FORD - The potential is there ?

I don't know about what you guys think but it seems to me that M-Sport has all the necessary tools to beat Citroën. Somehow they just can't seem to get it all together.

The brains are there, the car sure is on par technology wise.
The car engineering looks top class.
The PIPO engine is top class.
The shocks, from REIGER, are awesome.
The tires are same for everyone.
The people running the show have experience at top level.
There is plenty of testing for the drivers.
The drivers show speed, but not consistently. Why is that ?

How can a driver be fast like hell one day holding it all together, then not anymore the next day ?

And how come it doesn't work on tarmac ?

So what the heck is wrong with them ?

Spending resources on the managers useless son....
Investing on drivers with money and not with talent...
Too much focus on manufacturers championship...

http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index...en_Piloten.htm

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

Too much focus on manufacturers championship...

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+1

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Originally Posted by jbmarcus21

http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index...en_Piloten.htm

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Interesting report. Like you wrote first time we hear about 3rd driver and also speaking about less resource than Citroen as explanation why they are behind

They have to bring back Galli if they would like to be good on Asphalt and Gravel with one pilot

Well, I think that Ford needs to think forward and think about the future. It would be necessary to hire one young talent and develop him and see what happens. They can continue with their pay drivers and just add another car to their park (it is not that expensive anymore when the team is already there and etc.). It is now clear indication by Citroen that investing in youth is a good thing. I can imagine the amount of publicity they got in France when Ogier won in front of Loeb. There are plenty of young talents moving around to test. Lets say, Mikkelsen, Hänninen, Ketomaa, Tänak and a few older talents like Meeke, Wilks, Atkinson, Galli etc. I think that the one who can encourage the teams is FIA who should reintroduce third driver rule. Formerly they wanted thrid driver to be the one without podium finish in last five years. Maybe they should changes it so that the third driver should be under 35 years old (or under 30 years). And there should also be also rule that the team manager and official drivers cannot be close relatives;-)

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Originally Posted by bluuford

Well, I think that Ford needs to think forward and think about the future. It would be necessary to hire one young talent and develop him and see what happens. They can continue with their pay drivers and just add another car to their park (it is not that expensive anymore when the team is already there and etc.). It is now clear indication by Citroen that investing in youth is a good thing. I can imagine the amount of publicity they got in France when Ogier won in front of Loeb. There are plenty of young talents moving around to test. Lets say, Mikkelsen, Hänninen, Ketomaa, Tänak and a few older talents like Meeke, Wilks, Atkinson, Galli etc. I think that the one who can encourage the teams is FIA who should reintroduce third driver rule. Formerly they wanted thrid driver to be the one without podium finish in last five years. Maybe they should changes it so that the third driver should be under 35 years old (or under 30 years). And there should also be also rule that the team manager and official drivers cannot be close relatives;-)

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The third driver rule is definitely a good thing to have, I agree. it was big mistake when the third car was banned. The two best cars score and two of the drivers (or one) should be entered in all events ?

This would definitely get some guys to have a go at it with good material.

They need P.Solberg but I don't like ford team.

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Originally Posted by jbmarcus21

http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index...en_Piloten.htm

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So after a rough translating, what loriaux is saying is that basically the drivers are not confident enough in the car ?

Maybe the car is too "specialized" and doesn't allow enough for improvising? Maybe it is not responsive enough and so the guys lose it when when they try too hard?

looks like they better stop doing whatever they have been doing up until now and try something else cause the manu and drivers titles are soon gone. :confused:

Also another interesting point:
2010 WRCar: 500 000 euro
2010 S2000: 300 000 euro
2011 WRCar: 400 000 euro

Wow the private teams are saving 100 000 euro.
In two years we are back till todays situation, and still 2-3 manufacturers.

Morrie Chandler and FIA; wow, job well done.
If that is the case they could drop the whole plan for new regs in 2011, it is already a failure in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Sulland

Also another interesting point:
2010 WRCar: 500 000 euro
2010 S2000: 300 000 euro
2011 WRCar: 400 000 euro

Wow the private teams are saving 100 000 euro.
In two years we are back till todays situation, and still 2-3 manufacturers.

Morrie Chandler and FIA; wow, job well done.
If that is the case they could drop the whole plan for new regs in 2011, it is already a failure in my opinion.

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offcourse the prices goes up, cars built for rally and racing is a bit different than state substituted fish trade, but soon there will be cheaper option for privateers to start international carrer, more choises keeps prices lower.

We should compare running cost in terms of new and old WRC not the prices of cars for sale which are twisted by ongoing generation change. Also the cost of new car is not that important in season costs.

It's absolutely logical that while it's almost impossible to sell current WRC cars with no future in top level rallying their price goes down. Two years a go the prices were much higher. The situation is opposite with new cars where there is high demand from teams.

The brains are there, the car sure is on par technology wise. Ford's hot question?!
The car engineering looks top class. Ford's hot question?!
The PIPO engine is top class. Ford's hot question?!
The shocks, from REIGER, are awesome. Yes.
The tires are same for everyone. Yes.
The people running the show have experience at top level. Yes.
There is plenty of testing for the drivers. Certainly not, little!
And there is plenty of testing for the cars?. Certainly not, little!
The drivers show speed, but not consistently. Why is that ? The cars?! Ford's hot question?!

The qustion is - how is Ford gonna be competitive in 2011?

New car. New drivers, anyway partly or third driver?

What about Citroen development on C3?

Third car in teamrules is necessary. New car has to be as competitive as Fiesta S2000.

The new C3 has to be not that supreme than C4 in 2010.

Drivers - well for a swede PG is good enough. Maybe need some other driver to complete the team. Galli? Märtin? Petter?

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

The qustion is - how is Ford gonna be competitive in 2011?

New car. New drivers, anyway partly or third driver?

What about Citroen development on C3?

Third car in teamrules is necessary. New car has to be as competitive as Fiesta S2000.

The new C3 has to be not that supreme than C4 in 2010.

Drivers - well for a swede PG is good enough. Maybe need some other driver to complete the team. Galli? Märtin? Petter?

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NEWSFLASH..

The citroen will use the DS3

Also you are vey confused my friend about a lot of things...you need more sleep.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

NEWSFLASH..

The citroen will use the DS3

Also you are vey confused my friend about a lot of things...you need more sleep.

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Yes, yuo´re right. I need more sleep. DS3 is the one. Nothing else.

Confusing - well, I adopted your way of writing for once and bang and bomerang you didn´t quite understand because it was confusing... ;)

Do you understand why we have dificulties understanding you sometimes?

Ford has given up 2010, and fucuses only on developing the 2011 car I think.

Wow 2010 WRC 500 000 euro :D

No way Jose , where did you find that info :D

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Originally Posted by urabus-denoS2000

Wow 2010 WRC 500 000 euro :D

No way Jose , where did you find that info :D

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I found one. Oops, it was a WRC 05 ;)

http://www.rally24.com/search-results/?category_url=rally-cars-for-sale&subcat_num=&Make[]=24&p112_from=&p112_to=&p126=&p127=&p128=100&p130= &p131=&sCountry=&ord=0&trm=

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Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze

]We should compare running cost in terms of new and old WRC not the prices of cars for sale which are twisted by ongoing generation change. Also the cost of new car is not that important in season costs.

It's absolutely logical that while it's almost impossible to sell current WRC cars with no future in top level rallying their price goes down. Two years a go the prices were much higher. The situation is opposite with new cars where there is high demand from teams.

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Obviously it is not in M-Sport best interest for prices of rally car to go way down. After all, they want to sell don't they ?

It is also not good for them if cars become cheap and simple to run.

Today customers are forced to return parts to M-Sport for service because of the part's complexity. There are no alternatives. Therefore they have monopoly and prices are high.

The more high tech "electronics and hydraulics" the better.... :cool:

1. Ok for starters, Ford needs to replace MW. A former WRC veteran would be good. MW has no WRC pedigree as a racer. They shd hire KKK

2. FIA needs to introduce the 3rd car rule but shd clearly state the 3rd driver shd not be MW jr.

3. Bring back the Safari Rally. Ford always did well there!

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Originally Posted by mutanda

1. Ok for starters, Ford needs to replace MW. A former WRC veteran would be good. MW has no WRC pedigree as a racer. They shd hire KKK

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I doubt Ford could justify starting their own motorsport team again. Considering how little media coverage rallying gets, the shareholders would be more likely to tell them to stuff the lot and withdraw from WRC than to try and compete with Malcolms company.

I also wonder how much of Stobart Motorsports running costs the Wilsons contribute to and if Mathew was to go, whether the team would too. I certainly don't buy this "his 25yr plan is taking the seat away from a good driver".

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Originally Posted by TMorel

I doubt Ford could justify starting their own motorsport team again. Considering how little media coverage rallying gets, the shareholders would be more likely to tell them to stuff the lot and withdraw from WRC than to try and compete with Malcolms company.

I also wonder how much of Stobart Motorsports running costs the Wilsons contribute to and if Mathew was to go, whether the team would too. I certainly don't buy this "his 25yr plan is taking the seat away from a good driver".

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Agree on shareholders part. It's much easier to "hire" a private company to do your racing in your name cause you can ditch easily if finances go sour.

I don't buy the "25 yr plan..." part either. In my opinion the boy's drive is being financed mainly by the profit from other paying drivers like HENNING, BLOCK, VILLAGRA, etc.. The Stobart logo sure looks better than a blank white car, much more credible for a future world champ.

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Originally Posted by TMorel

I certainly don't buy this "his 25yr plan is taking the seat away from a good driver".

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in the case of wilson it actually does...i doubt any serious sponsor would give that big support to such a waste. Most "personal" driver sponsors support someone for 1-2 years then if the results aren;t there they pull the plug....

in the case of stobart i think they just provide the money for the car to run through the stages as a moving advertisement and they leave the driver choice to the manager of the car provider.

i think that wilson needs to get that stobart money put some stickers into the manufacturer car and give the money to the team to develop the car and maybe use someone else for a limited program and if the potential is there then bring the stobart car back full time.

on the other hand with the introduction of kimi who follows the steps of paasonen and visits burger king more often nowadays, we have some who say that wilson is an amazing driver. so go figure.....

N.O.T.
I agree, if the sponsors are paying huge amounts then yes, it's taking the money away from someone worthy, what I question is how much they are actually paying or whether as Kaffi says, they get Mathew on the cheap as daddy is paying, rather than have a white unsponsored car
For five years only, buy Henning and get Wilson free, yes buy one get one free - and if you sign up now, we'll even throw in unlimited TV time on DAVE
in which case there isnt any extra sponsorship to have gone on someone else.

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Originally Posted by TMorel

N.O.T.
I agree, if the sponsors are paying huge amounts then yes, it's taking the money away from someone worthy, what I question is how much they are actually paying or whether as Kaffi says, they get Mathew on the cheap as daddy is paying, rather than have a white unsponsored car
For five years only, buy Henning and get Wilson free, yes buy one get one free - and if you sign up now, we'll even throw in unlimited TV time on DAVE
in which case there isnt any extra sponsorship to have gone on someone else.

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What you are saying is, in my opinion, exactly what is going on. If all the logistics and manpower are in place for two cars, with full paying customers like Henning, then junior's car is actually quite cheap to run. Its a bit like having a tick getting a free ride on a bull's ass. :D

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Originally Posted by 6789

+1

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PRODRIVE has done the same, look where it lead them !! :(

When Aava was driving with Stobbart he was offered that Stobbart pays 50% and his private sponsors pay another 50% of the costs. That means he could have done two full seasons with the same amount of money he payed for Citroen for 10 rallies. So, seems that Stobbart is interested to keep his logo in WRC.

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Originally Posted by Sulland

Also another interesting point:
2010 WRCar: 500 000 euro
2010 S2000: 300 000 euro
2011 WRCar: 400 000 euro

Wow the private teams are saving 100 000 euro.
In two years we are back till todays situation, and still 2-3 manufacturers.

Morrie Chandler and FIA; wow, job well done.
If that is the case they could drop the whole plan for new regs in 2011, it is already a failure in my opinion.

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Agreed, cost of cars is just too much!

WT

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Originally Posted by bluuford

When Aava was driving with Stobbart he was offered that Stobbart pays 50% and his private sponsors pay another 50% of the costs. That means he could have done two full seasons with the same amount of money he payed for Citroen for 10 rallies. So, seems that Stobbart is interested to keep his logo in WRC.

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Really ? i don't wish to doubt but are you sure it wasn't a sponsor share proposal ? That is not the same. I ask because it is strange that he did not continue with Ford.
In sponsor share you pay for all your cost but the team mate's sponsor can go on your car for free and vice versa. :confused:

It was clearly stated that Stobbart pays 50% of the costs and he pays other 50%
He didn't continued, because his sponsors were nearly broke because of economic downturn at the beginning of last year. He just said that it is a shame that he did not know that he could have spent two years in Ford with the same amount of money. He would have taken it already year before (before he wasted all that money to Citroen).

Now it seems that he is not planning any starts at least in 2010. I took a few beers with one of his relatives who told that. Currently he is 100% focused on his every day (I think he works for Addinol) job and Rally Estonia project.

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Originally Posted by urabus-denoS2000

Wow 2010 WRC 500 000 euro :D

No way Jose , where did you find that info :D

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M-Sport is currently selling Kuipers Focus WRC 2006 which is basically the same as the current car. price is only 290 000 EUR
http://www.m-sport.co.uk/cars4sale/103

It's still 4 years old specification. But yes, it's good price but in most of countries it's useless car...

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Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze

]It's still 4 years old specification. But yes, it's good price but in most of countries it's useless car...

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I would say in most countries a very useful car in good hands. ;)

Actually not. In most of countries WRC are not allowed in national championships.

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Originally Posted by bluuford

It was clearly stated that Stobbart pays 50% of the costs and he pays other 50%
He didn't continued, because his sponsors were nearly broke because of economic downturn at the beginning of last year. He just said that it is a shame that he did not know that he could have spent two years in Ford with the same amount of money. He would have taken it already year before (before he wasted all that money to Citroen).

Now it seems that he is not planning any starts at least in 2010. I took a few beers with one of his relatives who told that. Currently he is 100% focused on his every day (I think he works for Addinol) job and Rally Estonia project.

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ok thanks for that. :)

How does it look when the two LEAD ford drivers will drive the FIESTA in OCTOBER, 3 months before first rally of 2011 season ?

Seems to me like LORIAUX is so sure of himself that he can wait until OCTOBER to hear what his top drivers have to say. LOEB and SORDO are driving their DS3 since months....

This will show in the results !

I believe the problem at M-Sport is mainly EGO and if they don't start questionning their methods IMMEDIATELY they can kiss 2011 good bye.

No problem for them 'cos they will grab money for sure with selling the seats and the cars.. They don't expect they will be champs with current line-up.. I didn't hear that Citroen sells their C4's except to Petter and one in Italy..