Universal Health Care Reform in the United States

A political hot potato, does anyone dare to catch the potato because I'm about to throw it.

Now, I've never had any experience of the American health care system so I don't want to make any comments on whether they will be better off with or without. But what does bug me is the propaganda that is being used by those against the reform.

It is almost like decades Cold War propaganda still has an effect on America. I saw an American women on the news saying 'I don't want my country to become like Russia.'

The Republicans throw the word "Socialism" around so much it makes you wonder if they actually know what it means. "Socialism" is a similar spook word as "communism" was before: basically anything conceived as undesirable is labeled as "socialism". You want to introduce tax reforms? That's socialism! You want to restrict the right to carry guns? That's socialism! You support affirmative action? That's...eh, I don't know what that means really, but it's socialism!


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...sm%20Joker.jpg

I assume that this propaganda is trying to say that Socialism is a Joke. But the joker really has nothing to do with socialism does he?

What is your point?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

What is your point?

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The people who are up in arms about this health bill have no real clue what they are on about and are so gullible to believe all the crap that is being thrown around by the right wing media and others

I laughed when i saw a women carrying a sign saying America Under Attack

Oh the ignorance of these people

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

The people who are up in arms about this health bill have no real clue what they are on about and are so gullible to believe all the crap that is being thrown around by the right wing media and others

I laughed when i saw a women carrying a sign saying America Under Attack

Oh the ignorance of these people

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And what are they so ignorant about?

Are they ignorant about not wanting some Government lackey making their Healthcare decisions?

Are they ignorant about a provision where Government counselors can enter a private home to check and see if you are raising your kids in a approved manner(YES it is in the House bill!)?

Are they ignorant of the fact that the largest group of the so-called un-insured are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?

Are they ignorant to the fact that it will be MANDATORY?

Are they ignorant to the fact...oh forget it. It is obvious who are the ignorant ones.

Steve, the bill is over a 1000 pages long. No one has read the damned thing, and like all the legislation Obama has tried to bring in, they wont give the general public any time to figure it out either.

Furthermore, Obama in his speech before a friendly audience in Boston asked why people were so scared of government agencies? He said the private sector will still compete, just like the Post Office competes with UPS and FEDEX. Now think of just how STUPID the man is for saying that. The US Postal Service is infamously inefficient and loses money while not delivering packages and mail as fast. So if the new reformed government healthcare system is the post office, is he saying this new Government supported healthscheme is going to be that badly run???


The rage you guys are seeing is being framed by a media very eager to portray these people as dupes. They are not, no more than the anti-war people protesting Bush were dupes. They have legitimate concerns. 50% of the American people have no faith in any government healthcare. Those polls are not lies, watch the news and then watch the spin.

The US healthcare system is a mess, and I do agree that many people may not be really grasping the holes in the system, but what the people protesting don't want is rationed healthcare and they don't want to pay for illegals to get healthcare (funny how the government is going to deny that one when you know they have been dying to screw the legal citizens with all the costs of illegal immigration).

Furthermore, the people wanting this besides the Dem's and Obama are the big pharmaceutical firms, the tort lawyers, the AARP (they would be able to sell their drug plans to the 50 million people not covered and get the money FROM the gov't.)and all those people believing government knows best how to ration out healthcare. None of these people are on anyone's top 10 list of groups of people trusted by the general public.

Americans are not stupid. They know Canadian Cancer death rates are up because we have to wait longer for access to the testing to discover the cancers. They know that most of the people not covered currently either are young and choose NOT to pay, or people who would just as soon have the government give them care. Most of the truly poor get healthcare coverage in the US now. Mass has it, and is going broke. Ditto with NY. The US Economy is Broke and now this guy wants to spend a trillion?

Even if you think some form of socialized healthcare is required, can you see how the US gov't and economy can absorb the cost of it? No...so why is there a sudden rush and the general public is being left in the dark?

You try to bully people and ignore their concerns, you create the feeling you ARE hiding something. If Obama cant figure this out, than too bad, because the rate he and that idiot Pelosi are going, the Republicans will be running the show in 4 years....

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

What is your point?

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My point is, do Americans really believe that a reform to their health care system is really going to turn the nation into a socialist one?

This made be giggle.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArti...33933006516877

“People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,”

What are they on about? Steven Hawking is British! And has said the if it wasn't for the NHS he wouldn't be alive. (The article now has been corrected as the editor realised that they couldn't tell lies and get away with it.)

So if no one has read the bill, then where are they getting all this nonsense from??

As for killing off the old.

My grandmother is in her 80s. She was diagnosed with lung cancer last year. She saw her doctor..then was sent to a specialist..(didnt have to wait by the way) and got all her treatment and medication all at no cost to her....

So much for the NHS killing off the elderly...

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Americans are not stupid. They know Canadian Cancer death rates are up because we have to wait longer for access to the testing to discover the cancers.

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Americans are stupid to make the Canadian system the best example of socialised healthcare..

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

My point is, do Americans really believe that a reform to their health care system is really going to turn the nation into a socialist one?

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I've just watched a video of a grown woman crying at one of these 'Town Hall Meetings' because she "doesn't want America to turn into Russia".. The sheer amount of ignorance, intolerance, and general misinformation flying around about this issue is incredible.

having health innsurance is of cource a very smart choice, but people shouldn't be forced to have

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

So if no one has read the bill, then where are they getting all this nonsense from??

As for killing off the old.

My grandmother is in her 80s. She was diagnosed with lung cancer last year. She saw her doctor..then was sent to a specialist..(didnt have to wait by the way) and got all her treatment and medication all at no cost to her....

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Similar situation with my mother. She had immediate and regular access to a team of doctors and oncologists, inlcuding medication, treatment, etc.

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Originally Posted by steve_spackman

So if no one has read the bill, then where are they getting all this nonsense from??

As for killing off the old.

My grandmother is in her 80s. She was diagnosed with lung cancer last year. She saw her doctor..then was sent to a specialist..(didnt have to wait by the way) and got all her treatment and medication all at no cost to her....

So much for the NHS killing off the elderly...

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Free government-provided health care for all can work, at least in small countries. We here in Finland have it and we have, for example, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. I couldn't imagine people here accepting a situation where somebody would not get treated because he/she didn't have an insurance. But the US is so huge, can they afford free health care for everybody?

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Free government-provided health care for all can work, at least in small countries. We here in Finland have it and we have, for example, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. I couldn't imagine people here accepting a situation where somebody would not get treated because he/she didn't have an insurance. But the US is so huge, can they afford free health care for everybody?

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The question is rather "can we afford not to?"

The cost of insuring just the choicest, those generally young who need generally less, and the elderly and premature babies is already twice as expensive as most of the civilized world.

The opponents repeat their cliches "I don't trust the gubbymint.....' but that implies they have faith that the for-profit corporations who hire low wage minions in some warehouse reviewing and approving or disapproving procedures, or worse, a computer program, will do a better job.

It is folly here.

Via motorsport, I have had a chance to be treated for identical injuries in Sweden, France, UK, California and Washington State.
I have just had----after 12 years of fighting---2 spine operations related to the stresses from racing from 40-30 years ago.
12 years of dead ends, can't do it, "take it easy" , "try asprin" "try physical therapy.
None of that helps crushed discs and smashed nerves.
12 years of "the Best health care in the World" according to the armchair/keyboard experts.

What was the cost of lost production for 12 years?
Near disability for 12 years?

The difference between systems is one thing, the randomness of treatment is another.

ALL the systems depend on somebody listening.

When was the last time a Corporation listened to a complaint and did something that costs them money?

It's incredible to think that judged by how much is spent by the federal government each year doesn't give everybody in the USA universal health care.

Well said janvanverpa couldnt of said it better myself

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8198084.stm

http://twitter.com/#search?q=nhs

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

But the US is so huge, can they afford free health care for everybody?

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Dont see why the countrys size should matter, there is much bigger population who would pay it aswell.

I know it's a simplistic argument but I can't help but think that if the U.S. would divert only 1% of their annual ~$1 trillion in military spending to national healthcare, that would provide $10B :mark:

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Originally Posted by Starter

You're obviously baiting the question. Few have had the opportunity to read the entire bill (1200 plus pages, when was the last time you read 'War and Peace' and then had to give a detailed report on the contents?). Though as more time goes by, more will have that opportunity and more truth will be available for people to consider. This bill was attempted to be pushed through the Congress before the summer break when few if any of the legislators had any opportunity to read it --- much less time to consider and debate the ramifications of each part of that 1200 pages. That is NOT good governance no matter what system you're working under.

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Maybe not, but neither is making spectacularly ignorant comments about the nature of state healthcare in those countries that have it, and I feel that more vitriol deserves to be directed at them. Some of the remarks I have read and heard are simply unbelievable in their crass stupidity.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Free government-provided health care for all can work, at least in small countries. We here in Finland have it and we have, for example, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. I couldn't imagine people here accepting a situation where somebody would not get treated because he/she didn't have an insurance. But the US is so huge, can they afford free health care for everybody?

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On paper, it's just like that. Seems good but reality is a bit different. Why else they call them "arvauskeskus" ? In capital area of Finland, health centers are reducing their services. The payments for doctors are so low that many native doctors choose the private factor so who work at health centers, immigrants and students. The services are not top quality, the waiting lines for doctor's appointment are getting longer and longer. So no wonder that all the filthy rich ones, like me, are choosing private services which are more expensive or if your work provides it, occupational health care.

I'm not ass-kissing the US but I don't want the foreign to get too rosy picture about what we have. It's going to be a difficult task for US goverment and even they'd succeeded, I fear it might be very vulnerable of any economical and political changes.. at least for starters.

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Originally Posted by Starter

You're obviously baiting the question. Few have had the opportunity to read the entire bill (1200 plus pages, when was the last time you read 'War and Peace' and then had to give a detailed report on the contents?). Though as more time goes by, more will have that opportunity and more truth will be available for people to consider. This bill was attempted to be pushed through the Congress before the summer break when few if any of the legislators had any opportunity to read it --- much less time to consider and debate the ramifications of each part of that 1200 pages. That is NOT good governance no matter what system you're working under.

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Then debate the bloody thing. That is why you pay legislators and politicians isn't it? Just because something is big and hard to read doesn't mean that it isn't useful and/or valuable.
Title 26, better off known as the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, is just on 16,000 pages long, but without that piece of legislation the country would be unworkable.
Most people have little to no idea how the components of their car works either, but under the logic you've just imposed, then no-one would ever drive anywhere.

What the heck are the House of Representatives and Senate for anyway?

Wow.

So much ignorance.

All these people from countries that have socialized medicine criticizing us in the US who don't want it and yet every day 1000's of people hop on planes around the world to come to the US for healthcare.

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

out of the 40 million in the US(estimate) without health insurance about 14 million are Illegals. They can go back from where they came from which in all probability has Universal healhcare.

Another 15-20 million choose not to have Health Insurance by choice. They would rather make payments on a BMW I guess.

The rest still get medical care by law. They just have to pay for it later.

So what is the problem?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

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In 2004 (the latest year that data are available for all countries), the United States ranked 29th in the world in infant mortality, tied with Poland and Slovakia.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db09.pdf
- US Dept of Health and Human Services
This is the worst in the OECD.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...edicine_09.pdf
imedical problems contributed to at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/337/jul21_1/a889
The United States ranked last across a range of measures of health care in a comparison of 19 industrialised countries, despite spending more than twice as much per person on health as any other of the countries, says a report published last week.
- British Medical Journal, 21 July 2008

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

In 2004 (the latest year that data are available for all countries), the United States ranked 29th in the world in infant mortality, tied with Poland and Slovakia.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db09.pdf
- US Dept of Health and Human Services
This is the worst in the OECD.

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So? What does that have to do with healthcare. All it means is that we have some stupid mothers.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...edicine_09.pdf
imedical problems contributed to at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies

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So? Like I said......Everybody get essential medical care by law.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/337/jul21_1/a889
The United States ranked last across a range of measures of health care in a comparison of 19 industrialised countries, despite spending more than twice as much per person on health as any other of the countries, says a report published last week.
- British Medical Journal, 21 July 2008

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The best costs money.

The USA HAS THE BEST HEALTCARE BAR NONE!

I think the real issue is the people know that unless the Gov't in Washington stops spending money like they can just print more, they know they cant afford this type of reform. Furthermore, they know countries like Canada who have nothing BUT gov't healthcare have many citizens come south for private care in the US if the lineup is getting longer than they would like.

I have lived in nothing BUT Socialized healthcare, and I wouldn't say it was bad, but too many Americans don't understand it isn't "Free". Obama isn't telling THAT side of things. There hasn't been an honest debate ANYWHERE o what this bill is about near as I can tell. I think this is just a pretext for a elite few liberals in America trying to ram through their utopia, and getting mad because people aren't buying it.

They need reform in the US, NOT wholescale socialization of the US healthcare system.

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Originally Posted by Starter

When you, and others, took your business down the road to someone else.

I can't speak for other countries, I don't live there. My experience with the US government is that it rarely does the right thing and never does it economically. Those faceless people in a warehouse somewhere? What exactly will you get with a (US) government run system? Faceless. overpaid federal employees with tenure and no accountability.

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Well I live in the real world, and in the real world there is sweet fawk all difference between one insurance company and the next, one gas station and the next and one phone company and the next or bank or chain store etc.

In the real world nearly every consumer product and service are de facto
oligopolies all watching each other like hawks for a 2 cent advantage or worried they'll loose business if they're 2 cents over.
My experience with the US and multi-national corporations is that they rarely do the right thing and never does it economically for anybody but themselves.

So aside form the once theoretical ability, in a simpler time maybe 150 years ago, to walk down the road and take your business elsewhere--and theoretically, by not spending you $1.50 for some nails or paint or molasses, register you unhappiness, there is no accountability, even the threat of no money for even huge corporations run by $25,000,000 a year (salary plus options) executives doesn't scare the big Multi-nationals.

In the real world which has evolved while you and millions like you have been repeating old storybook tales long since discredited, maybe you didn't notice but even if they (those $25m exec) can't make money, they just stick out their hands and we give them money. Over a trillion dollars all told now...


You really think they care if you take your business elsewhere?

Grow up.
Get real.
Obama's plans don't go far enough, it's like he said in a different context: You can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.

I will give one example for all you Americans who keep repeating this tired bullsh!t about Government inefficiency. And I want you to explain to me something.

Seattle Washington and Vancouver Canada only 200kms apart. Very very similar ethnic and socio economic factors, similarly both very healthy and outdoorsy, similar Metropolitan area, similar diet (except those Commie socialist Red bastids have yummy HP Sauce on the table at eating establishments, and we have watery ketchup. And they are all Sossi commies, why ever notice what color the leaf is in their flag? Explain that!), and the University of Washington Hospital---where I have received several times both good and at another time indifferent treatment---and University of British Colombia Hospital are roughly equal size, see very similar numbers of patients getting very similar treatments---which one would reasonably expect with all the similar demographics.
In 199~~whatever toward the end, UW Hospital had a billing staff of 47 or 50 something AND some slimey Director of Billing or some such poof thing "earning" over 150-160,000 p.a.

UBC Hospital had a billing Department total of 2.

So you loyal freedom™ loving Americans who ENDLESSLY SAY how inefficient the Government always is, 'splain that

Dirty filthy Commie Red Canadian Socialists being suppressed by the burden of their inefficient Stalinist Government with 2 average salaries to pay, versus
the lean and mean Super efficient, Best Health care in the World, and certainly 2 times as expensive as the next,

with around 50 salaries to pay PLUS the parasite Director making 6-7 times the average wage: How is America's business model more efficient?

Maybe "Freedom isn't Free"? fawk yeah!

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Wow.

So much ignorance.

All these people from countries that have socialized medicine criticizing us in the US who don't want it and yet every day 1000's of people hop on planes around the world to come to the US for healthcare.

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Yeah so much ignorance...

All the Americans whom go abroad for healthcare, because its cheaper and they get the same if not better treatment and care...

Its called medical tourism..check it out....

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

On paper, it's just like that. Seems good but reality is a bit different. Why else they call them "arvauskeskus" ? In capital area of Finland, health centers are reducing their services. The payments for doctors are so low that many native doctors choose the private factor so who work at health centers, immigrants and students. The services are not top quality, the waiting lines for doctor's appointment are getting longer and longer. So no wonder that all the filthy rich ones, like me, are choosing private services which are more expensive or if your work provides it, occupational health care.

I'm not ass-kissing the US but I don't want the foreign to get too rosy picture about what we have. It's going to be a difficult task for US goverment and even they'd succeeded, I fear it might be very vulnerable of any economical and political changes.. at least for starters.

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That's true up to a point, it's not perfect but the level of health care for even the poorest is still relatively high. It's all relative. I've got experience of NHS back when I was working in the UK and we certainly have it better here.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

This made be giggle.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArti...33933006516877

“People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,”

What are they on about? Steven Hawking is British! And has said the if it wasn't for the NHS he wouldn't be alive. (The article now has been corrected as the editor realised that they couldn't tell lies and get away with it.)

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It shows the level of ignorance in the entire debate when they don't even know Steven Hawking is British and lives in Britain. He works at Cambridge University!

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The USA has the best

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No offence but why do you guys always fulfill the stereotype we have of you?

The NHS in the UK is a puzzle sometimes. During the mid-90's especially it was chronically underfunded and was falling apart.

Since Labour came in 1997 funding has increased massively, however while we have seen improvements, we haven't seen the corresponding increase in the quality of car the funding improvements would suggest.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

All these people from countries that have socialized medicine criticizing us in the US who don't want it and yet every day 1000's of people hop on planes around the world to come to the US for healthcare.

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I don't see all that much criticism of healthcare in the US. What I do see criticism of are some of the absurd attitudes expressed in the US about state health services, which are, I have to tell you, wrong.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

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I am aware that you feel that anyone suggesting that the US doesn't have the best (insert anything here) on the planet is a dangerous saboteur who should be locked up at once, but it would be nice occasionally to read a post from you in which you don't feel the need to assert some form of national superiority.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I have lived in nothing BUT Socialized healthcare, and I wouldn't say it was bad, but too many Americans don't understand it isn't "Free".

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Now this is a very good point.

The US does often lead the way in pioneering and expensive experiemental surgery. But for 99.999% of cases, that's not what they need.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

That's true up to a point, it's not perfect but the level of health care for even the poorest is still relatively high. It's all relative. I've got experience of NHS back when I was working in the UK and we certainly have it better here.

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:up:

Quite appropriate that this page is being advertised by BUPA health insurance. :laugh:

The USA is spending 12% GDP on healthcare and the UK 9%. So who has the worst system here?!

Personal update: In order to keep the thyroid medicine a'coming and the dossage checked for correction I called my doctor's office last Thursday to set up an appointment, the first since no longer having medical insurance. The girl on the phone told me that without insurance, I would have to use another clinic. Same doctor, different staff and physical location. I told her that didn't sound right and asked her to have somebody higher in the food chain call me. Within 15 minutes the doctor's nurse called me back and explained that although the girl was new in the clinic, the policy was correct only for those who would require more than 90 days to pay their bill due to their bookkeeping setups being different between the two locations. I told Mary I'd be paying cash in full at the time of the visit and she informed me that would get me a 35% discount.

End result, she scheduled a doctor's appointment on Monday at 2:15 pm and said if I could swing by anytime before 5:00pm Friday to leave a blood sample, that would speed things along on Monday. I dropped off some blood on Friday, was visiting with the doctor by 2:30pm on Monday and on my way to the pharmacy to pick up my new dosage by 3:00pm.

It still works ok for me.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Wow.

So much ignorance.

All these people from countries that have socialized medicine criticizing us in the US who don't want it and yet every day 1000's of people hop on planes around the world to come to the US for healthcare.

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

out of the 40 million in the US(estimate) without health insurance about 14 million are Illegals. They can go back from where they came from which in all probability has Universal healhcare.

Another 15-20 million choose not to have Health Insurance by choice. They would rather make payments on a BMW I guess.

The rest still get medical care by law. They just have to pay for it later.

So what is the problem?

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So you have experienced health care in every single country in the world to make the statement that the USA has the best health care in the world?

The USA clearly doesn't have the best education system in the world because I don't think you know the meaning of the word "ignorance" . (Assuming you were educated in the US)