. He has shown flashes of brilliance such as the purple patch he went through in mid 2003 and parts of 2001 but on the whole has been very average.

One of the biggest differences between Ralf and Michael is that Michael had the head of a world champion. Ralf? His heads someplace else.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

I remember the Canadian GP of 2001. Ralf had a race long battle with Michael and came out on top.

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I remember the Canadian GP of 2006. Ralf was absolutely lost (as usual).

After this season, when a couple of rookies and another couple of almost-rookies finish the season on top of him, he'll be totally lost (maybe he can be his brother's assistant in "Scuderia Schumi Rosso").

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Originally Posted by andreag

I remember the Canadian GP of 2006. Ralf was absolutely lost (as usual).

After this season, when a couple of rookies and another couple of almost-rookies finish the season on top of him, he'll be totally lost (maybe he can be his brother's assistant in "Scuderia Schumi Rosso").

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I see that a thread about how RS may rank in todays F1 grid turned into a bashing party, like always!

BTW, how many drivers were that extraordinary in Montreal 2006 with a fast degrading track? (I give you a hint: MS and FA maybe).

As for the moment RS is one of the drivers with most F1 wins on the grid, yet people will rate Fisichella,under achiever in the championship winning car, and Button the one time lucky man better than Ralf.

As for the rookies better wait and see.

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Originally Posted by ioan

As for the rookies better wait and see.

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For both, rookies and non-rookies, let's wait and see.

I have never seen any hunger or desire from Ralf. He never seems sure of why he's in F1. Of course he's talented, and he has shown flashes of a winning mentality, but it's as if he doesn't know where that comes from or how to apply it consistently.

I said, when Toyota announced Jarno & Ralf as their drivers, that they were not a combination to drive the team forward, and while they're not the only factor in a comparative lack of success, they are a factor. Both can produce superb performances when everything is in their favour, but when it's not they disappear.

With a fresh batch of rookies coming into F1 Ralf seriously needs to up his performances and show that he's up there with the best, but I don't think he can or will.

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Originally Posted by Osella

Well, just read an apparent quote from Ralf Schumacher stating that he thinks that apart from Alonso and Raikkonen, he has 'no reason to hide behind anybody' (else).

Well, when I read the hyperbolic title (Ralf think's he's one of F1's top three) I thought he'd lost the plot, but his comments provoke a bit more thought...

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A simple answer to the question raised at the topic: No. Yes would imply that he has been not-crazy before and now turned somehow different. I cannot see such a change.

:)

Nothing is wrong with Ralf's comment. If you don't believe in yourself, then why on earth are you racing? If you ask a similar question to anyone among the F1 drivers, most of them would put themselves quite close to the top, if not to the very top. So answer to the title of the thread: if Ralf has gone crazy, then probably everyone on the grid is crazy of rating himself highly!

I think it's quite obvious that Ralf is underrated. He has been well-tested against strong team-mates and has always been at least very close. Well, no-one insists that he is among the brightest stars, but for some reason he is one of the most-criticized drivers on the grid. Maybe there is something to do with the famous name and people somehow find it weird that he is not on the same level as Michael? Sometimes it seems that people are jealous to Ralf that he earns so much (more than their favourite driver!) and therefore are trying to express their frustration. What concerns salary, then there is nothing in Ralf's fault, so I can't get, why do you criticize him that he is paid so highly - actually thickness of wallet shouldn't be your worry at all. It's team's care, how much they think a driver is worth to be paid.

People's memory is short. In seasons like 1999 and 2001 probably many people thought that Ralf is if not a Top3 driver, then surely a Top6 driver. Like Murray Walker said during 1999 Nürburgring race: "Ralf is making his elder brother proud." Or something like that. And on those days it looked that it's just a matter of time, when he will become a serious title contender. It seems that Ralf was rated higher in Williams than in Toyota as Toyota has such a low reputation. When Ralf was driving for Williams, then before every season (02-04) he was nominated as one of the title candidates and there wasn't so much speculation whether he can do it - he was driving in a competitive team and it looked obvious that he couldn't be ignored when talking about top contenders.

Interesting that you rate DC higher than RS - DC never looked that convincing at a top team than RS and he didn't look so close to his team-mate than Ralf tended to be (although Montoya probably can't be put on the same level as the Finns). It means - Ralf always looked more convincing and more "on the picture" than DC when they were driving in Williams and McLaren respectively. And if you say that Rubens can be as good as anyone "on his day", then the same can be said about Ralf, although his best races haven't been so shining and convincing than maybe Rubens's.

And finally a remark about Toyota's drivers, who are put responsible for their team's competitiveness. It looks as though as Honda and RBR are also not going to be great this season, but I haven't noticed anyone criticizing their drivers for team's mediocre car! So if Toyota drivers are responsbile for their team's form, then how come that other drivers are not responsible for their team's form? :eek:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I have never seen any hunger or desire from Ralf. He never seems sure of why he's in F1.

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Despite that, he still managed to very often beat the so-called Super Montoya in equal cars. Imagine if he had been hungry - he would have killed Montoya :D

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Originally Posted by Osella

I think Ralf is completely delusional when he says Toyota's F1 title is only a matter of time (except when F1 becomes too expensive and all the manufacturers leave and Toyota wins like they did in IMSA by being the only people with a half-decent budget!).

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Title only a matter of time? Well, I know one acquaintance, who said golden words: "It would be a miracle if Toyota won't win a title in the next 20 years!" :D So his logic is - takes what it takes, but one day they will be "there"... if they of course want to wait and participate so long. Toyota reminds me a bit of Chinese ski-team that is tried to be built up from blankness, but has a lot of potential. I'm also eager to see, what the Chinese can do in the next 10-20 years. :)

Yes, COMPLETELY insane :p :

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Imagine if he had been hungry...

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But he wasn't, and he isn't (or at least doesn't appear to be).

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Originally Posted by jens

Nothing is wrong with Ralf's comment. If you don't believe in yourself, then why on earth are you racing? If you ask a similar question to anyone among the F1 drivers, most of them would put themselves quite close to the top, if not to the very top. So answer to the title of the thread: if Ralf has gone crazy, then probably everyone on the grid is crazy of rating himself highly!

I think it's quite obvious that Ralf is underrated. He has been well-tested against strong team-mates and has always been at least very close. Well, no-one insists that he is among the brightest stars, but for some reason he is one of the most-criticized drivers on the grid. Maybe there is something to do with the famous name and people somehow find it weird that he is not on the same level as Michael? Sometimes it seems that people are jealous to Ralf that he earns so much (more than their favourite driver!) and therefore are trying to express their frustration. What concerns salary, then there is nothing in Ralf's fault, so I can't get, why do you criticize him that he is paid so highly - actually thickness of wallet shouldn't be your worry at all. It's team's care, how much they think a driver is worth to be paid.

People's memory is short. In seasons like 1999 and 2001 probably many people thought that Ralf is if not a Top3 driver, then surely a Top6 driver. Like Murray Walker said during 1999 Nürburgring race: "Ralf is making his elder brother proud." Or something like that. And on those days it looked that it's just a matter of time, when he will become a serious title contender. It seems that Ralf was rated higher in Williams than in Toyota as Toyota has such a low reputation. When Ralf was driving for Williams, then before every season (02-04) he was nominated as one of the title candidates and there wasn't so much speculation whether he can do it - he was driving in a competitive team and it looked obvious that he couldn't be ignored when talking about top contenders.

Interesting that you rate DC higher than RS - DC never looked that convincing at a top team than RS and he didn't look so close to his team-mate than Ralf tended to be (although Montoya probably can't be put on the same level as the Finns). It means - Ralf always looked more convincing and more "on the picture" than DC when they were driving in Williams and McLaren respectively. And if you say that Rubens can be as good as anyone "on his day", then the same can be said about Ralf, although his best races haven't been so shining and convincing than maybe Rubens's.

And finally a remark about Toyota's drivers, who are put responsible for their team's competitiveness. It looks as though as Honda and RBR are also not going to be great this season, but I haven't noticed anyone criticizing their drivers for team's mediocre car! So if Toyota drivers are responsbile for their team's form, then how come that other drivers are not responsible for their team's form? :eek:

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Good points jens, you know not too many around here can judge drivers objectively. :up:

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Originally Posted by jens

And finally a remark about Toyota's drivers, who are put responsible for their team's competitiveness. It looks as though as Honda and RBR are also not going to be great this season, but I haven't noticed anyone criticizing their drivers for team's mediocre car! So if Toyota drivers are responsbile for their team's form, then how come that other drivers are not responsible for their team's form? :eek:

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Of course they are all a part -just one of many - of making their own team competitive, but we're discussing Ralf.

I do agree with you that every driver needs self belief, but regardless of what has happened in the past, what makes anyone think Ralf will be able to back up his claim of being a top three driver in 2007, or in the future?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Of course they are all a part -just one of many - of making their own team competitive, but we're discussing Ralf.

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Well I doubt that a driver can make chassis or aero improvements on his own, so let's not exaggerate.
A driver can only give feedback on setups and try to find the right setup, they do not design the cars, and we should all agree that the Toyota F1 car is less than good in chassis and aero department.
As for setup and technical feedback Ralf is one of the best out there.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Well I doubt that a driver can make chassis or aero improvements on his own, so let's not exaggerate.

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Exaggerate? What exactly?

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Originally Posted by ioan

As for setup and technical feedback Ralf is one of the best out there.

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I'd be interested to know what this is based on. If true then it rather supports Ralf's view of himself as one of F1's top three, but then it also begs the question of why Toyota are sliding backwards.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I'd be interested to know what this is based on.

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Quotes that I won't dig up from the years when he was at Williams. You should know as much as this.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

If true then it rather supports Ralf's view of himself as one of F1's top three, but then it also begs the question of why Toyota are sliding backwards.

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Maybe because Toyota changed their technical direction almost every year, changing the design philosophy every time maybe? Because no matter how we look at it if the car's basis is not good than a driver can do squat, no matter how good a driver is (i.e. MS and the 2005 Ferrari, R. Brawn said the car was simply a flawed design).

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Originally Posted by ioan

Quotes that I won't dig up from the years when he was at Williams. You should know as much as this.

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I genuinely have not seen that said. I do recall that Sam Michael has been a big supporter of Ralf since their days at Jordan and Williams, which may explain it. It would be good if you could back up your comment with those quotes though ;)

I agree that a change of technical director doesn't help any team, which is exactly why I said that a driver is "just one of many" parts going towards making a competitive team.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I genuinely have not seen that said. I do recall that Sam Michael has been a big supporter of Ralf since their days at Jordan and Williams, which may explain it. It would be good if you could back up your comment with those quotes though ;)

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I have to earn a living first and than I might have time to dig up very old quotes. ;) :p :

Well the Toyota will be so far back he wont need to hide.....

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Originally Posted by Osella

However, Fisi is fast, no doubt, but not champion material. Wurz is no better than him, as team-mates neither were Ralf, Heidfeld, Massa or Sato. Button was slower, Barrichello's slower than Button, Kubica's no quicker than Heidfeld, Kovaleinen no quicker than Fisichella!

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You did point out that this is all subjective but this I dont agree with in the slightest. You say Button is slower than Fisi but they were only partnered together for 1 year, in 01, when the Benetton was a pile of junk for most of the year and JB was only in his second year of F1 and having never driven a bad race car before in his carrer. I agree with what you say about Wurz (about equal to Fisi in ability), Massa seemas to be making some big improvments recently, the rookies (and I'll include Kubica in this as he's only done 6 GP) cant be compared with the established drivers and the same goes for those that have only done 1 or 2 years. Barichello definitely seems to be past it to me though.

Overall I would say that Button is the third fastest driver in F1 at the moment as he doesnt make many mistakes, and whe the car is balanced he can get everything out of it. I do have some questionmarkes over Raikkonens overall ability but his speed isnt in question, and Alonso is quite clearly the best driver out their.

I suspect that if his name was Ralf Schwarz, he earned 2 million $ per year and he was driving for Williams (generally liked team), then people would like him a lot more.