Where have train drivers gone?

A couple years ago i wrote in a Finnish magazine, how you should do flick before the corners. The respond was quite hostial.Specially from Marcus Gronholm.This was surprising to me because he was driving just like I am teaching. I still not quite understand him.Was he lying so stopping other drivers not to copy or has he not analysed his driving!
Anyhow now watching Rally Norway almost every body were flicking except Kopecky,Galli(surprise here)and Stohl. Certainly Galli used to do a lot of flicks(remember videos from early days).Maybe this explains his current lack of results? I offered him free lessons but he declined some time ago.

I haven' seen much footage from Norway but I like to know that flicks are back from a spectator point of view it is much more pleasant to the eye, and if results are also better I can only welcome the scandinavian flick back.

It would be interesting to know why those not using it, don't want to.

Interesting about Grönholm, since I especially watched him do a big flick before a lefthander. I remebered the discussions here on this forum, that is why I registrated his flick. (the end of SS4 in sweden, I also saw an onboard).

:)

Yes, I noticed that people were flicking in Norway and thought it was interesting. I seem to remember someone (I forget who) going too far on the first flick and sliding into the outside snowbank on one hairpin.

uh, could it be no active diffs and the conditions? or maybe the way the new cars have been designed?

Some of has to do with passive diffs as FrankenSchwinn says. The car is not as agile as it was with active ones. Also conditions, specially woth lots of snow on the road like in Norway has an effect, because puttig car sideways helps reduce speed under braking as well as helps turning in (what I think is Pentti's point in flick). But I don't think we see as much flicking when they get back on gravel. And certainly the good old days of huge flicks is long gone

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Originally Posted by COD

Some of has to do with passive diffs as FrankenSchwinn says. The car is not as agile as it was with active ones. Also conditions, specially woth lots of snow on the road like in Norway has an effect, because puttig car sideways helps reduce speed under braking as well as helps turning in (what I think is Pentti's point in flick). But I don't think we see as much flicking when they get back on gravel. And certainly the good old days of huge flicks is long gone

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Huge flicks have gone because these silly motorbike gearboxes! You can,t skip gears any more in down shifts.

What is the tecnique to do a flick in a 4WD (old gearbox)?

I still didn't understand what's a flick :confused: Is, when braking, putting the back of the car on the oposite side of the corner? A kind of pendulous aproach?

It's a pendlum effect. Say you are going into a left hander, you would first 'flick' the car to the right, then quickly again to the left, the back then swings around like a pendulum and it enables you to take the corner faster than you would otherwise have done.

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Originally Posted by Mark

It's a pendlum effect. Say you are going into a left hander, you would first 'flick' the car to the right, then quickly again to the left, the back then swings around like a pendulum and it enables you to take the corner faster than you would otherwise have done.

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Understood. Thanks, That what i was thinking.

For me, the high number of flicks in Norway have a simple explanation: Snow and the slipery stages.

Also, the flicking helps braking to be more efficient.

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Originally Posted by JAM

I still didn't understand what's a flick :confused: Is, when braking, putting the back of the car on the oposite side of the corner? A kind of pendulous aproach?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick wikipedia will school you.... it also has 'the' pentti video.

That video is very good.

I'm actually doing a "scandinavian flick" when I go snowboarding, especially when I'm riding to the left with my face heading downhill, then I start the right turn with a small flick the opposite direction first. Not much, just a small one, I feel it's easier to turn then. Not done by the snowboard pros, but it works a little like the flicks in a rally car.

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Originally Posted by FrankenSchwinn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick wikipedia will school you.... it also has 'the' pentti video.

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I have newer met any body,who has been that bad in gear change as Tiff.

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Originally Posted by pentti

I have newer met any body,who has been that bad in gear change as Tiff.

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I've watched that video several times and I heard a couple crunches but it seems to be masked by the sound of engine---he was really that bad, huh?

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Originally Posted by Erki

Also, the flicking helps braking to be more efficient.

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don't think so

when you do the flick, the wheels are sliding. And we know that when a wheel slides it has a little bit less grip than if it does not slide.

it just helps to enter better the bend.
And it's more what you gain with the handling, that what you lose when braking, so thats why they use it

Just my thought

you put a car sideways and you will stop quicker than under brakes especially in snow as it builds up a pile infront of the wheels..........

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Originally Posted by Jonte

What is the tecnique to do a flick in a 4WD (old gearbox)?

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Basic technique is the same with H-pattern box and these bike boxes,which they use in factory teams in wrc.The big difference is that in these secuental(bike,semi auto,what ever you want to call them) you can't skip gears.So while doing flick you also have to change gears down while braking and steering.This takes a lot of brain power away(this is one of biggest reasons why drivers stall engine all time,small flywheel does not help either)because you have to calculate which gear I am now. But perhaps the biggest diffence is that if you do agressive flick then where is danger,spinning 4wd car.To stop spinning you have to put full throttle on because then front wheels pull yout from spinning.But if this point you are canging gear down as you have to do in these laptop engineers's boxes.you do not have power available. In h-pattern it's dead easy.In typical rally you have to change from top gear to second 3 times a km. So in H-pattern you enter the corner with top gear concentrating lines,surface,brakes,steering and looking if any good looking girls around and then in the last moment change down straight to secong gear.Easy. What ever you win in up change(it's not much) you loose much more entering corners. Do I make any sense here?

I'm no expert on rallying, but it seems to me that Gronholm has a more aggressive and less precise driving style compared to Loeb; entering corners at high speed and going sideways through the corner as much as possible.

Gronholm's style seems to work well on gravel and snow but not so much on tarmac, while Loeb's surgical driving is almost perfect for tarmac and also works well on gravel and snow.

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Originally Posted by imull

you put a car sideways and you will stop quicker than under brakes especially in snow as it builds up a pile infront of the wheels..........

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You should know imull..............

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Originally Posted by pentti

So in H-pattern you enter the corner with top gear concentrating lines,surface,brakes,steering and looking if any good looking girls around and then in the last moment change down straight to secong gear.Easy. What ever you win in up change(it's not much) you loose much more entering corners. Do I make any sense here?

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hehe, i do this on first dates to see what their reaction is when i point the car the other direction of the corner and suddenly go into the turn and from 4/5th (depending on the turn) to 2nd...... well, there is no sliding around with my car but these bilstein i've got on my mk3 golf definitely improved my grip.... and the number of first dates, as well as the number of friends who do not want to ride in my car anymore! anyway, makes perfect sense to me!

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Originally Posted by Fischer

I'm no expert on rallying, but it seems to me that Gronholm has a more aggressive and less precise driving style compared to Loeb

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i have noticed a bit of a difference between the 2002 goldengronholm season where he was so f'n precise and to the millimeter. i mean, he is still really precise but it seems that there is something different. maybe he needs more agressive driving, or due to a slightly heavier and longer car.... maybe someone can pull out their videotapes from 02 and compare them to 06/07??

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Originally Posted by pentti

So in H-pattern you enter the corner with top gear concentrating lines,surface,brakes,steering and looking if any good looking girls around and then in the last moment change down straight to secong gear.Easy. What ever you win in up change(it's not much) you loose much more entering corners. Do I make any sense here?

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hehe, i do this (not the looking for other girls) on first dates to see what their reaction is when i point the car the other direction of the corner and suddenly go into the turn and from 4/5th (depending on the turn) to 2nd...... well, there is no sliding around with my car but these bilstein i've got on my mk3 golf definitely improved my grip.... and the number of first dates, as well as the number of friends who do not want to ride in my car anymore! anyway, makes perfect sense to me!

In Sweden's PWRC review, Andreas Aigner said that GpN cars have standard gearboxes, is it true? I haven't seen the footwork of GpN drivers but do they use clutch when downshifting?

The Imprezas use VO dog boxes if that's any help.

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Originally Posted by pentti

Basic technique is the same with H-pattern box and these bike boxes,which they use in factory teams in wrc.The big difference is that in these secuental(bike,semi auto,what ever you want to call them) you can't skip gears.So while doing flick you also have to change gears down while braking and steering.

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So in a wrc car i can't approach a corner in let's say top gear, brake to a proper speed and just before accelerating click the paddle two-three times in a row to get the right gear for exiting the corner?

Do i have to constantly downshift during braking to keep the car from stalling?

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So in H-pattern you enter the corner with top gear concentrating lines,surface,brakes,steering and looking if any good looking girls around and then in the last moment change down straight to secong gear.

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Isn't this also because while braking it's too difficult to downshift one gear at a time in a H-pattern. :)

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Originally Posted by pentti

....... So in H-pattern you enter the corner with top gear concentrating lines,surface,brakes,steering and looking if any good looking girls around .......

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Just class Pentti!!!

WT

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Originally Posted by Erki

In Sweden's PWRC review, Andreas Aigner said that GpN cars have standard gearboxes, is it true? I haven't seen the footwork of GpN drivers but do they use clutch when downshifting?

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No, since 2004 or 2005 Grp N cars can use geaboxes that don't require clutch to gear change. They cant' use sequential gearboxes.

So, are today's WRC cars easier to drive, or not?
I'm little confused here.

For sure i with my time on Playstation i think i would do better in a wrc than a N4

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Originally Posted by jparker

So, are today's WRC cars easier to drive, or not?
I'm little confused here.

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Easier - compared to what?

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Originally Posted by imull

you put a car sideways and you will stop quicker than under brakes especially in snow as it builds up a pile infront of the wheels..........

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It doesnt do much when driving on snow, snow doesnt have the same qualities as gravel at all.. the only snow piles that will stop you will most likely get you stuck too :P

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Originally Posted by Toto

It doesnt do much when driving on snow, snow doesnt have the same qualities as gravel at all.. the only snow piles that will stop you will most likely get you stuck too :P

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Even with studded tyres?

When flicking under braking, the rear wheels are not in the tracks that the front wheels have created. Thus the resistance is bigger. Now it would be good if I could try it out too. :)

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Originally Posted by pentti

Even with studded tyres?

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Yes, anyting can get stuck in big piles of snow, even with very long studs, if thats what you mean :D

Ofcourse if you are fully sideways and much snow is forced against the tires it can help somewhat, but who brakes fully sideways by the way? :D , well usually people who have paniced and are heading for the ditch :P
For this to make best result I figure the snow should be heavy so it must be more than 0+ degrees so its mild snow and the road ofcourse not ploughed

The best winter tires would be to have them look like feeder rolls that are on forestharvesters, that I would call grip :D

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Originally Posted by Toto

Yes, anyting can get stuck in big piles of snow, even with very long studs, if thats what you mean :D

Ofcourse if you are fully sideways and much snow is forced against the tires it can help somewhat, but who brakes fully sideways by the way? :D , well usually people who have paniced and are heading for the ditch :P
For this to make best result I figure the snow should be heavy so it must be more than 0+ degrees so its mild snow and the road ofcourse not ploughed

The best winter tires would be to have them look like feeder rolls that are on forestharvesters, that I would call grip :D

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I think Pentti meant that with studded tyres you have better grip than with gravel tyres on gravel.

I remember,sometime back between fire and the wheel,discovering the 'flick'. I came fast into an 'S" corner not realizing that's what it was - no pace notes. Came into right hand bit quite fast - couldn't see whole corner set because of trees and bank - all nice and sideways. Then - Oh Sh!t - it goes left. So,desperation being the mother of invention,got hard on the brakes just for an instant,came off brakes,back on throttle judiciously and turned left- more or less all at the same time. I came shooting out of the last bit all nice and sideways thankful I didn't have to rebuild the car - again - and thinking - What the hell was that ?? Then I got this evil little grin - damn - that works great !! - and Fun fun fun. Took a while,with practice,to get it right anytime . Trouble with doing the flick amongst big fir trees is you better get it right - the alternative really sucks. It can't be done without full committment. It was a momentous experience,akin to losing your virginity.