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I'm looking to compile a list of the best touring car drivers ever from all disciplines.
In Australia (in order):
- Jim Richards
- Peter Brock
- Dick Johnson
- Mark Skaife
- Craig Lowndes
I say Richards is the best in Australia for a few reasons. Seven Bathurst wins from 1978 to 2002 (as a 55-year-old) and 4 titles. Anyone who isn't a full time driver and can qualify 3rd for a Bathurst-equivalent touring car race at the age of 56 gets my kudos.
Here's MY view:
Andy Priaulx
James Thompson
Yvan Muller
Rickard Rydell
Jason Plato
Fabrizio Giovanardi
Gabriele Tarquini
Anthony Reid
Mat Jackson
Colin Turkington
Matt Neal
For Me
John Cleland
Andy Rouse
Steve Soper
Fabrizio Giovanardi
Win Percy
Frank Sytner
I'm sure there are others but I just can't think right now!!
Jim Clark
It's too difficult to compare the earlier touring car drivers to more recent ones as the cars and regulations have changed so much. I know Jim Clark won the BTCC in 1964 but I don't really regard him as a touring car driver. So to make things simple I'll just compare drivers from the last decade or so who have raced in Europe.
1) Yvan Muller -I reckon he is the best F/WD racer around
2) Laurent Aiello -Successful in F/WD Touring Cars and R/WD DTM
3) Alain Menu -Only man to win the BTCC supertouring title twice, but prone to the occasional error
4) Fabrizio Giovanardi - How many titles?
5) Bernd Schneider - How many DTM titles?
Likewise Michael Schumacher drove touring cars a bit...doesn't make him the best touring car driver ever! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder
I'll add Roberto Ravaglia into the mix. Steve Soper (already mentioned) and Jo Wincklehock deserve a mention
Esp when he took out Cecotto in the DTM arugably costing the venezuelan the title that year!Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
Bernd Schnieder, Klaus Ludwig, Frank Biela, Jo Winklehock, Laurent Aiello.
Indeed not, but Clark was a truly great saloon car driver of his day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
I think the really outstanding touring car driver of all time is Steve Soper. He is one of the few to have shown an ability to compete regularly against the best from all around the world in different types of car, namely 1980s Group A and 1990s Super Touring. Few of the Aussies managed that, though, in fairness, with such a strong domestic series of their own, they didn't have to. Nonetheless, that to me ranks Soper ahead of the likes of Brock and Schneider, as splendid as they were/are.
Of the rest, it's difficult to choose. I think few drivers have made more of a contribution to touring car racing than Andy Rouse, and on his day he could beat absolutely anyone. Mainland Europe has produced a huge range of brilliant international champions - I'm thinking, for example, of Winkelhock, Aiello, Tarquini, Ravaglia, Giovanardi, Menu, Biela, Muller and Rydell. You have to rank John Cleland alongside them, for while he only ever drove for one manufacturer and in one country there were few better than him in the Super Touring days. Similarly, Klaus Ludwig's largely German-based tin-top career was magnificent.
I think Soper being...how can I put it....a prickly character at times meant some people didn't warm to him. But I completely agree he was stunning in all sorts of different machinery.
Tommy Kendall and Ron Fellows, both major players in Trans Am and top rated road racers. The former dominated the 90s, the latter now a GM/Corvette/ALMS legend
Can't help but think what they would've been like had they raced in Europe with better competition.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Scuderia ferrari
My list in no particular order:
Yvan Muller - a genius behind the wheel, stunning car control
Fabrizio Giovanardi - 8 touring car titles... that has to say something.
Alain Menu - Double winner of BTCC in 90s and 2000s, and don't forget that he finished 2nd in the championship three times prior to his 1997 championship victory
Andy Rouse - the most successful BTCC driver in history
John Cleland - Charismatic and a rather excellent driver
Andy Priaulx - "WTCC's answer to Michael Schumacher" is a quote I heard somewhere.
I'd also include Rickard Rydell and Frank Biela.
Erkut Kizilirmak
Ibrahim Okayay
Aytac Biter
<<<<<<< See Why?
Even though he has beaten most of the drivers on my list, I was reluctant to put Andy Priaulx on the list because the rules and regulations in the WTCC just seem to be made up as they go along. Plus, I've not actually seen many of his races to judge his ability.
okay I'm going to pick 3 from the 80's 90's and 00's
Andy Rouse will his record ever be beaten
John Cleland, MR Vauxhall and a gent
Chris Hodgetts, back to back champ in a toyota
David Leslie, should have been champ. clean driver
Alain Menu, record speaks for itself
Will Hoy
Yvan Muller, yes he is arrogant but what car control
Fab Gio, think we have still to see the best of him here
Andy Prialux, again world champ how many times, would love to see him back here
True the regulations in the WTCC seem to spring out of thin air sometimes and perhaps you could attribute one or even two championships to that. But Andy Priaulx has won four championships in a row (and was in contention down to the final race weekend in his very first season in the ETCC in 2003), you don't get that by hodge-podge regulations or luck. He doesn't have anything left to prove and is clearly a great of touring car racing. Of course if you haven't seen many of his races then that's fair enough, I couldn't and wouldn't be able comment on who is the best Australian V8 Supercar driver ever for the same reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Best touring car drivers ever? It is really so hard to judge because of different eras and regulations. Of the ones I have seen since I started watching touring cars in 1992 (in no particular order):
Bernd Schneider
Fabrizio Giovanardi
Andy Priaulx
Yvan Muller
Alain Menu
Laurent Aiello
John Cleland
From the guys which I have watched I must say Bernd Schneider and Giovarandi.
The best builder of Touring Cars without question is Tom Walkinshaw. A few European Touring Car championships to his name (one as a driver), twice winner of the Spa 24 Hours, and 4 wins by his cars at the Bathurst 1000. He even won a Macau Guia.
Win Percy won the ETCC as a driver, the Spa 24 hours and a Bathurst 1000.
Jacky Ickx has won the Spa 24 hours, a Bathurst 1000 and Le Mans.
Peter Brock won Bathurst 9 times (10 if you include a 24 hour race in a car so hideously cheating it wasn't funny), and took a couple of Commodores to Spa in 1986.
Joe Winkelhock scored a BTCC title, a German STW title, a Spa 24 Hours, two Guias, and a Le Mans win.
Giovanardi... is there anything he hasn't won?
3 Italian championships, a Spanish title, 3 WTCCs, and now back to back winner of the BTCC.
Yes, but the Spa episode — indeed, that whole ETCC campaign — isn't the proudest entry on his CV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
It wasn't WTCC it was the ESTC and ETCC he won (same series of course but different stature).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Dieter Quester
Gerry Marshall
Roberto Ravaglia
Steve Soper
Peter Brock
Mark Skaife
Andy Priaulx
Whilst the Monaro was far superior to the opposition, its unfair to say it was cheating, the car well and truly met the rules for Nations Cup Group One.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
For me, without any shadow of a doubt Alain Menu is the greatest driver in touring car history to have sat behind the wheel, and I feel privaliged to say that I was around to watch him race in the BTCC.
Because the rules were changed to allow it in. Nations Cup started out as a GT3 defined series, however the Monaro 427 didn't meet this as there was only one road car and none actually produced by Holden themselves. At best it could have been defined as a GT1 car, however that would have still required that three road-going examples be produced which Garry Rogers Motorsport did not do.Quote:
Originally Posted by racer69
In the end PROCAR needed a flagship selling point for the event, and under the same "Nations Cup" regs which brought that in, also saw the Mosler entered which itself never saw homologation as a GT3 car.
At the same time, I was in a group that was told that the Ford Mondeo which we had intended to bring over from New Zealand was inelligible because there wasn't a showroom equivalent in Australia at the time (the Mondeo was dropped in 2001).
As for Commodores in Europe. From what I've read recently, the implosion which went on between Brock, the HDT and Holden, meant that the cars which raced in 1986 and subsequently John Harvey's campaign in 1987 was nothing short of remarkable.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Rickard Rydell
Jason Plato
John Cleland
Laurent Aiello
Will Hoy
Andy Rouse
Colin Turkington
Frank Biela
Anthony Reid
Gabriele Tarquini
James Thompson
and the late gerry marny(think thats how you spell it)
Yvan Muller
Fabrizio Giovanardi
Andy Priaulx
Larry Perkins
Gerry Marshall
John Cleland
Andy Rouse
Jason Plato
Alain Menu
Yvan Muller
Fabrizio Giovanardi
Andy Priaulx
John Cleland
Andy Rouse
Jason Plato
Alain Menu
James Thompson
Win Percy has to be at number one, don't forget his three BTCC titles!!! as well as Spa and Bathurst.
Steve Soper
Frank Gardner
Roberto Ravaglia
Gerry Marshall
Jim Clark
Andy Rouse
Peter Brock
I have watched all of the above and Tarquini and Gioare on the edge of the list as well.
agp
Bernd Schneider
Andy Priaulx
Joachim Winkelhock
Steve Soper
Masanori Sekiya
Masahiro Hasemi
Kazuyoshi Hoshino
Nobuhide Tachi
Charles Kwan
Gabriele Tarquini
Alain Menu
I dont really know that much about Touring Cars outside of Europe so i'll base my favourite 20 on what i've seen
1. Alain Menu
2. Bernd Schneider
3. Andy Priaulx
4. Fabrizio Giovanardi
5. Andy Rouse
6. Rickard Rydell
7. Gabriele Tarquini
8. Jo Winkelhock
9. Yvan Muller
10. Laurent Aiello
11. Jason Plato
12. Steve Soper
13. John Cleland
14. James Thompson
15. Matt Neal
16. Tim Harvey
17. Matias Ekstrom
18. Paul Radisich
19. Colin Turkington
20. Alex Zanardi
The question in the title of the thread forces me to ask, which touring car series do you include in your rankings? To me it seems most of the lists here are quite BTCC-based and for example DTM is very overlooked in this regard. However, it's really difficult to compare those two series for example, so maybe there actually isn't much point in trying to compile a list, which includes both of them plus other touring car series (WTCC, etc)?
Here's my top five:
1) Alan Taylor
2) Erkut Kizilirmak
3) John George
4) Jim Pocklington
5) Stuart Oliver
Hi all.......What about Gerry Marshall?
What about Gerry Marshall?
If you look, some people have listed him in their top ten.
Anyway Gerry was not just a great touring car driver.. he was a great driver!
What ever he raced, he did it 110%. I think he had more wins in cars other than touring cars.
A man sadly missed.
nice to see some Aussie's getting a mention! I'd like to make mention of the following Aussie's for your list:
- Peter Brock - most popular Australian race driver (of any form) ever, period, full stop. During the late 70's and early 80's he was commonly accepted as God. Those who dissagreed suggested that the confusion arose from the fact that God wished he was Peter Brock.
- Larry Perkins - best touring car engineer and builder ever seen in Australia. Wasn't a half bad driver either, made it (ever so briefly) into F1
- Mark Skaife - Statistically the best ever Australian touring car driver.
- Dick Johnson - never had the most money, never had the best equipment barring a very brief period in the early 90's, every one of his acheivements where off the back of sheer determination.
- Craig Lowndes - many people down here think he is the most naturally gifted race car driver Australia has ever produced but was never given the opportunity to strut his stuff in europe and F1. I personally don't buy all that but is certainly one of the best touring car drivers Australia has produced.
- Marcus Ambrose - is now a "good 'ol boy" in NASCAR land and is doing ok, while he was in Australia he won 2 V8 Supercar titles in 4 seasons, and won a shed load of races along the way, had an incredible strike rate!
- Greg Murphy - in my opinion the most naturally gifted race car driver Australian touring car racing has ever seen (he is actually a New Zealander, but has spent nearly his entire career in Australia). Unfortunately he is incredibly tempromental and often gets the sh!ts and loses focus, hence why he has never won a championship. Everything pretty much has to be perfect for Murph to do something special, but my goodness when everything IS working for him, you get something out of this world! The best example of this is when he set the Bathurst lap record in 2003, and not only has no one been able to get near it since, it took a number of years before anyone could even get within a second of it! At the time it was nearly 2 seconds faster then anyone else. This in a series renowed for its very tight technical regulations meaning that the qualifying field spread from first to 20th is often covered by less then 1 second. To cap it all off he revealed after the lap that he actually grabbed first gear instead of third at a critical moment in the lap which the lap data later revealed costed him around 2 tenths of a second, meaning his lap could have been even more unbelievable.
- Jim Richards - a driver who just loved racing cars. Was fast in anything he drove and won alot of races and championships as a result. The saying goes with Jim Richards that if it has a steering wheel, he'll win a race in it. Also a New Zealander by birth, but spent majority of his career in Australia
Surely its has to be Mike Smith !!! ;)
Andy Rouse
John Cleland
Frank Sytner
Frank Gardner
Gerry Marshall
Jim Clark
Klaus Ludwig
Peter Brock
Gordon Spice
Win Percy
In reply to WSRfan82 I think/hope you meant Gerry Marshall and not Jerry Mahoney....The latter being not only a pretty rubbish driver but also a Drug Smuggler alongside Vic lee......Cocaine smuggled into the UK in empty gas cylinders in a VLM transporter.