KERS vs Non KERS, Australia GP?

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24th March 2009, 19:17
Zico

KERS vs Non KERS, Australia GP?

Im wondering what likely scenarios you guys are expecting to see this weekend with regards to the KERS equipped machines appearing to be at a disadvantage with regards to outright laptimes, while those without it could in theory be outdragged when the lights go green.

Chaos at the 1st corner?

Do you think the extra 80bhp or so momentary acceleration boost is an overall advantage or disadvantage vs the weight penalty (braking/cornering) of KERS in racing conditions?

The great unknown.. I know, but what do you hope for and what do you expect will happen?
24th March 2009, 19:44
pettersolberg29

I was assuming that KERS would give a major boost in qualifying as a perfect lap will be much faster. However in race situations, except for the time they are using KERS, the other cars will travel much faster eg through corners.

So I'd say a KERS equipped car will land the first few places on the grid, but slip back and spread out in race situations.
24th March 2009, 19:48
ioan

First of all there is no weight penalty as all the cars have to meet the minimum weight, no matter if they use or not KERS.

The start will certainly be an interesting battle between KERS and non-Kers equipped cars!

PS: Speed through corners is very variable between teams and also drivers KERS or not KERS this depends more on the set-up of the car.
24th March 2009, 20:03
Zico

Thanks for clearing that up Ioan, I was under the wrong impression.. its more of an ideal weight distribution problem.

Apologies for not being up to date on what teams will be using Kers and who aren't can anyone confirm the teams all using?
24th March 2009, 20:09
pettersolberg29

Ferrari are the only team to confirm using it I think.

BMW, McLaren, Renault and Toyota might.

The others wont.

Think that's correct?
24th March 2009, 20:10
big_sw2000

Not sure if true, but i read somewhere that the kers will not be charged at the start. It will take a few racing laps to charge it. Warm up lap wont be enough.
But will you see kers cars, doing some pactise laps on the way to the grid.
24th March 2009, 20:26
Zico

Quote:

Originally Posted by pettersolberg29

Ferrari are the only team to confirm using it I think.

BMW, McLaren, Renault and Toyota might.

The others wont.

Think that's correct?

Thanks Petter.. and I can see what you mean now about the Kers equipped cars possibly falling away over race distance due to the less than ideal weight distribution potentially causing tyre temp probs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_sw2000

Not sure if true, but i read somewhere that the kers will not be charged at the start. It will take a few racing laps to charge it. Warm up lap wont be enough.
But will you see kers cars, doing some pactise laps on the way to the grid.

Good info.. thanks
24th March 2009, 20:34
christophulus

Ferrari, Renault and McLaren have said they'll use it. BMW's appears to be ready but no word yet.http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73818
24th March 2009, 20:58
Sonic

Does anyone think that Brawn's pace has prompted any of the teams to race KERS sooner rather than later?

It has been suggested that Brawn will not run KERS all year so Ferrari, McLaren, renault and BMW getting some extra mileage in the flyaway races may count for a lot come mid season when testing will be just a far off memory even if it doesn't pay off in the short term
24th March 2009, 21:13
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zico

.. its more of an ideal weight distribution problem.

You're right. The COG will be a few milimeters higher for cars equipped with KERS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zico

Apologies for not being up to date on what teams will be using Kers and who aren't can anyone confirm the teams all using?

Not sure.
Ferrari say they will race with KERS on both cars.
Brawn will certainly not.
The others have mixed feelings, however I think that BMW and McL will use it.
24th March 2009, 21:52
jens

This is a pure speculation at the moment of course, but considering the extra rear weight KERS generates, we could see some interesting battles by the end of races, when a KERS car, which is struggling with tyre wear, is blocking a faster non-KERS car. So more battles like we saw back at Imola in 2005. :p :

First corner could be exciting too and I think it's possible to see at least one KERS-car colliding with others. The reason for this is that the effect and influence of KERS in race conditions against 19 rival cars is still untested and how will it exactly function against in a fight for position on a straight - it's an unknown territory and someone may make a misjudgement. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that someone, who pushes the KERS button after the start, makes a slight miscalculation with the extra boost and runs wide in Turn1 (if he doesn't hit someone).
24th March 2009, 22:12
big_sw2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

This is a pure speculation at the moment of course, but considering the extra rear weight KERS generates, we could see some interesting battles by the end of races, when a KERS car, which is struggling with tyre wear, is blocking a faster non-KERS car. So more battles like we saw back at Imola in 2005. :p :

First corner could be exciting too and I think it's possible to see at least one KERS-car colliding with others. The reason for this is that the effect and influence of KERS in race conditions against 19 rival cars is still untested and how will it exactly function against in a fight for position on a straight - it's an unknown territory and someone may make a misjudgement. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that someone, who pushes the KERS button after the start, makes a slight miscalculation with the extra boost and runs wide in Turn1 (if he doesn't hit someone).

Again i might be wrong, but as i said earlier, i dont think Kers will be charged at the start. As it takes a few laps to build up charge.
24th March 2009, 22:14
big_sw2000

Renault Ferrari, and now McClaren to run Kers.
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...24100552.shtml
24th March 2009, 22:20
big_sw2000

Found this intresting. 2 types of Kers to be used. Battery Kers, and Flywheel Kers.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?T...ughes&id=43467
25th March 2009, 00:51
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

This is a pure speculation at the moment of course, but considering the extra rear weight KERS generates, we could see some interesting battles by the end of races, when a KERS car, which is struggling with tyre wear, is blocking a faster non-KERS car. So more battles like we saw back at Imola in 2005. :p :

First corner could be exciting too and I think it's possible to see at least one KERS-car colliding with others. The reason for this is that the effect and influence of KERS in race conditions against 19 rival cars is still untested and how will it exactly function against in a fight for position on a straight - it's an unknown territory and someone may make a misjudgement. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that someone, who pushes the KERS button after the start, makes a slight miscalculation with the extra boost and runs wide in Turn1 (if he doesn't hit someone).

The whole KERS used by Ferrari (motor + batteries) is rumored to weigh 25-30 kgs. The batteries can be placed towards the front end of the car and the motor doesn't weigh more than 10 kgs IMO.

The cars using KERS shouldn't so unbalanced as you think. I think the Ferrari ran pretty long stints of soft tires without any significant troubles.
25th March 2009, 00:55
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_sw2000

Again i might be wrong, but as i said earlier, i dont think Kers will be charged at the start. As it takes a few laps to build up charge.

KERS will be used only 6.6 seconds per lap, there is no minimum energy level prescribed for it's use.

A few corners are more than enough to gather the energy needed for those 6.6 seconds, not to mention that it will probably not be used for more than 2 or 3 seconds at once, I would even say they will use it in 1.5 - 2 second bursts, for they need less batteries to store the energy and the heat dissipated will be also less and thus the system will be less prone to failures.
Sure this is only my personal opinion.
25th March 2009, 01:00
Valve Bounce

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

First of all there is no weight penalty as all the cars have to meet the minimum weight, no matter if they use or not KERS.

The start will certainly be an interesting battle between KERS and non-Kers equipped cars!

PS: Speed through corners is very variable between teams and also drivers KERS or not KERS this depends more on the set-up of the car.

I think the Kers cars will out-drag the others after exiting corners. This will be very interesting.
25th March 2009, 08:03
Dank Bank

I think it will be interesting to see what happens the first wet race. I can't imagine KERS benefiting anyone at a soaked Monaco or maybe early in the season at Malaysia.
25th March 2009, 08:32
Dave B

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_sw2000

Again i might be wrong, but as i said earlier, i dont think Kers will be charged at the start. As it takes a few laps to build up charge.

It's only allowed to store 80KW per lap, so won't take all that long to charge up.
25th March 2009, 08:46
Mark

Plus remember on the warmup lap they can set it to a maximum recharge setting, as it doesn't matter if you're being slowed down a bit on the warmup lap
25th March 2009, 14:48
edv

Is there going to be some visual indicator allowing everyone to know when the KERS is activated on a particular car? Like the bright pit lane rear lights or something flashing on the TV feed? That would certainly be of great interest to viewers as well as other teams....
25th March 2009, 15:34
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by edv

Is there going to be some visual indicator allowing everyone to know when the KERS is activated on a particular car? Like the bright pit lane rear lights or something flashing on the TV feed? That would certainly be of great interest to viewers as well as other teams....

Like push to pass in A1GP.

I expect they will be flicking it on and off so quick you wouldn't be able to follow it.
25th March 2009, 21:33
pettersolberg29

Nick Heidfeld hs confirmed he'll use KERS in Melbourne. No comment about Robert.
26th March 2009, 08:29
christophulus

Quote:

Originally Posted by pettersolberg29

Nick Heidfeld hs confirmed he'll use KERS in Melbourne. No comment about Robert.

Kubica definitely not using it as the car would be 10kg overweight otherwise.

http://www.f1way.com/news/2009/March...-kubica-in-aus
26th March 2009, 09:57
jens

Very interesting. It could be Heidfeld's great chance to turn the team-mate battle in his favour this year as in on-track battles he has clearly better opportunities than Kubica.

The negative aspect here is that whoever finishes ahead of the duo - RK or NH - the loser side will be automatically excused that he had an inferior car...
26th March 2009, 09:59
Dave B

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Very interesting. It could be Heidfeld's great chance to turn the team-mate battle in his favour this year as in on-track battles he has clearly better opportunities than Kubica.

Does he, though? Maybe without KERS Kubica's car has better weight distribution which could help him on some circuits.
26th March 2009, 10:06
Knock-on

This seems strange to me.

KERS cannot weigh so much as to use up all the ballast can it?
26th March 2009, 10:08
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Does he, though? Maybe without KERS Kubica's car has better weight distribution which could help him on some circuits.

On some circuits - probably. But over a full season?

BMW seemed so adamant in running with KERS, so that RK not running it means they have encountered some real disadvantages in his car, which wasn't the case with Nick. Kubica is running an optimized KERS-car without that system - the most negative scenario, I think.

I would add one more remark about the KERS vs non-KERS battle. Any safety car sessions would create real headaches for all non-KERS cars. It's likely that if a KERS car is behind one, it will gain one position after the flying start.
26th March 2009, 10:10
Dave B

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

This seems strange to me.

KERS cannot weigh so much as to use up all the ballast can it?

Not in every case, but KERS + Kubica is quite a heavy combination. Webber, I understand, will be similarly disadvantaged.
26th March 2009, 10:39
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

This seems strange to me.

KERS cannot weigh so much as to use up all the ballast can it?

Normally not.
Ballast was up to 90kgs last years. KERS is rumored between 25 and 35 kgs.

That article is poorly documented and written.
26th March 2009, 10:41
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Not in every case, but KERS + Kubica is quite a heavy combination. Webber, I understand, will be similarly disadvantaged.

I doubt that Kubica and Webber are some 40-50 kgs heavier than Heidfeld.
Look at Ferrari, Kimi is not a small guy still they will be running KERS on both cars.
26th March 2009, 10:49
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Kubica is running an optimized KERS-car without that system - the most negative scenario, I think.

Really?!
What is the difference between a KERS optimized car without KERS and a non KERS optimized car?
As far as I know Brawn GP have a KERS optimized car running without KERS, it doesn't seem to handicap them in any way.

Not having KERS on board gives the possibility to use 25-35 kgs of ballast compared to a KERS car, this means a slightly better handling and better tire conservation during the race.

Having KERS on the car means you get a somewhat less good handling (especially under braking) than the non KERS car, maybe a bit more tire wear but not sure and +60KW of power for 8% of a lap.

IMO the FIA should have brought the minimum weight to an even higher amount but even then someone will whine about being disadvantaged because of his height.
26th March 2009, 11:42
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Really?!
What is the difference between a KERS optimized car without KERS and a non KERS optimized car?
As far as I know Brawn GP have a KERS optimized car running without KERS, it doesn't seem to handicap them in any way.

Didn't Honda construct two chassises during '08 - one for KERS and another one not? Current BGP is obviously using the latter one.

In my understanding non-KERS optimized car is constructed without keeping in mind the needs of KERS, so that the system can't really be installed into the car in an efficient way. So in the design process the possible compromises needed for a KERS aren't taken into account at all, which is why the TF109 and non-KERSoptimized BGP001 seem to be running so smoothly. If a "KERS-car" and a "non-KERS car" both run without KERS, then I think the latter one may have an advantage as the KERS-compromises haven't been taken into account in design and it has been possible to concentrate more on performance maximizing. Well, at least this is my interpretation. :)

I wonder, how much is it going to hurt BMW's progress if they need to prepare two different cars for each GP weekend. Or isn't it a big deal at all? Another relatively unknown case that needs to be found out in the future.
26th March 2009, 12:18
ArrowsFA1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zico

The great unknown.. I know, but what do you hope for and what do you expect will happen?

Why speculate when you can see for yourself :p :

http://www.leoburnettmelbourne.com.a...ame/index.html
26th March 2009, 12:59
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Why speculate when you can see for yourself :p :

http://www.leoburnettmelbourne.com.a...ame/index.html

I'm rubbish. Only managed a 37 sec best lap :(
26th March 2009, 14:05
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Didn't Honda construct two chassises during '08 - one for KERS and another one not? Current BGP is obviously using the latter one.

As far as I know the answer is no.
Honda developed a KERS capable car, and also a KERS system.
The team decided not to use the KERS (at least that's what they say for now).

Any source for they having to different cars one optimized for KERS and one for racing without KERS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

In my understanding non-KERS optimized car is constructed without keeping in mind the needs of KERS, so that the system can't really be installed into the car in an efficient way. So in the design process the possible compromises needed for a KERS aren't taken into account at all, which is why the TF109 and non-KERSoptimized BGP001 seem to be running so smoothly. If a "KERS-car" and a "non-KERS car" both run without KERS, then I think the latter one may have an advantage as the KERS-compromises haven't been taken into account in design and it has been possible to concentrate more on performance maximizing. Well, at least this is my interpretation. :)

That is all nice and well from a belletristic POV but it doesn't explain the actual differences and how that would influence the performance of the cars.

Is the TF109 not a KERS optimized one but they will be running without KERS for a few races?
26th March 2009, 14:51
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Any source for they having to different cars one optimized for KERS and one for racing without KERS?

Well, I have been reading a lot of things over the winter, so it may be possible that Honda and Toyota have been mixed up in this regard.

Quote:

That is all nice and well from a belletristic POV but it doesn't explain the actual differences and how that would influence the performance of the cars.

Is the TF109 not a KERS optimized one but they will be running without KERS for a few races?

The actual influence on the performance will be seen during races, prior to that we pretty much have speculations. ;) But I would say that suitability of a KERS into the car depends on car characteristics too (length, wheelbase, weight balance, etc) and as we see that this year's cars are very different to each others. Renault with its heavy front end was the first one to announce their decision to run with KERS at Melbourne. At the other end of the scale we have the biggest doubter Toyota with its short front end and more rear-biased weight balance. Coincidence?
26th March 2009, 15:11
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

The actual influence on the performance will be seen during races, prior to that we pretty much have speculations. ;) But I would say that suitability of a KERS into the car depends on car characteristics too (length, wheelbase, weight balance, etc) and as we see that this year's cars are very different to each others. Renault with its heavy front end was the first one to announce their decision to run with KERS at Melbourne. At the other end of the scale we have the biggest doubter Toyota with its short front end and more rear-biased weight balance. Coincidence?

Don't know, all I can say is that you can't tell the weight bias of a car by only looking at it because it's shape is dictated by aerodynamic laws in the first place.

Also KERS is mounted (at least in one team's case) very close to the CoG of the car such that it being there or not would have very little influence on the weight distribution.

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