Cosworth (finally) dispatch first engines to their teams

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12th January 2010, 10:02
Giuseppe F1

Cosworth (finally) dispatch first engines to their teams

Leaving it a bit late arent they! :)

http://www.pitpass.com/images/headli...engines400.jpg

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/6464.html

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=39758
13th January 2010, 02:20
Saint Devote

I am just excited that Cosworth are back in f1!!!
13th January 2010, 03:36
leopard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giuseppe F1

Leaving it a bit late arent they! :)
http://www.pitpass.com/images/headli...engines400.jpg

delicious... :)
13th January 2010, 05:59
call_me_andrew

How cute.

I like the green stands.
13th January 2010, 07:16
leopard

it looks to me resembles more tart cake or ice cream... I like purple of the pan...
14th January 2010, 17:28
gloomyDAY

Isn't it illegal to pack explosives on a plane?
14th January 2010, 17:38
driveace

Cosworth

Lets hope they are reliable,and quick too.
14th January 2010, 17:39
52Paddy

Fingers crossed that they've come up with a competitive engine :)
14th January 2010, 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giuseppe F1

Leaving it a bit late arent they! :)

No.

Formula One engineers are bright enough to be able to work from drawings.
14th January 2010, 18:15
52Paddy

Would be nice if Cosworth hit it big again like they did with the DFV in the late 60s. But that would take a certain Duck, one which isn't around any more alas. Wonder if anyone could step into his capable shoes though...exciting prospect.
14th January 2010, 20:15
RS

When Cosworth were last in with Williams they started very competitive but tailed off in the development race. Now development is not allowed, so I guess they will be ok.
14th January 2010, 20:48
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

I very much doubt we'll have a recurrence of Brawn engineers hacking large chunks out of the chassis to suit an unexpected powerplant.

Never happened, unless you think that adjusting a couple millimeters is large.
BTW according to Horner (that's what he said a few months ago) nowadays engines are so similar that you can wait until November/December to decide which engine you will use in a new F1 car.
14th January 2010, 21:25
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Never happened, unless you think that adjusting a couple millimeters is large.
BTW according to Horner (that's what he said a few months ago) nowadays engines are so similar that you can wait until November/December to decide which engine you will use in a new F1 car.

A couple of millimetres here and there in the minutiae (sic) of precision F1 design is not insignificant!
14th January 2010, 21:41
Robinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Never happened, unless you think that adjusting a couple millimeters is large.
BTW according to Horner (that's what he said a few months ago) nowadays engines are so similar that you can wait until November/December to decide which engine you will use in a new F1 car.

Quote:

"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewben..._of_brawn.html

6 inches, couple of millimetres, nothing much in that. i expect "6 inches" is probably a slight exaggeration, but 150mm nonetheless, so even if it was only 100mm its still pretty significant, but hey..
14th January 2010, 21:57
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinho

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewben..._of_brawn.html

6 inches, couple of millimetres, nothing much in that. i expect "6 inches" is probably a slight exaggeration, but 150mm nonetheless, so even if it was only 100mm its still pretty significant, but hey..

'Says my source' huh?!

Thank you but I'll take Horner's word over someone who would want us to believe that you can cut out 6 inches of a carbon fiber molded tub and you can make a F1 chassis like that. Honestly it's laughable what they are trying to make us believe.

Not to mention that a 150 mm difference in size between two 2.4 liter engines is too far fetched.
15th January 2010, 07:11
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

'Says my source' huh?!

Thank you but I'll take Horner's word over someone who would want us to believe that you can cut out 6 inches of a carbon fiber molded tub and you can make a F1 chassis like that. Honestly it's laughable what they are trying to make us believe.

Not to mention that a 150 mm difference in size between two 2.4 liter engines is too far fetched.

Of course Horner would say that when their engine situation wasn't sorted. We've heard those types of statements before.
15th January 2010, 09:53
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

and an aerodynamicist

Oh shucks, another one that makes the wind go swish.... Do you suppose the stuff he worked on was complicated too?

My a**e must be fecking clever in the aero dept.... :p
15th January 2010, 11:00
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

lol.. This guy comes into my local, and I usually try and get info out of him, although usually without success. I do know he's not an "air swish" guy who has secret tifosi tendencies though.. :p

Nothing worse than an 'Air Swisher'
15th January 2010, 16:50
Powered by Cosworth

Nice to see they've finally got off their arse, re-hired staff and got everything going again. :)
15th January 2010, 17:34
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

The source in my case being Ross Brawn, and an aerodynamicist who works for the team. This is well documented and I'm quite surprised a man as passionate about F1 as you, did not know this.

If you take anything for granted, no matter from what blog it's your business.
Some common sense with even a little engineering knowledge is enough to realize that you can't cut out 15cms of a chassis that was 99% through it's development and still get an extremely well balanced and rigid chassis after that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

I wouldn't expect Horner to have extensive knowledge about the ease of installing an engine into a car with which he has absolutely no technical knowledge.

Sure you wouldn't, you only believe those who suit your POV even if what they claim is practically impossible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Adrian Newey may well have designed the Red Bull to accomodate a number of engine suppliers as they were unsure who was actually going to be their supplier until very late on.

Maybe Newey also discovered how to stretch time, like to make it 2 or 3 times longer so that he can design 2 or 3 different cars. :\

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Honda on the other hand were pushing the boundaries by developing their own engine which was significantly different to the other manufacturers.

Significantly different? With such tight technical rules?! You know nothing about F1 let alone engineering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Would it be at all possible ioan to supply some proof (link maybe) that Christian Horner actually made the claim that F1 engines are vastly similar in specification? I've supplied links for my part you see, so would appreciate the same if you can. Otherwise I'll be blinded by the overwhelming amount of evidence to support my claim... :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewben..._of_brawn.html

What a strange coincidence, he repeated it today:

Quote:

The engines these days, through regulations, are so similar in terms of their packaging that it hasn't compromised us at all.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80906

I tried to find the older quote too but according to Autosport:

Quote:

Archive news over 30 days old is only available to AUTOSPORT PLUS subscribers.
Login or subscribe now to read more.
15th January 2010, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

Oh shucks, another one that makes the wind go swish.... Do you suppose the stuff he worked on was complicated too?

My a**e must be fecking clever in the aero dept.... :p

Certainly need more intelligence than a sandwich maker, anyway.

Although judging by some of the posts around here, certain members of the forum, and the word 'member' is most apt, would struggle to do that.
15th January 2010, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Adrian Newey may well have designed the Red Bull to accomodate a number of engine suppliers as they were unsure who was actually going to be their supplier until very late on.

Which just goes to show that compromises in engineering are not such a big deal and that, specifically, engines and gearboxes are not intrinsic to the basic chassis/aero package performance.
15th January 2010, 19:08
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Thanks for supplying the article by the way, it further strengthens my belief that you don't know what you are talking about and don't bother to read before you respond.

I suppose you don't understand plain English, or you can't read properly. What part of the engines being very very similar didn't you understand?
At least now I know why you work with sandwiches.
15th January 2010, 20:07
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Lets quit with the insults shall we?

You started it and now you're crying? Typical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

You don't know anything about me apart from my job title.

I know all that I need to know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Remember I also know what you do for a living and you don't find me mocking you circumstances do you?

And what is to be mocked about someone who is way above where you will ever get?
15th January 2010, 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

The part where the gearbox had a different position, and mounting points were arranged in an unorthodox fashion compared to rival manufacturers.

Those mounting points would not be attached to the tub, though.

Assuming that the Brawn car used the systems whereby the suspension mounts onto the gearbox (common practice now and not something I had read anywhere that was different with Brawn), whilst the suspension geometry would be affected, the amount of "cutting away" would only be effecting the carbon mounting points at the back of the car, nothing at all to do with the tub.

It is testament to the engineering prowess of Brawn GP that the redesign of those mountings did not adversely affect the suspension performance or that of the diffuser, but the idea that the tub itself would be involved is a false premise.

Furthermore, the initial installation of the Mercedes engine and gearbox may have involved physical cutting of carbon fibre in this area, but very soon afterwards a new carbon mounting would have been produced and that which was removed would not have been for any other purpose originally than mounting points.

If you claim the gearbox mounting was the area where changes were made, the work that Ross refers to undoubtedly refers to the suspension mountings and the diffuser, not the tub.
16th January 2010, 00:05
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

I have not insulted you once in this thread. I said you didn't know what you were talking about, I did not try you bring you down by suggesting derogatory statements regarding your profession.

I'm going to ignore this comment and leave it highlighted to demonstrate its very definition, pathetic and infantile... Grow up!

So you didn't insult me in this thread?! :laugh:

Pommes frites with mayonnaise please!
16th January 2010, 00:30
foxystoat

Lets leave the personal insults out of it shall we, it's a F1 forum not who has the best job & biggest ego forum !
16th January 2010, 01:29
Hondo

Break break, I've got a legitimate question here. Does Cosworth also provide the tuned exhaust for the engine or are the teams given the necessary flow specifications and left to design their own exhaust?
16th January 2010, 09:19
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

So you didn't insult me in this thread?! :laugh:

Pommes frites with mayonnaise please!

Too much chili or something? You're revving way too high once again. :rolleyes:
16th January 2010, 09:36
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

I suppose you don't understand plain English, or you can't read properly. What part of the engines being very very similar didn't you understand?
At least now I know why you work with sandwiches.

You are forgetting that the Brawn was originally desined around an engine/kers package from a different manufacturer. If crank heights are diferent, there will be considerable compromises to be made. Did the Brawn use the Merc powertrain, or their own gearbox? A gearbox designed for an engine with a different crank...
Well you get the point.

Butter or Low fat spread.

Baguette, roll or bread?

Doorstep or sub........
16th January 2010, 09:43
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by foxystoat

who has the best job & biggest ego forum !

That's easy, I have THE best job. I'm a left hand glove sorter in a right hand glove factory.

I earn minimum wage. Next year, I move on to tea boy, and that's when the big bucks start rolling in.....

I've been asked to make sandwiches for a member, any tips????
16th January 2010, 11:40
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGWilko

You are forgetting that the Brawn was originally desined around an engine/kers package from a different manufacturer. If crank heights are diferent, there will be considerable compromises to be made. Did the Brawn use the Merc powertrain, or their own gearbox? A gearbox designed for an engine with a different crank...
Well you get the point.

I am not disputing that they had some changes to make, however it is ridiculous to claim that they've cut out 15cms of their chassis and were still the fastest car out there.

I have provided the link to Horner saying that it is practically no difference between the F1 engines nowadays, that you can wait until December to decide which engine you throw in the back of the chassis.

The Honda engine can't be 15 cms shorter than the Mercedes, not for a strictly regulated 8V 2.4 liter engine, and as you pointed out they used their own gearbox so the difference can't come from the use of different gearbox.

Given the rules, the nature of the science and the competition all engines will try to have the lowest possible COG which means that crankheights will not differ more than a few millimeters.

I agree with Tamburello that they had to make some modifications to the rear suspension and it's attachment points in order to re-balance the car, but then again nothing like 15cms.

Believing that Brawn GP did cut out 15cms of their chassis in order to accommodate a new engine and still had a superior car is something that I can explain in only one way...
16th January 2010, 11:47
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Lets all agree to disagree on that one..It makes no difference really and doesn't take any credit away from Brawn.. :)

Right. They still did have a great chassis and there is no use to try to create urban legends about them.
16th January 2010, 12:18
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Let it go, stop trying to wind it even more.

He started it.....
16th January 2010, 16:02
gloomyDAY

I hope that Cosworth's engines don't detonate on the first GP.
Good reliability should be part of the package, but we'll have to wait and see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

And what is to be mocked about someone who is way above where you will ever get?

HAHA! God, that's pathetic.

Classic case of an internet e-thug.