http://americanlemans.com/index_news.php?n=13593
must say, they are doing the best they can to survive and to keep car counts up, hopefully there will be a better road ahead
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http://americanlemans.com/index_news.php?n=13593
must say, they are doing the best they can to survive and to keep car counts up, hopefully there will be a better road ahead
The whole problem ALMS has is they are at the mercy of manufacturers and how important they view any races beyond LeMans. It is sad that Audi isn't contesting the whole series, and the Porsches came and are maybe back in privateer hands. Having Penske around was a plus.
Oh well, It is Sportscar racing and we'll enjoy it. Glad they finally gave up on GT1. That should have happened two years ago....
question: is having both Grand-Am and ALMS hurting sports car racing overall in North America? I can't tell, and from my experience ALMS has a dedicated fan base, more-so than G-A. ALMS cars are more amazing in-person, and the better GT series now, yet something has to be said for the rivalries and on-track battling going on in DP. It seems as if ALMS might have a trump card in LMPC that should foster DP-Style battles while retaining true-blue LMP1 prototypes if successfully implemented. But, what'll happen as far as combining LMP1 and LMP2? Are there still two sets of technical regulations inside of the LMP class in 2010? Will the cars be 'equalized'?
I think this is a sensible move by ALMS. I'm a big fan of sportscar racing but sadly the ALMS this year has just not interested me at all - 2 cars don't make a class to me.
I tend to have the same question as Shifter. Personally, I've found this year G-A has better racing, given the 'spec' nature and having just 2 classes. These cars look awesome on the Daytona roval, and personally I think they'd do well running as a support to NASCAR but on the road courses and rovals.
ALMS has possibly got better cars - I'm not completely fond of spec series in any form of racing, plus I always have the feeling that its taken a bit more seriously by Sports car drivers and fans.
Another question - what are the technical differences between the GT class that runs in G-A, and the GT3 that will run in ALMS? I'm glad GT1 has gone - but overall I still think GT classes need a serious re-vamp world wide, to maintain alignment (to encourage more participation by manufacturers, and more entries in series) and I don't have a clue what that answer is!
ACO will run FIA spec GT regsQuote:
Originally Posted by Oli_M
Finally! How many years have they been talking about arriving at a common formula for GT?Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Oh yeah, and what's this I've heard about a World Championship? Is this going to be a based on selected FIA, ALMS and LMS races?
What is your definition of 'spec'? I thought that there were several chasis manufacturers and several engine suppliers in Grand Am. Am I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oli_M
Just curious, not combative? ;)
I do not understand why people need more manu in GT.
in GT2 there is Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Chevrolet, Dodge, Ford, Spyker, Panoz, and now Jaguar. thats a pretty damn good list
if anything we need teams to produce LMP's also
I just checked the Grand-Am website and there are 7 different engines and 5 different chasis currently being used in the Daytona Prototype class. Not sure how that is 'spec'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/RolexMfgPoints10.pdf
The chassis and bodywork has to be made to a strict set of templates and the cars are 'homolagated' for X years, so you have to use one of the 5 legal chassis. Yes its not a strict spec like (say) GP2 cars, but its certainly not as open as ALMS, if you can see what I mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
I enjoy watching G-A racing because the cars are so equal, often you find in other series some cars are more suited to certain tracks etc.
Having said that, I only watch G-A for the DP class, to be honest I don't pay any attention to the GT class...... Where as with the Le Mans (European) series, I do watch the Gt classes too..... weird I know....
Thanks
The funny thing is Mazda RX-8 competing with Porsche 911!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oli_M
I would pay to see Audi race 2 cars then spec grand am 30 cars side by side. That,s me and I love high tech cars and competicion therefore ALMS is perfect fit for my taste.
Grand-Am is not officially spec, but the rulebook is so airtight it creates a spec-like series, and to save time we just go ahead and call it spec. There are 2 dominant chassis, though i think it's down to better funding than the others. The biggest difference is the engines, there's two types of Porsche engines, the 6 and the V8 (Cayenne), and there are clear differences in the advantages of each.
Wedge is right, the GT class is even harder to explain...koni challenge is better.
(sorry for hijacking the thread a bit...I'll behave I promise)
Just like the IMSA they are spec. equalized because otherwise it would not be fair.(It used to be racing improved the product, but hell, it is easier to simply dummy all down to a common denominator)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
I am waiting for them to take the next step in fairness like they are starting to do in grade school ballgames; not keep score so no one is hurt.
I agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
Well, more precisely, something like 1 Audi vs 1 908 vs 1 Aston Martin (or any 2 of these!) would have me watching it.
However, that has happened at what, Le Mans, Sebring, Spa and possibly will be at PLM. Anyway, enough of the past, let's look forward to 2010 now, hopefully the new rules will encourage teams, sponsors and, most importantly, fans.
Which I believe is actually built on the same Riley and Scott GT chassis as raced under the Pontiac G6.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
not to be Ned Nit"Pickey but The Pontiacs are built byPratt and Miller the Mazda is built by RileyQuote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
Le Mans and ALMS also do equalizations through the rules. Why is it okay for them and not for Grand Am?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Prejudicial blinders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
I am not fond of what the France family did to the Daytona 24 hrs., but some IMSA fans speak of allowing the DP cars in and making them a special slow class.
Their tech. ignorance is only over whelmed by their prejudice .
The only thing keeping the DPs as slow as they are, are the silly GARRA rules; as if one would remove the GARRA spec. engine and put in a plain old non-restricted NASCAR V-8. what the DP so powered would do to the vaunted Audi or Peugot would be a very sad day for either of the euro car makers.
Bob...the Silly GARRA rules are the whole point. The wide greenhouse stops anyone from building too much downforce into the cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Takeaway the GARRA rules and you would have one of Dyson's closed body LMP cars with a stock block. I would hope it would rock along pretty good. Every race car is built to exploit and go right up to the edge of the rules. If you take a DP and let it run to LeMans Rules it wont be an DP no more. Since you want to knock the Euro's....remember they are being restricted in the amount of air the car can take in the motor. You think that NASCAR v-8 is a superior piece of technology because it can run 850hp with no air restrictor? Take the shackles off those diesels and they will run with like jack the bear.....
The ONLY-ONLY reason the diesels can win is because the gasoline engines are restricted; that is a matter of physics and chemistry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Put both on track unrestricted and the diesels would be the first losers at the end of the race.
I am not going to argue that the GARRA car design rules are not obtuse, but the IMSA/ACO rules are just as silly and restrictive as are the GARRA rules.
Go back a couple of years and read up on the GT! rule flip-flopping when Aston Martin came in and complained- as is- the Aston Martin could not keep up with the Corvettes, so they changed the restorictors and....
The new LMP2 that I heard described on the last race struck me as interesting from a political point of view. What will the running costs of one of those spec Oreca cars be vs. a DP? And AAC seems to be close to the Grand-Am GT3 (they're both using some sort of GT3 Cup car as a base, if I understand correctly). Could Panoz be making a bid to pull some teams away from France?
Any word on this World Championship, anybody? I've searched around a bit, but I haven't found anything else about this. It's something I heard mentioned during the last ALMS race. Is it just for ACO series, or a combo of FIA and ACO series? Is it for 2010, 2011 or "20-keep wishing"???Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
There is no "actual" World Championship, yet. Don't hold your breath but the ACO is seriously considering this. But they have the fix the problems with the proposed Asian-Pacific Le Mans Series.
Lord Drayson has announced along with his LMP1 debut at Petit, they will also go to Japan to support the ACO.
We are at least 2-3 years away from some sort of World Championship For Makes.
That won't stop Ratel and the FIA from adding "World" to this GT Championship however, that's slated to start next season.
My feelings on the proposed rules changes in ALMS are documented elsewhere on the web, in short I give them a thumbs up, not too many changes actually and adding one additional class is a good idea. LMPC smacks of ALMS' version of DP's but they are where they belong somewhere behind the LMP1 class or should I say LMP class (2010).
What I wanted to talk about in this thread however is the schedule. For next year and TV. According to Murphy the St Petersberg round (Round 2) is off for next year and won't be missed by many of the teams since they were limited on track time. I think unless IRL is willing to open it up a bit (This would be AGR thing since they are the promoters) and allow for more on-track time, it won't be that big a loss (I think).
We still have Long Beach :)
So the early part of the schedule will look like this -
Sebring
Long Beach GP
In place of St Pete, Murphy hears Sears Point might be back on. This seams to be a working of shared weekends with IRL. Since the IRL is racing in NoCal this weekend, it would fit, since the ALMS has the week off before Mosport.
If this is the case, then that would mean shared weekends might be back on the table.
If we could get Detroit back, that would bring the total of shared weekends back to 3. Maybe they could add Watkins Glen since the IRL runs there ahead of Mid Ohio.
I still think the ALMS should be min 12 races more ideally 14 races.
As with many of you I still can't believe there's no push for a Mexico race, but if Fernandez doesn't return (they will not get engines as sponsorship from HPD, they will have to lease the engines next year) I guess its not important anymore, then again they did talk about it way before they were in the series and when CART was running down there.
I also know there's some talk of returning to Portland.
So here's ALMS 2010 as I see it -
Sebring
Long Beach
(If Utah is dropped), open date going into Le Mans break
Lime Rock
Mid Ohio (with IRL)
Road America
Sears Point (with IRL)
Mosport
Detroit (with IRL, if it returns)
Petit Le Mans
4hrs at Laguna Seca
That would be 10 races again, with only 2 before the Le Mans break and a month off plus between Sebring and Round 2.
I think the ALMS should work hard with the IRL on shared weekends. Both series have there own signature races and to be totally honest I question the validity of Sebring as most people there are around because of Spring Break and not so much because of the race, but it looks good when you wanna quote attendance.
I think the St Pete issues can be solved by having open testing on say Thurs for the ALMS and then have qualifying on Friday and the Race on Saturday instead of Practice and Qualifying on Friday, then the race on Saturday.
I like St Pete, if I lived closer I would go. The fans turnout looks pretty good every year we've been there, I don't see why we don't return. I don't think its a money issue, just a time issue. Also let the ALMS run its traditional 2:45 mins at both St Pete and Long Beach, it doesn't make much sense. There is no Trans Am series anymore. You don't have to invite Speed GT if you REALLY don't want too and if Altantics goes away after this season, you'll have more time at Long Beach by default. You can also do without the Drift Series as well if more serious motorsports get its time pushed back.
Finally, Murphy also says that there's no more broadcast TV for the ALMS. This is a good and bad thing. Some fans haven't made the switch to HD on their Cable system or Sat systems siting cost issues, which makes plenty of sense. For me personally, I have to funnel any HD signal from Direct TV through an S-Video plug. So I don't get full benefit from Direct TV's HD programing. The only races I get to see in Pure HD are the rounds hosted on Network TV. Moving away from ABC makes no sense especially if were going to be at St Pete and Long Beach, ABC is already carrying those races, unless Versus takes those over too.
Having it on Speed means no taped delayed races, maybe. I believe one or two races were same day coverage just not live this season.
So what do you all think of the proposed changes to the schedule and TV contract?
I agree with Bob most of the time actually but he's been off the reservation awhile with his anti-ACO rants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
While NASCAR engines make 850hp, rumored 900hp@9-10K rpm, I agree with Mark that unfettered Diesel power because of turbocharging would crush small block V8's, the aren't making the 1000+lbs of torque a Audi diesel would make. In fact Audi gave up some torque production to get more high speed horsepower. The Audi with traction control would rocket out of a slow speed turn like no car you have ever seen...
DP's as was explained a few times by drivers on Midweek Motorsports are easy to drive for gentlemen drivers, but hard to get the last few tenths from by Professional Drivers and if you have watched it like I have, that's basically taking more risk in traffic, carrying more speed into turns and braking later than the bravery of a gentlemen would allow.
This is why Mika Dudo had basically no impact on the outcome of the races in which she shared with Andy Wallace, as Andy did the bulk of the driving anyway. She is just marginally faster than most of the gentlemen drivers in GARRA.
In other news -
Porsche is rumored to be dropping support of the DP and GT programs in GARRA next year. Funny how ALMS is expanding which Porsche will be allowed in GTC next year, as I said before, I can mention at least two disgruntled Porsche teams in GARRA. Porsche might go out with a bang though winning both the DP and GT titles this season.
I do see Buckler and FBL both fielding GTC cars for Gentlemen drivers and then both having maybe one or two GT2/GT cars with Porsche factory drivers.
Alex Job is the rumored Fla team that might run a GT car next season.
Intercontinental CupQuote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Selected races eg. Sebring and PLM have been touted along with selected LMS and Asian LMS races where teams will be invited for mini world championship.
Would love to see Audi and Peugeots do battle at Suzuka 1000.
forget audi and peugeot, we need a ferrari works team! (plus not forgetting the lola astons) but one can dream.....Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
You are ignoring the laws of physics and the laws that determine how greater production is extracted from a diesel verses gasoline engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie
Diesels, cannot rev. above 5,200 rpm or the laws of physics and dieseldom set in and the engines eventually go pfffft.
Fuel flow is how power is controlled in a diesel.
By putting restrictors on gasolilne engines, a de facto-rpm limiter and a absolute power delivery reducer.
A gasoline engine can only rev. as long as it can breath. By strangling the engines rpms are stricktly controlled, by controlling rpms, with already reduced hp due reduce fuel flow, gasoline engines cannot continue to produce power in the revolution range that will allow them to easliy pull away from diesels as at 2,200 rpm diesels have his a brick-wall.
The ACO knows this and it is why diesels are winning and no gasoline engine is more than a also (UNTIL the iMSA had the balls to ignore ACO rules and allow p2 Porsches changes that stopped the series from becoming in the p classes what the GT1 already were, a boring parade)
It will never happen, as Ferrari factory lives and dies for F-1.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateDanGTR
Till the day, I die I will regret not going to Road America in 2003, when Ferrari loyalists put the fear of God, in the Chebby boys.
One of those coulda, shoulda, no reason to have not to, things you never stop regretting.
unfortunatly thats true. its a shame, a real shame, ferrari, porsche, ford, jaguar, nissan etc-all names that belong in sportscar racing. i for one would love to see a world championship with all those big names, its the ultimate dream of any sportscar enthusiast. mind you, theres nothing wrong with smaller non-car-manufacturer independent constructors like pescarolo, courage, creation etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Actually I'm not ignoring it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Nobody really knows how OEM level engineered N/A powered car will run vs the Diesels. We have an idea, but that's comparing, Audi's 2nd brand new Diesel car with an constantly improved 908 that had an aero and power advantage. All to a first year AMR effort and they had pretty much had to throw out much of what they learned last year since the ACO changed the rear wings.
In 2010 they are demanding teams close in the rear bodywork.
Petit will be the first time a fully sorted Acura will be able to race vs the two dominate Diesel cars.
Gale Banks has been working hard on trying to lighten diesel engines to run at high speeds and improve fuel delivery.
Audi has built a 2nd generation PURE Racing Diesel engine, they haven't released a ton of info about the engine but I think its safe to say rev limit is around 7,000rpm, not 5k.
It likely just has iron or high steel liners in the cylinders and specialized multi-valve overhead cam heads. But outside of all the things you need for a diesel engine, I'm pretty sure its build much like a current F1 V10 engine.
Where is it a fact that diesels cannot rev above 5200 rpm?
Direct port fuel injection with High Pressure pumps solves the fueling issue. Then strength of materials determines what the limit is, and air available for combustion.
Risi Competizione isn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateDanGTR
:p
Chemistry of fuel-
Gasoline has approximately 20,000 btu/lbm of high octane gasoline. YMMV, depending on how ACO and ALMS control the mix.
DF2 has 19,673 btu/lbm.
The absolute difference is that a gallon of DF weighs about 8% more (7.08 versus 6.5 lbs/gall) than gasoline, so a 'tank' of a certain volume has mre stored energy. Hence the recent restrictions of tank size, etc for DF2 burners.
My point: diesel isn't faster because of chemistry, but it does have the capability to go further for each gallon burned. That alone is a huge advantage, and why the diesels have a few more restrictions in the attempt to set parity on-track.
That's correct, I don't know if Bob has been following modern Turbo-Diesel technology. Audi and "The Lion" have built this first modern PURE racing diesel engines that use strong yet high tech and highly expensive parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTTruder
This is the reason why others specialty engine builders have NO Racing Turbo-Diesel Engines even if they enjoyed an advantage in the rules. Both John Judd and AEM have said that they do not have the resources of the OEM.
This is why AEM does not have Direct Injection when Audi sported that on the R8 years earlier. Judd does not have to money to develop a Direct Injection system and Acura felt they'll keep that for when they actually need it. A 5-10% jump in power and 20-25% in fuel economy is nothing to laugh at and combined with the larger restrictor given to N/A cars by the ACO for 2010, its very possible N/A cars by AMR and Acura can in FACT be on complete pace with the Turbo-Diesels.
You will see a 908 next year with a electric motor. I promise you without even knowing, unlike Corsa and Zytex the electric motor will power the car down pit lane. From pit in to pit out, the diesel motor will be off and since they have the resources to develop the ECU software needed for supreme control via throttle input.
A Hybrid car can work, but only the OEM's have the resources to develop it from start to finish and not a middling project in progress like the Corsa effort.
When I found out Corsa was running a Group 92 Mercedes Benz street car battery to power the electric motor, I knew this is a program lacking in funding, not desire, knowledge or effort.
This is why I feel sorry for Zytek and Corsa because I think they'll be eclipsed by a properly ran and fund Toyota effort who just like Audi has all the reasons to push Diesel, Toyota will have to make its Hybrids appeal to more than the well-healed and tree huggers. They'll be able to prove that having a electric motor in tandem with a high powered IC engine, as the Ford Fusion runs up to 47mph on just electric power alone; adds economy and performance for a modest weight gain.
This is an interesting time for Sportscar Racing, there things that can work vs Diesels. Let's not forget both Porsche and Acura have beaten Audi STRAIGHT UP (This would be 2007 and 2008). The ACO tried to slow the P2's down, all Acura did was turn up the downforce and improved the suspension on the car and Porsche countered with direct injection and aero improvements.
DJ:
When I speak of diesel I mean one that uses what is "street" diesel fuel, and no fifty-two hundred is not a magic number but a common one. (At least one commercial diesel has a fuel shut-off at fifty-five hundred.
High pressure, direct injection is NOT a new idea.
Racing (will not run on street fuel,) "diesels" are said to have theoretical limits, and just like gasoline engines, that limit exists because of the ability to get fuel and air in without a part going pffft,.(I have heard the current ones are rumored to hit the six thousand range)
These engines are using a fuel closer to a fuel in the AA/F category than diesel fuel, much less the unleaded crap racing gasoline engines are forced to use.
At the same time if a gasoline engine had no more restrictions on fuel than the diesel engines do, they could brew a oxygenated fuel that would embarrass the diesels.(but again as fuel flow governs the diesels, the ACO, who wins restrictions, would be adjusted again to make sure the gasoline engines were crippled again.)
Which then leads to transmissions and gearing which could make the diesel delivery more--efficient, but as top line trannies now are six figure items, it makes the diesel verses gasoline comparison a bigger farce withWHO WINS rules now encompassing engine design, fuel design, and transmission design. All created by the ACO, not physics or which company produces the best product.
I.e. who is allowed to apply what, to what, and how, is STRICTLY the ONLY thing that determines who wins (with the pocket book, being a major aside).
I guess it is how the GARRA rules would look if Roger Peske wrote them.
As I said, if these two engine types were to go head to head without the ACO forced slow down items, the diesels would not stand a snowballs chance in hell.
The reason racing vehicles have not used diesels up to the this point is based on physics and chemistry, now it is contrived ACO rules that let the ignorant huddled masses think other wise.
So Bob, Basically if the ACO went "Bring what you want, we don't care" you would be a fan. For a year or two It might work...then a car or two might end up in the stands. Or the parade would be boring and only the 4 or 5 factory cars would be worth watching.
Racing organizations have handicapped technology and racing since the end of the old CanAM where it may be the last series that had rules that basically allowed the freedom you want.
Bob, you have bashed GARRA and ACO for handicapping gas cars, any cars, diesel cars or anything else but the truth has always been they do this for a reason. Two actually. Cost control, and safety. Add in they don't want one team mopping the floor year after year spending millions to do it. We saw how that works in f1, and it is the greatest spectacle and yet the most boring racing. F1 gets away with it...Sportscars wont....
No major series in the U.S. has EVER SAID, without exception, "Bring what you want, we don't care" so that point is vacuous but to the rest;Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Your first point: Paranoia based on --nothing,-- but fear, for the sake of fear.
Your second point: Already exists and always has and always will without regard to the rules.
This is why close races used to be so well remembered. They were exceptions based on different teams efforts and desire to win, not a contrived farce.
---The exception, to the latter, being, before IMSA, ACO-inspired restrictor mania, many tracks had fields of forty some cars,(in one to two classes) with the big one at Daytona reaching the sixties.
Many cars creates much interest, WITHOUT regard to how many of those have a chance to win the race.( these are cars that made the race, not counting entries that did not make it.)
Even before the current IMSA, as the old one made the rules more and more restrictive, the size of fields shrank.
The current IMSA seems to be arrogant or asininely ignorant to that fact, as they have followed the same path that destroyed the original IMSA.
The CAN-AM was in fact run whatever you could come up with as long as it was safe...
Given what little they knew about active suspension, active aero, ground effects or fluid dynamics back in the Can Am's heyday, they still did pretty well with little alum chassis and big block Alum Chevy power (Chevy wasn't building Alum blocks in-house, Alcoa was)
Mark is right a modern Can Am series would be too dangerous.
18,000rpm 3.0L V8 or V10 engines with twin turbos and electric hybrid start motors they double as "Push to Pass" and Pit Lane power.
My guess with no limitations on boost - 2,000hp off the electric motor, maybe 2,200-2,300hp with the electric assist.
Active Aero and Suspension, it would be insanely fast. F1 wouldn't stand a chance, once you open the can of Whoop Ass with the throttle, only a Top Fuel Dragster might be faster...
Modern Tilke designed tracks might have a chance, but yep Mark is right at Mosport, Road Atlanta, Road America, its only a matter of time before the car would launch itself and kill not only the driver but a few fans as well.
Though it would be seriously interesting until then...