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You probably thought I'd never say that, but for once there's a good reason:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/as...Zz7L&wom=false
Maybe the US isn't that petty and vindictive after all.Quote:
United States Ambassador John Roos also attended, marking the first time the United States has sent an envoy to the Hiroshima memorial ceremony.
More:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...est=latestnews
That will send the Japanese a message saying "We're not your enemies anymore".
Obama just insists on embarrassing my country.
Cuba? Or maybe Spain?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Will the headline in December be "Japan sends envoy to Pearl Harbor?"
Or Bataan?Quote:
Originally Posted by tannat
Or Nanking?
Or Korea?
I think when we rebuilt their country, that pretty much told them that we weren't their enemies anymore. They could have easily found themselves as a colony of the Allies/U.S. after World War II. At the very least, they could still be paying tribute to their conquerors. But last I checked, Japan was the 2nd (though now moving to 3rd with China's emergence) largest economy in the world. So despite getting the crap beaten out of them after losing WWII, they're doing pretty well now. We pay for their defense and they can use their money for R&D and infrastructure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
I believe in the concept of "total war". So if the thought of being totally destroyed bothers someone, don't start a war with a militarily strong nation. Simple as that. And if you do, well... what happens, happens. :dozey: But in the end, Japan has gotten the best end of this deal. So I suggest they just shut-up and move on. Japan has been pretty much let off the hook for its war crimes, so best to keep that can of "poor us" worms shut, IMO. There are more than a few still alive in China, Korea and various Pacific islands who could fill a stadium, and would probably say that the Japanese got what they had coming to them.
I hope so.
I don't believe in the concept of "total war", I believe in minimizing the damages and forgiveness. Finland started the Continuation War against the Soviet Union, yet the Soviet Union settled for a negotiated peace and didn't insist a total surrendering. And the Soviet/Russian leaders have visited the Finnish Tomb of the Unknown Soldier just like the Finnish leaders have visited the Soviet/Russian Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. For those I respect the Russians more than I respect the Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Not as much as the US has for its war crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
The US invaded and occupied Hawaii before Japan, so Pearl Harbor wasn't American territory, but in anthonyvop's terms disputed territory. But thumbs up for Clinton who acknowledged that and apologized:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii
I also don't believe in total surrendering, but in resistance. If you insist total surrendering, you can easily end up in guerrilla warfare for decades, like the US did in Vietnam and now in Iraq and Afghanistan or Israel has done in the Middle East.Quote:
Overthrow of 1893 — the Republic of Hawaii (1894–1898)
In January 1893, Queen Liliʻuokalani was overthrown and replaced by a Provisional Government composed of members of the Committee of Safety. Controversy filled the following years as the queen tried to re-establish her throne. The administration of President Grover Cleveland commissioned the Blount Report, which concluded that the removal of Liliʻuokalani was illegal. The U.S. government first demanded that Queen Liliʻuokalani be reinstated, but the Provisional Government refused. Congress followed with another investigation, and submitted the Morgan Report on February 26, 1894, which found all parties (including Minister Stevens) with the exception of the queen "not guilty" from any responsibility for the overthrow.[37] The accuracy and impartiality of both the Blount and Morgan reports has been questioned by partisans on both sides of the debate over the events of 1893.[36][38][39][40]
In 1993, a joint Apology Resolution regarding the overthrow was passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton, apologizing for the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom.[40] It is the first time in American history that the United States government has apologized for overthrowing the government of a sovereign nation.
ʻIolani Palace in Honolulu, formerly the residence of the Hawaiian monarch, was the capitol of the Republic of Hawaii.
The Provisional Government of Hawaii ended on July 4, 1894, replaced by the Republic of Hawaii.
The first Japanese immigrants arrived in Hawaii in 1885 as contract laborers for the sugar cane and pineapple plantations. Puerto Rican immigration to Hawaii began when Puerto Rico's sugar industry was devastated by two hurricanes in 1899. The devastation caused a world wide shortage in sugar and a huge demand for the product from Hawaii. Hawaiian sugar plantation owners began to recruit the jobless, but experienced, laborers in Puerto Rico. Two distinct waves of Korean immigration to Hawaii have occurred in the last century. The first arrived in between 1903 and 1924; the second wave began in 1965.
Annexation — the Territory of Hawaii (1898–1959)
After William McKinley won the presidential election in 1896, Hawaii's annexation to the U.S. was again discussed. The previous president, Grover Cleveland, was a friend of Queen Liliʻuokalani. McKinley was open to persuasion by U.S. expansionists and by annexationists from Hawaii. He met with annexationists from Hawaii Lorrin Thurston, Francis Hatch and William Kinney. After negotiations, in June 1897, McKinley agreed to a treaty of annexation with these representatives of the Republic of Hawaii.[41] The president then submitted the treaty to the U.S. Senate for approval.
The Newlands Resolution in Congress annexed the Republic to the United States and it became the Territory of Hawaii. Despite some opposition in the islands, the Newlands Resolution was passed by the House June 15, 1898, by a vote of 209 to 91, and by the Senate on July 6, 1898, by a vote of 42 to 21.
In 1900, Hawaii was granted self-governance and retained ʻIolani Palace as the territorial capitol building. Despite several attempts to become a state, Hawaii remained a territory for sixty years. Plantation owners and key capitalists, who maintained control through financial institutions, or "factors," known as the Big Five, found territorial status convenient, enabling them to continue importing cheap foreign labor; such immigration was prohibited in various states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
So?
I don't believe in Jealous, Illogical, anti-American, Anti-Semitic, Fascists and yet you exist!
It would be a pretty out of date headline, especially considering that there is the Japanese Cultural Center of Hawai‘i and has been there since at least 1965.Quote:
Originally Posted by tannat
http://jcch.com/
We have a philosophical difference of opinion there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
When has the U.S. ever done anything that would even begin to compare to what the Japanese did before and during WWII? There is not a major country on the face of the earth that doesn't have SOME blood on its hands. But when a country had a POLICY which made it acceptable to take foreign girls as young as 10 or 11 and make them sexual playthings for bored soldiers, and then that country refuses even now to acknowledge the horror of that, IMO, that is a country that deserved every right hook, body blow and uppercut that we laid on them. It's unfortunate that so many Japanese noncombatants lost their lives in the atomic attacks that ended Japan's war effort. But it would have been even more unfortunate for more American soldiers to have died trying to take Japan house by house. I believe in "total war" because it works. It has always worked. It worked for William Tecumseh Sherman as well as it worked for Julius Caesar. It blows away the illusion that war can be neat & tidy. It makes war less socially acceptable, not more. It makes countries think twice about waging war when they know that their entire nation might be turned into a fireball. But even in total war, it is not acceptable to rape and torture just for the "fun" of it. So whatever past actions the U.S. might have engaged in, our society, unlike Japanese society, has not been willing to just sweep anything and everything under the rug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
IMO, we should never be apologetic to the Japanese for Hiroshima or Nagasaki. They should be glad that they surrendered when they did, so that they didn't have to face another mushroom cloud over another of their cities. I know there is a movement in Japan right now which is trying to get such an apology from us. The way I see it, they got massive Allied financial assistance, perpetual U.S. taxpayer funded military protection (until we finally go bankrupt) and a U.S. trade policy which allows Japanese companies to FREELY do business here, while they continue to have protectionist trade policies there. So they need to stop whining for an apology and be thankful for all that we have given them. And since the glass house they have from WWII is bigger than ours, like I said, they'd be better off leaving that can of worms alone.
I made a quick "off the cuff" comment, Rollo..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Cheers on the education :up:
HOOO-WHEE-- that was a good one; to the point and truthful.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
I, personally and inclusively, don't know anybody that loses sleep over our atomic attack on the Empire of Japan. There are all manner of "what if..." scenarios that deal with how the war could have or should have ended differently. I have read of some where Japan was trying to surrender by going through Russian diplomatic channels but Stalin wouldn't pass on the messages until he was in a position to also declare war on Japan with sufficient troops in place to gain territorial concessions, which he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
As far as "not being your enemies anymore...", we sent plenty of those long before Pearl Harbor saying "if you stop your invasion of China, we won't be enemies anymore." They chose to ignore them.
The Japanese bit off far more than they could ever chew and paid a high price for their folly. Perhaps that's what they should discuss at their memorial services.
Yes. Although England didn't usually use excessive force to retaliate the attacks of the local resistance or trying to prevent them. They did enough to contain the problem, but not too much to aggravate it. After all, the situation seems now be quite good. And that's not thanks to total surrendering of the Irish, but to negotiations and compromises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
But do you think being a jealous, illogical, anti-American, anti-semitic fascist is a good idea that works? That's the point. You obviously think total warfare is a good idea that works.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Let's turn that around and ask if YOU would like Japan to take care of the military protection of the US or live on Japanese hand outs? Would you like to have Japanese military bases in the US?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
The reason the US wants to take care and supervise the Japanese military defense is that they don't want to let the Japanese military to grow that big and powerful that they could take care of it by themselves and maybe become a potential military threat again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
It is and it did. Just ask Japan and Germany.
that makes no sense.......there was not an insistence on total surrender, but a lack of total warfare of kill them all without mercy....even if it means a few nukes on civilain targets...but no, we going to do a police action.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
well you are working at the taco bell, stuffing those tacos....Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
like your description of yourself.... jealous, illogical, anti-American, anti-semitic fascist :up:
wish I could have said it first......got any children named adolf??
The USA took Japan under it's protection after WW II to keep the Soviets and other communist nations out. Japan has and has had it's own National Defence Force since the adoption of it's new constitution after the war, although it is doubtful whether it could stop a Soviet move against it. The defense force can be as large as the Japanese care to spend. They are forbidden by their own constitution to start offense military operations outside of their borders. They could amend their constitution if they wished but have generally found it cheaper to shrug their shoulders and point at their constitution when it comes to joining UN actions which, amongst other things, keeps their oil supply running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
I seriously doubt the Japanese want to have another go at the US regardless of how large their military may become. But if they want to, have them take a number and get in line. We'll be with them as soon as we can.
^^^This is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7
I agree. Japan is now a pacified, largely non-military nation. Whether they're currently 2nd or 3rd, the Japanese get their global strength from the size of their economy, not the size of their army/navy/air force.Quote:
I seriously doubt the Japanese want to have another go at the US regardless of how large their military may become. But if they want to, have them take a number and get in line. We'll be with them as soon as we can.
? They both lost and millions of their citizens died. The US didn't lose as much, but still almost half a million Americans died:Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
No, I still don't believe total warfare was/is a good idea for anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Yep and The Murderous Nazi and Tojo regimes were stopped.
Let me clue you in to 2 little facts.
#1 Japan ATTACKED the US
#2 Germany DECLARED WAR on the US.
Now taking those 2 facts into account I fully expected the US to do everything within it's power to destroy both Governments. Not to partake in a holding action. Not to negotiate but to Destroy so that the US would never have to worry about it's citizens being attacked again. Unconditional Surrender.
Seeing as Japan was in no way interested in unconditional surrender the US had no choice but to destroy them with every means available.
End of Debate!
Actually Japan attacked Hawaii and Germany was so far away they couldn't reach the US to do much damage there. Negotiated peace treaties would probably have saved hundreds of thousands of people. Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand declared a war against Finland, but there was no total warfare. Britain bombed a harbor in Finland and killed one dock worker, and that was about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
OMG Are you really that ignorant of History?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Some more facts for you to dwell on.
Hawaii is part of the USA.
Germany had negotiated non-aggression pacts with both the UK and the USSR.
Negotiation with an evil regime only benefits the Evil regime.
No, it was disputed territory that the US had illegally invaded and occupied:Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii
Quote:
Overthrow of 1893 — the Republic of Hawaii (1894–1898)
In January 1893, Queen Liliʻuokalani was overthrown and replaced by a Provisional Government composed of members of the Committee of Safety. Controversy filled the following years as the queen tried to re-establish her throne. The administration of President Grover Cleveland commissioned the Blount Report, which concluded that the removal of Liliʻuokalani was illegal. The U.S. government first demanded that Queen Liliʻuokalani be reinstated, but the Provisional Government refused. Congress followed with another investigation, and submitted the Morgan Report on February 26, 1894, which found all parties (including Minister Stevens) with the exception of the queen "not guilty" from any responsibility for the overthrow.[37] The accuracy and impartiality of both the Blount and Morgan reports has been questioned by partisans on both sides of the debate over the events of 1893.[36][38][39][40]
In 1993, a joint Apology Resolution regarding the overthrow was passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton, apologizing for the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom.[40] It is the first time in American history that the United States government has apologized for overthrowing the government of a sovereign nation.
Ladies and Gentlemen, this was Jag, not Tony with this posting. Telling all you US haters (hello Eki) that all Americans pretty much are on side with this one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Apolgizing for dropping the Bomb's of Hiroshima and Nagasaki comes when Japan will completly admit they were a nation that raped, pillaged and stole everything not nailed down from 1933 to 1945. THAT wont happen...
The Marshall Plan of the US is proof positive that Americans are a far more kind conquerer than any other nation on earth......and it wasn't about conquest....it was about righting the balance...
EKi, as for Hawaii, the Americans under Clinton apologized to the Native Hawaiians for that. Maybe you would feel different if Finland actually conquered something...
My grandfather was on a troop transport ship docked in New Guinea when he heard about the Japaneese surrender. He and all his fellow sailors went up on deck to celebrate, and were struck by an awe inspiring sight. Hundreds, maybe thousands of transport ships as far as the eye could see in various states of being loaded, all for the invasion of Japan. How many hundreds of thousands of men on both sides would have been killed with an all out invasion? Just look at the fact that we were still using Purple Hearts ordered for that invasion up through the first Gulf War.
No, despite the ravings of Anti-Americans like Eki, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while horrific, SAVED more lives than it killed.
They did:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish...Karelia_(1941)
I don't know if Finland has apologized, but at least several Finnish political leaders spent years in prison after the war as war criminals and Finland paid $300 millions of war reparations to the Soviet Union.
Negotiations before an all-out invasion would have saved even more. As far as I know, the Japanese had practically all but surrendered already before the A-bombs and were ready for negotiations.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
The Queen of Wikipedia strikes again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Even if it was disputed in your world of rainbows and unicorns Japan had no claim whatsoever on Hawaii........So your argument is moot.
Are you serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Japan tried to negotiate a truce to save their genocidal asses. They were not ready to accept Unconditional Surrender which was the only option.
In your world Germany would still be under Nazi Control.
Nobody don't accept unconditional surrender if they have a chance to go on fighting. If you want to stop a war short and minimize losses on both sides, you shouldn't insist on unconditional surrender. Luckily the Americans were smart enough to let the Emperor keep his life, freedom and partly his position too, otherwise the Japanese would have fought to the death. After the Emperor surrendered, there was no other option for the Japanese but to surrender too. Afghanistan is different, there is no central figure who could surrender for the whole Afghanistan, or even the whole Taliban, and therefore the fighting will go on and on and on...Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
So you think it would have been a good Idea to leave the Nazis and the genocidal, Tojo Government in power?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
If you start a fight, then the tables turn and your opponent comes back strong... and then pulls a gun, cocks it and points it at your head, my advice would be to go for the unconditional surrender. But the Japanese elected to take two rounds to the head instead. That was their choice. Why would I feel sorry about that? They have no one but themselves to blame for what happened. And considering where they are now (and how they got there), I expect a "Thank you for rebuilding us after you had to destroy us, Uncle Sam." But I'll be damned if we should ever consider an apology for bombing them. If anything, they should apologize for bombing Pearl Harbor and for the atrocities they committed in Nanking and other places. But clearly, they're not going to do that. Screw 'em. They'll either get over it or they won't.
Lesson: don't let your mouth write checks that your azz can't cash. And if you start to lose, wave the white flag before your opponent polishes you off totally.
Strange, but there are sunken ships not far from me that can be dived from the shore, and German U-boats sunk them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
I also notice that you failed to mention that this instance was the first time the UN secretary general took part in such a ceremony. I'm sure this is evidence that they are just as evil as the US now.