Are Toyota's drivers underperforming?

With regards to John Howett's comments :

"We like Timo very much, he did a great job, but still we have a car that is more regularly capable of being on the podium and much closer to the top this year. We are not delivering, and there are things beyond the team and the chassis itself."

He is almost certainly talking about Jarno here too, so what what does everyone think?

It seems to me that Toyota are blaming the inconsistency of their package on their drivers. Personally I don't think the drivers are to blame. I think they have both done a good job this year in a car that is at the front one minute and the back the next, and on top of that doesn't work very well in the wet.

It's a bit of a coincidence that both drivers are either near the front or the back of the grid from one weekend to the next.

I would say so. But their development failed them too.

Instead of dropping hundreds of millions on the program but hiring good (not great) drivers, they need to hire a known ringer and see what they are capable of once and for all.

they should eliminate that unknown by signing a driver that is a known quantity then and only they could see if their engineering sucks as bad as kazuki nakajima.

well they should hire JV and rosberg but do you really think after all this time they are that smart?? Since Kubica took over BMW went backwards and so now he will go to toyota

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Originally Posted by fousto

well they should hire JV ...

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Give it up! They need a known quantity, a quick driver with current experience who they can measure themselves against. A driver who hasn't been in F1 for four years, and was dog slow for the last half of his career anyway, isn't going to tell them anything remotely useful.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Give it up! They need a known quantity, a quick driver with current experience who they can measure themselves against. A driver who hasn't been in F1 for four years, and was dog slow for the last half of his career anyway, isn't going to tell them anything remotely useful.

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wrong

luca badoer sucked donkey ass but he still managed to properly test the ferraris when testing was still allowed

alex wurz was real bad too during the 2000 s and he still was very coveted as a test driver for mclaren and williams so... jv could be useful somehow..

but still toyota wont move forward because they are trying to buy a good driver. kimi lewis alonso and massa are the best drivers and where were they at the beggining of the season? did they forget how to drive?

now the other side of the story ross brawn one of the brightest guys in f1 takes one of the worse teams and a mediocre driver and a lapdog and makes them championship winners.

toyota should looking at getting

a)ross brawn (not possible he has moved on to bigger and better things)
b)adrian newey fast but fragile cars
c)geoff willis the only fast bar was designed by him after he went honda was a dog until brawn took over.
d)bob bell one of the 3 designers to win a championship this decade.

engineers gain seconds per lap drivers gain thousands per lap.

Blaming drivers is first and foremost Howett's negotiation tactic in trying to get 'better drivers'.

Imagine this conversation:
Howett: "Hello Kimi. We would like to hire you for 2010."
Kimi: "But I want to drive only a top car. You do not have a top car."
Howett: "We do have a TOP car, just the drivers are ****. But if you sign for us, race wins and a WDC challenge will be guaranteed. Everything else is in place for top results, now we only need you. Besides this we will offer you a #1 status, something that McLaren won't do. So with Toyota being by far the best option for you, will you join us?"

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Overall... Nobody has ever claimed that Glock and Trulli are top-tier drivers, so some doubts about them are justified, but they are the best Toyota has managed to get thus far.

But also the car has obviously been quite inconsistent. I think 2009 with its radical rule changes has quite well exposed each team's weaknesses in car design - for McLaren it has been aerodynamics; for Toyota mechanical grip, cooler conditions and engine power; etc. Even Brawn GP has had its lows, so nobody has been really perfect.

Howett is an idiot ! Toyota should criticise themself for costantly building a crap car and making so many wrong-strategy and mistakes :mad:

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Originally Posted by pino

Howett is an idiot ! Toyota should criticise themself for costantly building a crap car and making so many wrong-strategy and mistakes :mad:

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Yep. Trulli and Glock are doing a damn good job as far as I'm concerned.

They've got something like 45 points between them it's not too bad.

I think its a mixture of car and driver.

Toyota easily come across as idiots. Their blows hot and cold seemingly without reason and I get the impression Toyota don't even know themselves.

And/but

They never had a hot shot driver who could out drive the car. Toyota's drivers have been inconsistant.

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Originally Posted by pino

Howett is an idiot ! Toyota should criticise themself for costantly building a crap car and making so many wrong-strategy and mistakes :mad:

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A top driver like Kimi, Massa or Hamilton could have done far more with the Toyota car than Glock and Trulli have done. Maybe even a win.
The issue here is that none of those drivers have any interest in Toyota, so probably they should stick with Trulli and Glock. They are good drivers, thats it. Not great or exceptional.

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Originally Posted by pino

Howett is an idiot ! Toyota should criticise themself for costantly building a crap car and making so many wrong-strategy and mistakes :mad:

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I don't think the car is crap, it is just inconsistent. IMO the drivers are doing a solid job but perhaps they need a change, five years with Trulli is maybe a bit too much. Maybe some other driver could rejuvenate them.

In your face Howett ! :mad: now less talking and more working...

hey...two podiums in two races,that def tells a lot about the car and the drivers.....

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Originally Posted by harsha

hey...two podiums in two races,that def tells a lot about the car and the drivers.....

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But the differences between the two drivers in different races (meaning that in some races one is nowhere and one is quite competitive) suggests that they have to take some (not all) of the responsibility regarding the inconsistency the team has showed this year, and indeed in the previous years.

Trulli and glock have done a super job this season, and probably should have done better after their early promise. Glock i think has stood out for the team, whereas we all know trulli's talent when given a decent car. I don't think the car development was quite managed well enough and that is what cost Toyota during the mid season.

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Originally Posted by stevie_gerrard

Trulli and glock have done a super job this season, and probably should have done better after their early promise. Glock i think has stood out for the team, whereas we all know trulli's talent when given a decent car. I don't think the car development was quite managed well enough and that is what cost Toyota during the mid season.

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Always a pleasure to read your posts ;) you should post more often :p :

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Originally Posted by pino

Howett is an idiot ! Toyota should criticise themself for costantly building a crap car and making so many wrong-strategy and mistakes :mad:

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Certainly one thing we agree on Pino :p

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Originally Posted by ratonmacias

engineers gain seconds per lap drivers gain thousands per lap.

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That is true nowadays.
Still I have my doubts that Glock and Trulli would have been any better than Button and Rubens in the best car out there.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I don't think the car is crap, it is just inconsistent. IMO the drivers are doing a solid job but perhaps they need a change, five years with Trulli is maybe a bit too much. Maybe some other driver could rejuvenate them.

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I agree.
Criticizing Toyota after they did stick all these years with a stone like Trulli is a bit rich from some fans.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I agree.
Criticizing Toyota after they did stick all these years with a stone like Trulli is a bit rich from some fans.

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A stone like Trulli? It is not like they had a choice of anyone better.
Kimi or Alonso would never have joined them.

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Originally Posted by pino

Howett is an idiot ! Toyota should criticise themself for costantly building a crap car and making so many wrong-strategy and mistakes :mad:

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Well, I think Trulli and Glock have been inconsistent at best. Personally, I like Glock - he is still young, and definitely fast. Out of the two drivers he is the better racer.

Trulli on the other hand is just frustrating. He can be really quick, but you have to say he is just not good enough for a top line F1 team. He can't carry speed through a race and doesn't have the balls to go for a win. Age is not on his side either, and I believe that with a better lead driver, Toyota would have won a race or two this season.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

Trulli on the other hand is just frustrating. He can be really quick, but you have to say he is just not good enough for a top line F1 team. He can't carry speed through a race and doesn't have the balls to go for a win. Age is not on his side either, and I believe that with a better lead driver, Toyota would have won a race or two this season.

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Which GP's?

Bahrain clearly was a golden opportunity lost - but how a "better lead driver" would have handled the crud strategy the Toyota's were lumbered with I don't know. The car hasn't been good enough since then, Glocks podium would have been 3rd place but for Vettel's penalty, and even Senna himself would have struggled to chase down a flying Red Bull at Suzuka.

I don't doubt a Kimi, Fred etc would have scored more points this year but a win? The car ain't there yet.

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Originally Posted by Sonic

... but how a "better lead driver" would have handled the crud strategy the Toyota's were lumbered with I don't know.

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You have to keep in mind that a strategy is the result of a thorough calculation where the main input is the drivers speed.
To make a strategy work you need a fast and consistent driver, something none of the Toyota drivers looked capable to pull off.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

Age is not on his side either, and I believe that with a better lead driver, Toyota would have won a race or two this season.

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I would also like to know, which race(s) are you keeping in mind more precisely. I can't remember any race throughout Toyota's F1 history that they should have won, but the victory wasn't reached by the incompetence of a driver.

One could make a fair point about the inconsistency and that with "top drivers" Toyota could have collected a bit more points, but that wouldn't change a general picture. And maybe Toyota would need to look into the mirror to find out, why does nobody (like currently Kimi & Kubica) want to join them. And how to make the team attractive for them.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You have to keep in mind that a strategy is the result of a thorough calculation where the main input is the drivers speed.
To make a strategy work you need a fast and consistent driver, something none of the Toyota drivers looked capable to pull off.

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Bahrain is one of Trulli's strongest circuits and I think he drove a brilliant race there. Harder tyres were regarded approximately 1 sec per lap slower than the softs at Sakhir, but Trulli was lapping less than a second a lap slower than Button on the second stint. So basically he had winning pace, but given the circumstances it was impossible to do anything more.

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Originally Posted by pino

Howett is an idiot ! Toyota should criticise themself for costantly building a crap car and making so many wrong-strategy and mistakes :mad:

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A fish rots from the head. Until Toyota installs quality leadership at the top of the team, they will fail. Any other move - drivers, technical staff, women serving at the plant - will not make a strong team without someone at the top to organize the effort.

That is what Brawn brought to a floundering Honda team. Toyota needs to hire someone of that caliber, or any other money they spend will simply be wasted (again).

ClarkFan

They need to boot Trulli and sign Bruno Spengler :s mokin:.

Until they transfer the power of decision from Tokyo to a single manager with absolute power to conduct the team - as Honda did with Dave Richards - they will fail.

Collectivism fails while individualism works - it is that straightforward, but also the Western approach. So.....

And installing Kubayashi one of the slowest and incompetent GP2 drivers as a replacement for Glock at Interlagos is not a good idea but a very Toyota one.