Williams first to blink

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25th May 2009, 23:59
Somebody

Williams first to blink

When Bernie has you by the balls, your heart and mind soon follow, apparently.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75626
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/...puts-in-entry/
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=38022
26th May 2009, 08:26
AJP

I'm sure there is a myriad of legal and politic reasons why Williams have signed up for next year.
26th May 2009, 08:31
555-04Q2

Bernie...money...deal...soul...hell.
26th May 2009, 08:40
F1boat

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJP

I'm sure there is a myriad of legal and politic reasons why Williams have signed up for next year.

And money... they owe Bernie, I guess.
26th May 2009, 08:52
AJP

Possibly a bit of fence sitting..

At the end of the day, Williams are a team that just want to race.
26th May 2009, 08:57
I am evil Homer

Also they're an independent team that's losing it's major backer....it has to sign up to something to convince people to invest in the team otherwise it could easily cease to exist in 12 months time.
26th May 2009, 10:10
ioan

During last winter they were paid TV money in advance and in exchange had to sign up until 2010 or 2011.
26th May 2009, 10:52
Hondo

Did they sign on stating they would use Totota engines, or Cosworths? Don't you have to declare your engine when you sign on?
26th May 2009, 11:39
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody

When Bernie has you by the balls, your heart and mind soon follow, apparently.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75626
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/...puts-in-entry/
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=38022

Bad move. Everybody knows that in these sorts of situations, in order to fight the "employer", you need to stay together, you need to have a united front. Together they are strong, alone they are weak. This is what has always been wrong with teams in F1. They do what's best for them in the short run without seeing the bigger picture.
26th May 2009, 13:20
maximilian

Williams is exactly the kind of privateer team which would eventually have disappeared if there was no cost reduction measure (they almost did this season already), and as such it never really made much sense for them to side with the manufacturers. The budget cap is exactly what suits their current business model, and depending on who actually shows up next year (and I still think that'll be everyone except Toyota and Renault, who both seem to want to quit for really "other" reasons than this dispute), Williams may well find themselves at the top of the grid. If Toyota withdraws as expected, I would imagine they take the Cosworth offering. BMW would also make sense, with their old connection. Then again, Williams BMW may prove to be quicker than BMW Sauber...

As such, I can't say I blame Williams, and I would expect more teams to follow their lead soon in the game of entry-deadline-chicken.
26th May 2009, 13:23
Sleeper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Did they sign on stating they would use Totota engines, or Cosworths? Don't you have to declare your engine when you sign on?

I think that comes post season or January the following year.
26th May 2009, 13:25
Hawkmoon

Nothing surprising about this. Williams stated their intention so submit their 2010 entry some time go. They said something along the lines F1 being the only thing they do so they had little choice but to enter.

The real test will be the manufacturers. If McLaren or BMW submit their entry then FOTA might be in trouble.
26th May 2009, 13:26
Sleeper

Quote:

Originally Posted by DexDexter

Bad move. Everybody knows that in these sorts of situations, in order to fight the "employer", you need to stay together, you need to have a united front. Together they are strong, alone they are weak. This is what has always been wrong with teams in F1. They do what's best for them in the short run without seeing the bigger picture.

You seem to think this means they've split from FOTA. Who stayed and who left was always going to be up to the indavidual teams rather than an all in or all out ideal.

My question is, have they signed up to the budget cap?
26th May 2009, 13:35
DexDexter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper

You seem to think this means they've split from FOTA. Who stayed and who left was always going to be up to the indavidual teams rather than an all in or all out ideal.

My question is, have they signed up to the budget cap?

FOTA has no power at all if the teams don't make collective decisions. By entering the 2010 championship Williams effectively accepts the current power structure of F1, where FIA can change regulations whenever they wish.
26th May 2009, 13:44
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilian

BMW would also make sense, with their old connection.

Given how they finished their collaboration I doubt BMW will ever give a penny about Williams, they know them way to well to get involved once more.
26th May 2009, 14:35
K-Pu

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilian

Williams is exactly the kind of privateer team which would eventually have disappeared if there was no cost reduction measure (they almost did this season already), and as such it never really made much sense for them to side with the manufacturers. The budget cap is exactly what suits their current business model, and depending on who actually shows up next year (and I still think that'll be everyone except Toyota and Renault, who both seem to want to quit for really "other" reasons than this dispute), Williams may well find themselves at the top of the grid. If Toyota withdraws as expected, I would imagine they take the Cosworth offering. BMW would also make sense, with their old connection. Then again, Williams BMW may prove to be quicker than BMW Sauber...

As such, I can't say I blame Williams, and I would expect more teams to follow their lead soon in the game of entry-deadline-chicken.

I agree with you. It seems that the FIA will retain its control over F1 because the teams, just when they seem to be united, they are not.

Williams is a big name in F1, and I don´t want to see them dissapearing, though we all know how this goes... Anyway, I still hope the FIA and the FOTA will reach some kind of agreement, no matter what happens with Toyota and Renault (the latter were threatening to leave F1 since... 2005?). Maybe they´ll forget about the two tier system and they set a higher cap in order to retain the other big teams, but the problem will not be solved since the power structure is as rotten as some of my friends´ mind :P, and the teams will always have something to complain about.

Anyway, given Williams´ situation right now, it seems to me that this is their only option. Maybe if Ferrari were strapped on cash they would think in a different way.
26th May 2009, 14:53
maximilian

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Given how they finished their collaboration I doubt BMW will ever give a penny about Williams, they know them way to well to get involved once more.

Yeah, I agree... I didn't think they would, either, although greed and/or necessity often make for strange bedfellows in F1 :D
26th May 2009, 15:21
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Pu

Anyway, given Williams´ situation right now, it seems to me that this is their only option. Maybe if Ferrari were strapped on cash they would think in a different way.

It's impossible for ferrari to be in the same situation because:

1. The name and the prestige is sufficient to attract valuable sponsors
2. They've never been and never will be so poorly competitive like Williams have been in the last 4 years.
26th May 2009, 15:21
nigelred5

A sign that regardless, IMHO, Toyota is gone and so are their engines. For Wiliams, $40M isn't nearly the budget cut that the manufacturers face. Why would they hold out to be honest?
26th May 2009, 15:22
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilian

Yeah, I agree... I didn't think they would, either, although greed and/or necessity often make for strange bedfellows in F1 :D

Nah, remember how Wiliams were always blaming the poor performances on the BMW engine (while the engine was best or 2nd at least all the time)?

BMW will not supply them with engines as all they will get is bad publicity from within Williams.
26th May 2009, 15:35
K-Pu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

It's impossible for ferrari to be in the same situation because:

1. The name and the prestige is sufficient to attract valuable sponsors
2. They've never been and never will be so poorly competitive like Williams have been in the last 4 years.

Williams are also "somebody" in F1, and Ferrari, who knows... maybe there will come the day when they are not competitive, F1 is a rollercoaster where you are at the top and after that you might be who knows where. Never say never, or as we say in Spain, never say "I´ll never drink this water", or "this priest is not my father".
26th May 2009, 15:39
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Pu

Williams are also "somebody" in F1, and Ferrari, who knows... maybe there will come the day when they are not competitive, F1 is a rollercoaster where you are at the top and after that you might be who knows where. Never say never, or as we say in Spain, never say "I´ll never drink this water", or "this priest is not my father".

looking at their financial position Williams might be somebody in F1 but they are nothing like being THE ONE in F1!

Ferrari have had bad years but they were always close to the top and managed to win a race every now and than, Williams has had years whey they were lucky to get points (and that because the rules were changed and points are given to top 8 and not top 6 like before).
26th May 2009, 20:27
K-Pu

That´s the problem, Ferrari is big, but it´s not the F1 itself.

Ferrari is the biggest now, but imagine what could happen if Brabham and Lotus were here in a good position too. And alongside McLaren and Williams. Suddenly the grid would be plagued with teams with a lot of history...

I´m sure nobody thought of these teams retiring when they were winning championships and getting good results. But something happened, and they vanished. No one is free from this.

I don´t want to see Ferrari dissapear (although I have no sympathy for them) because they are a big chunk of F1, but they are certainly not F1 itself nor a godlike and immortal team.
26th May 2009, 20:31
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Pu

That´s the problem, Ferrari is big, but it´s not the F1 itself.

Ferrari is the biggest now, but imagine what could happen if Brabham and Lotus were here in a good position too. And alongside McLaren and Williams. Suddenly the grid would be plagued with teams with a lot of history...

I´m sure nobody thought of these teams retiring when they were winning championships and getting good results. But something happened, and they vanished. No one is free from this.

I don´t want to see Ferrari dissapear (although I have no sympathy for them) because they are a big chunk of F1, but they are certainly not F1 itself nor a godlike and immortal team.

No matter who you put on the grid none of them has been in F1 all the time but Ferrari.
McLaren are (were before their stupid lying histories) a team with lots of weight and history and so are Williams, and even if they were around Lotus and Brabham wouldn't weigh more than these two, and would come nowhere close to Ferrari.
26th May 2009, 21:59
Sleeper

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Nah, remember how Wiliams were always blaming the poor performances on the BMW engine (while the engine was best or 2nd at least all the time)?

BMW will not supply them with engines as all they will get is bad publicity from within Williams.

I dont remember Williams ever blaming BMW, just the usual vague "win as a tema, lose as a team" thing, in fact I do remember BMW refusing to take responsibility when it was their parts that failed though.
26th May 2009, 22:32
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

It's impossible for ferrari to be in the same situation because:

1. The name and the prestige is sufficient to attract valuable sponsors
2. They've never been and never will be so poorly competitive like Williams have been in the last 4 years.

'Never been'? I think you need to brush up on your historical knowledge there.
26th May 2009, 23:21
K-Pu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

No matter who you put on the grid none of them has been in F1 all the time but Ferrari.
McLaren are (were before their stupid lying histories) a team with lots of weight and history and so are Williams, and even if they were around Lotus and Brabham wouldn't weigh more than these two, and would come nowhere close to Ferrari.

But besides the weight of Ferrari in F1, something we can discuss for ages always whirring around the undenyable importance they have, the point I´m trying to make is that no team is invincible, eternal or untouchable.

It is just that, and even Ferrari has had bad times, and has threatened to quit F1 (with more or less resolve). Now Williams are facing hard times, as Brabham did, as Lotus did and maybe as McLaren or Ferrari (who knows) could do in a hypothetical future.

It is just that, I´m not trying to make Ferrari less worthy than it is by saying they are not eternal, and IF (big IF) a team like Ferrari or McLaren were in their situation maybe they´d see things through a different looking glass.
27th May 2009, 03:05
ST205GT4

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

'Never been'? I think you need to brush up on your historical knowledge there.

Agreed. Ferrari didn't win a race for almost 4 years in the early 90s. Prost won the Spanish in 1990 and then the next win was in 1994 in Germany with Berger. Stretch it until 1995 and they won twice in 5 years. And in a twist of fate, one of the teams dominating at that time where the ones being written off now. Williams.

I don't think it will matter that Williams have signed up. The same teams (including Ferrari) will line up in 2010. Max and the teams will continue their dick waving for a while longer, but it will be sorted out in the end.
27th May 2009, 03:28
Valve Bounce

Wise Move by Williams

Hopefully, with the departure of Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, and other stronger teams like Brawn and Red Bull, maybe Franks tanks will return to their winning ways in F1 once again. :up:
27th May 2009, 09:17
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by ST205GT4

Agreed. Ferrari didn't win a race for almost 4 years in the early 90s. Prost won the Spanish in 1990 and then the next win was in 1994 in Germany with Berger. Stretch it until 1995 and they won twice in 5 years. And in a twist of fate, one of the teams dominating at that time where the ones being written off now. Williams.

Still Ferrari finished 4th or 3rd in the Constructors championship something Williams would have loved last year for example.
27th May 2009, 09:18
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Hopefully, with the departure of Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, and other stronger teams like Brawn and Red Bull, maybe Franks tanks will return to their winning ways in F1 once again. :up:

That's their only chance, winning against Force India, USF1, ISport and other F3 teams!
27th May 2009, 10:05
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

That's their only chance, winning against Force India, USF1, ISport and other F3 teams!

.................and GP2 teams :p :
27th May 2009, 10:18
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

.................and GP2 teams :p :

Yeah, maybe they get some from Formula Renault too.

Why don't they just rename it to Universal Formula while they are at it?
Or the Communist Formula?!
27th May 2009, 11:15
Knock-on

I don't see this as too much of an issue to FOTA which is in no way belittleing Williams.

In fact, I guess that Williams will have signed up with the agreement of FOTA.

Discussions would have been had with the other teams outlining why they are contracted to enter and FOTA is not about getting it's members drawn over the coals in court.

This way, they deflect a possible showdown with FOM and FIA who could have bullied Williams and created a real division.

Suddenly the wind is taken out of the FIA sails by this decision where the real bulk of FOTA is still solid until they get a resolution.
27th May 2009, 11:34
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Statements like that often come back to bite you ioan,

We'll talk about it when it happens.
27th May 2009, 11:47
Knock-on

PML :laugh:

That was a very nasty personal attack Henners :D
27th May 2009, 11:49
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

I don't see this as too much of an issue to FOTA which is in no way belittleing Williams.

In fact, I guess that Williams will have signed up with the agreement of FOTA.

Discussions would have been had with the other teams outlining why they are contracted to enter and FOTA is not about getting it's members drawn over the coals in court.

This way, they deflect a possible showdown with FOM and FIA who could have bullied Williams and created a real division.

Suddenly the wind is taken out of the FIA sails by this decision where the real bulk of FOTA is still solid until they get a resolution.

Hopefully you are right.
27th May 2009, 11:52
555-04Q2

ioan's gonna kick your ar$e :D
27th May 2009, 11:53
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

It already has bro :p

I have a great quote from you ioan:

'Did Honda F1 hire a new design team at the beginning of last season?
If they did than there is a chance for them to be faster than the others.
Otherwise it's a bit difficult to believe that a team that produced 2 very poor F1 racers in a row, and had no idea whatsoever how to improve them, will produce a car almost 1 second/lap faster than the competition.'

http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...=132071&page=2

And you said that a week before the first race.. So to take the mick out of Williams when you have made statements like that makes it worth me getting up in the morning ;) ...Maybe time will tell who knows?

I was referring to Williams who had a fast car this season yet failed to do squat, in fact they are already behind Ferrari.

Yeah you are right I didn't think BrawnGP was genuinely that fast, one can be wrong every now and then.

Do I need to point out every time you were contradicted by facts? I doubt I have enough time to put them all together! :laugh:
27th May 2009, 11:55
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Hopefully you are right.

Ferrari have a huge pull in F1 that can be used to F1's advantage or disadvantage.

I am 100% behind the stand that they and the other FOTA members have taken in forcing this issue.

McLaren have strangly become the middlemen in all of this. Of course, they cannot step too far out of line with Max's beady eye on them but this has enabled them to be a good negiotiator and sounding board between the teams and Max / Bernie.

Williams signing up is no more significant at this stage than seeing the blind in Poker.

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