you have always been heavily involved in Attendance and Ratings threads involving AOWR...
I miss your contributions
are you still interested in the BIZ of the sport?
what are your thoughts on the first three races of the year from a Biz standpoint?
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you have always been heavily involved in Attendance and Ratings threads involving AOWR...
I miss your contributions
are you still interested in the BIZ of the sport?
what are your thoughts on the first three races of the year from a Biz standpoint?
Still around, SarahFan, but have been a bit sick and offline lately. I would think low ratings for Versus would be expected throughout the year, or about the same as the ESPN/ESPN2 numbers. There's a 10-year deal in place with Versus and no one knows the "out" clauses. It LOOKS like a growth-together type deal. Versus has the bullriders and NHL and is trying to build a sports channel. The Indy cars are trying to build an audience. Length of contract indicates both are trying it for the long haul. I don't think anyone thought that it would be an automatic ratings boost of major consequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
two part question..
A. do you think they expected the lowest ratings in the history of AOWR out of the gate for the first three races?
B. both CART and Champcar went out of biz with ratings even a bit better than the .3,.5 and .15 to open the season...... how long can the IRL stay in biz with ratings that low?.... or will Tony's comments of the IRL not having ever turned a profit just continue, with the IRL limping along financially funded from the IMS coffers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
Oh, come on Ken give it a rest already. He just said he thought that everyone expected low ratings. What else do you want him to say?
And the second question just dredges up the same tired argument about whether or not Tony was serious in his remark. We covered it already, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. No one knows except King George and he isn't talking.
Been there done that. What's the point of covering the same ground again, when there can be no new answers given, unless you or anyone else can get inside King Georges head to answer part B, or the sponsors' heads to address part A.
Now, before you accuse me of not wanting to talk about the business of racing, I do. But what I don't want to do is go back over the same tired questions that couldn't be answered then and can't be answered now.
Gary
come on gary...Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
big difference between expecting a low rating and expecting the lowest rating in the history of AOWR
Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
No question about that, and that was NOT my point. My point was we have already covered it multiple times and unless we can get a sponsor or two to come here and answer the question, I don't see the point of bringing it up again. But to be perfectly honest with you, I think the sponsors ARE smart enough to know that when the decision was made to go with Versus it WOULD mean the first few races WOULD get historically low ratings. But I have said that before.
Gary
sorry gary... we are just going to have to disagree here...
IMO asking whether the IRL can survive with not just low... but historically the lowest ratings in AOWR history for the first three rounds*.... is a legitimate question to ask a poster who spent the past decade tracking CC/CART ratings and acurately predicting its demise
*Indycool can confirm we have discussed the pre-indy races TV schedule and its corrolated ratings in relation to the I500 decline in ratings the past 5 or so seasons.....por lead-in has directly resulted in a decline in ratings.... will 2009 be different and break the trend.... time will tell
and what else i find frustrating gary...
is the constant reference to the '10 year commitment'...
I work in an industry that has one of the highest failure rates in the hostory of Biz...
and signing a ten year contract to lease a building happens all the time....
and what of Versus?.... heres a new channel commited to growth.... yet it appears .3 is about a regular rating for its higher profile sports....
how in world can a station expect to grow, much less stay in Biz with that type of ratings?..... what happens to the IRL if Vs goes out of Biz?
I agree, the situation is about as good as can be expected. Not only does Versus not currently have the coverage as other channels, it probably isn't the channel that comes to mind when a casual fan wants to watch racing. Correcting both will take a lot of time to get the word around that Versus is a channel to watch for open wheel racing coverage. Grumbling about the obvious is just beating a dead horse. The sky is not falling, contrary to the bleating of some.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Now if a year from now the ratings are still at .3......................
really?Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
not like there isn't a precedent here...
IC and I have been discussing TV ratings for over 8 years now.....not like I'm just coming from left field on this...
IC correctly predicted the demise of both CC and CART with dwindling Tv ratings being a significant factor in both
This topic is definitely beating a dead horse. As a side note, Motegi last year and the year before got worse ratings than Kansas this year, and those were on ESPN2 (granted, late at night and/or tape delays). If you want to keep beating this horse's carcass go for it, but it seems like a waste of time if you ask me. Won't mean anything until IRL has established themselves on the VS network. As others have said, lets see where things are at going into Indy next season. If they're same or worse as now then there's reason to worry. AOWR and the IRL might be on its last legs, but this deal with VS could also have a big upside for the series... with time. We will see.
Warning - Dead horse beating ahead.
TV Ratings and attendance figures have always been the focal points of numerous "discussions" on this forum and others. But are they the disease or the symptom? And what do they mean? Attendance and TV ratings are down significantly for NASCAR this year. Does than mean they are headed for oblivion? Hardly. The Kansas race was up against one of the biggest NASCAR races of the year - Talladega. Just what did anyone expect? Its like scheduling against the Super Bowl.
IHMO, CC and CART were both interesting series for the fans. But the business model was a disaster, with rotating drivers, no consistency in the schedule, poor TV coverage with different networks, and no real direction for growth. The symptoms of the disease were falling interest as reflected in the ratings. But the disease killed the patient, not the opposite.
The IRL still has the Big One - Indy - but had a choice to make. Keep accepting the poor coverage on the major networks or take a gamble to move to a smaller network with room to grow where the IRL was a featured product. Sure ratings would start out dismal, but the patient should be improving over time. Stating the old course may have produced slight different numbers, but that direction didn't have an up side.
The treatment may not improve the health of the patient, but it will take a lot more time than a couple races to see the direction. Improvement isn't going to happen overnight, or maybe even this year, but if the gamble is the right one, the upside is a lot more than staying on networks that focus on NASCAR and treat the IRL as a poor stepchild.
Now, can we talk about racing?
I hope your not suggesting i dont?Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...d.php?t=132928
heres an entire thread devoted to discussing the next race..... not only with questions regarding the teams and drivers but directly soliciting more...
interesting that you haven't responded.... have you even looked?
and lets get this perfectly straight.... if your not interested in discussing the Biz side of the sport simply don't click on those threads that do.....is that really that hard?
I have directly solicited the response and opinions of a poster who for the better part of decade focus was on the biz aspect surrounding CART/CC and there demise.......schedule, Attendance and TV ratings factored heavily into discussion...
Go Sarah!
Answer to A, yes I think they did expect the ratings to be super low. Did they sit in a board meeting and say we expect to see the lowest numbers ever? No, I don't think that comment was made, but I don't doubt for a second that every executive involved said that things will get worse before they get better. Sure they are probably disappointed in the early ratings, but I don't think anybody is put off or discouraged by them. I think they are looking at the results thus far all as part of a plan. Come talk to me in three years if they are still pulling the same numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
They are only 3 races in of about 180 races worth of coverage.
Answer to B, I think the IRL can stay in biz indefinitely regardless of the seasons TV numbers provided the 500, the Brickyard 400, and the Moto GP events are profitable enough to sustain the league. It's like was mentioned in the business journal article you posted. The season is essentially a lost leader to bring customers into the store that is the 500.
Now I have a question for you Frysauce! Question numero uno, why are TV numbers continually used as the pulse to measure the viability of the series? I say "viability" not to be confused with "popularity". Huge difference that I feel many on the boards confuse. Because if TV numbers were the only thing that ever mattered the NHL sure as hell would have died off a long long time ago. I get that TV numbers are a significant factor, I get that its a significant measure of things, but just because ratings are low, or the lowest ever does not mean insolvency. Chriist if that were the case I wouldn't be watching NHL playoffs right now.
Question numero two! I don't know how to say two in spanish. You are continually pessimistic about the Versus deal. What were you expecting to see happen this year as a result of the alliance with Versus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneranger
were seeing exactly what i expected.... the lowest ratings ever
go back to your hideout and read my first posts on the subject
And do you not think they will improve?Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
What? You're only calling out Indycool?Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
I think they may improve and if they grow 2- 3 times what the average is so far, we'll be back to same level of sucky ratings we had on ESPN. Some have said they see this happening in 2 or 3 seasons. Great, 2 or 3 years to get back to where we were before. Then what? I don't see Versus delivering ratings in the 2.0 to 3.0 range. In a nut shell, I see what is now a niche sport going to a niche channel for 10 years, guaranteeing it stays a niche sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneranger
Ahhh, somebody who is finally starting to make partial sense of this little endeavor....Quote:
Originally Posted by DBell
If ratings for the regular season grow to anything halfway acceptable, say 1.5 or even a 2.0 and imagine a 3.0 best case, what do you think that will mean for the Indy 500 ratings? It means the 500 will bring in huge numbers and a 10.0 would not be unimaginable if regular season is averaging 3.0's.
I hardly think you can classify that as a niche sport. Give me a break.
So if you think they "may improve" then you are more confident that they won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBell
So why isn't the move to Versus a good thing then? And please don't use the same old weak argument that ESPN has a larger audience.
it's not only that Vs is in less homes.... its the fact that relatively no one is watching it period...Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneranger
1.5?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneranger
it wont even average 1.0 even with the 500 .... much less just the Vs races
All I know is the NHL hasn't drawn flies on US TV for YEARS and it hasn't gone away and it hasn't changed my enjoyment of the sport. Now the IRL is on the same network as the NHL and is seeing the same issues.
No one is suprised the ratings suck, VS isn't on enough TV's to get them the numbers they would eventually want.
That said, the events are drawing good crowds, there are sponsors on the sidepods that people have heard of ( something we didn't see enough of in CCWS or CART's last years ) that are paying to be there and we have to be patient.
Ken was dumping on the whole idea after the first race. Nothing will be evaluated until a year is gone and I am sure at some point people will want more TV viewers but this year is about establishing the brand, the network and reaffirming that the IRL is now one series.
We can argue for DAYS how about how stupid it is we got to this position but it wont change the fact it is what it is and we have to go forward. I keep my opinions on what happened pretty much to myself. It is counterproductive. I don't see where the IRL is going now that is wrong. IT is what it is. The economy sucks and TV markets are fragmented. Lets wait until things start to pick up around racing....
no... dont think they will.... nothing suggests they will either... certainly not a race in ChinaQuote:
Originally Posted by Loneranger
if not TV #'s then what else would you like to use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneranger
the reason is that hockey teams have local broadcasting... its not like the IRL teams are competing 40times a year locally
and the lost bleader may work for Tg and the IRL's bottomline..... but what about the teams?.....
Nobody was watching ESPN either. Agreed?Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
So doesn't it become a case about what can be done to get more people watching? Would you not agree that is what needs to be done?
What is Versus' potential reach? I have no idea, I doubt you do either, but I think we would both agree that what ever that reach is right now very few people are watching, right?
And again I'll ask......Question numero two! I don't know how to say two in spanish. You are continually pessimistic about the Versus deal. What were you expecting to see happen this year as a result of the alliance with Versus?
The teams? It comes down to the return that the sponsors are getting. Why do you think the league has worked to try and bring costs down? To make it less expensive for teams to run, requiring less dollars from sponsors. So as long as sponsors are satisfied with the return on their investment and provided those investments cover the costs to run a team then what concerns would a team have?Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
My bigger concern is not the survival of teams, teams will be around forever, it's a non issue, rich guys with lots of money will always find a way to put a car on the track. Penske can fire up the old autoclave in Poole and Ilmor can pump out however many engines they might need and at the very least they take a small block Chevy, breath on it a bit like the old hot rodders did, find a chassis to drop it into and go racing. The teams will always be there in one form or another.
What I am most concerned with is the ability to compete globally for the best talent to put behind the wheel. It's going to take more investment dollars from sponsors in order to do that and the only way to get those additional dollars, ie. charging more for space on a side pod, is to provide a better return on investment, that return is measured by greater exposure. The exposure will only come from an increased television audience. How is that going to happen? It's going to happen with a partner like Versus that is willing to help grow that audience, which in my opinion is exactly what they have been doing thus far. It's not going to happen over night, its not going to happen by race three, it certainly isn't going to happen by the end of year one. It's a long term project that will take many years to establish.
I kinda oughta know better Ken, but why do you refer to the Kansas rating as a historical low?Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
It certainly sucks, but there have been worse....in CCWS and IRL
rh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
Not solely Kansas.......the first three races combined is the worst cumalitive opening 3 rounds
Can you show us the data you made this new stat from?Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
I don't think that is a valid comparison.
jm2c
rh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
Whats not valid?
Pick any other season ... Cart. Cc or irl
add the first yjrrs racestogether and the ratings total more than 0.95
A. I don;t keep the first 3 races of a season TV ratings, but sure share them if you have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahFan
B. As I stated, in my opinion, this is not valid for many reasons in my opinion, you're reasonably smart and can probably figure out a few for yourself. Pre-framed arguments are kinda silly, IMHO, I learned how to do that on Compuserve with Mark C. 14 years ago.
C. I will exit this tar baby thing some of you seem to love and watch some racing...
ymmv
rh
You give him far to much credit Hoop!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
it's either true or it's notQuote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
are you suggesting there has been a CART, CC or IRL season that saw ratings lower for it's first three races?
are you Loneranger?
I know Ken outside of the internet world, he is a smart guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneranger
I want IndyCar to succeed, but just as many others, I am dissapointed by what I´m seeing.
I was sure the end of one of the 2 series would end the us vs them attitude in which you had to defend the low ratings, poor attendance and blunders of your series.
Here we are, only one series,can we be sad about ratings?, can we be sad about attendance?
Knowing that ratings in Vs would suck doesn´t stop many of us from being worried and sad, we want to attend races without having to fly to Europe or to Asia, we want to watch live races not airing at 2 A.M. or 7 A.M., but some of us are tired from trying to see everything with rosed color glasses, I was tired from all the positive spin during CC´s last years, I wil support IndyCar, but I will not make excuses or spin what is happening.
that sums it up....Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide
Does that mean you'll be in Indy with us?Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide
What are you disappointed in? Lay it out for me cause I only see a bunch of steps in the right direction. Problems are far from being solved as far as I am concerned, but for the first time in a really really long time I am encouraged with the direction "openwheel" racing is finally taking.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide
Are you accusing me of spinning?Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide
Can´t make it to Indy, last week(Friday) I was playing with my indoor soccer team (we play in a league here in Houston, Arsenal we call ourselves), I had a double clavicle fracture, my left hand will be immobilized fo 5 more weeks and hopefully the bones will fuse right and I will noy need surgery, typing with only one hand, staying in bed after work and weekends suck big time and my wife just informed me that I will never receive permission to be a keeper again, all I can say is thank you pain killers, one day I forgot to take the afternoon pill in time, bloody pain.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3376/...87f397ca08.jpg
(quote)What are you disappointed in? Lay it out for me cause I only see a bunch of steps in the right direction. Problems are far from being solved as far as I am concerned, but for the first time in a really really long time I am encouraged with the direction "openwheel" racing is finally taking.(quoye ends).
The actual state of OWR in the US, I am sure they are a bunch of real steps in the right direction but I have seen so many bad years that it saddens me to see the ratings, the attendance, the problems, seeing those numbers breaks my heart and makes me think it may be late to save OWR in the US, I can live with F1, I´m a huge F1 fan, I watch every race live, but I like attending races, I nees a series in tne US.
Can you see my point?, I can see those steps and at the same time be angry and complain about the actual state, even if I knew we would get those numbers this year.
(quote)Are you accusing me of spinning?(quote ends), not accusing, not saying you are being evil or trying to take over the world, but been there, done that for so many years, I am tired of trying to be super exrea ultra optimist, of trying to find the positive on everything, of making excuses.
Since this seems to be a Moddy's permission to dig into the past, what I believe you are saying Jose is OW may be too sick to survive in a form where it can attract top talent? That is what I am reading into it.
Unlike Ken/Sarah Fan, I choose not to see this TV deal as the end of the world, but I will admit I wish they had better ratings. That said, ESPN/ABC is bent on getting their NASCAR vehicles promoted and will pay only some lip service from now on to their Indy Car coverage. That sucks. The fact no other US networks want to step up outside of VS sucks.
Hell, it all sucks. That said, we cant live in the past. What has been done is done. I don't see what the IRL could have done differently in the last year. That isn't spin boys, that is just the reality. They went out and got the best deal they could. They are not surprised at the low numbers, because VS has a low household reach. As long as they draw AT the track, and the Indy 500 numbers keep advertisers on the teams as sponsors, then we can go somewhere. It is going to be a rough couple of years. NASCAR is the 800 lb gorilla of motorsport in America now, and the CART/IRL war of 1995 was the reason why this gorilla got such a lead. If OW racing as we know it dies, I wont be heartbroken, I can go do something else. I watch more NASCAR now myself, and I love my sportscar racing.
What bothers me tho is those who keep bouncing up and down on this topic WEEK AFTER WEEK as if someone was spinning this as good news. No one that I can tell is really doing that. VS is putting out a pretty good TV product that many are not watching. Maybe that is our fate, but I don't see this one as Tony's malfesence or stupidity. THAT was 14 years ago my friends.....that ship sailed.....