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I'd like to pose that question to some of the CCWS guys. I wonder what their answers would be. Especially interesting would be Will Power and Justin Wilson since they are highly skilled road guys that have never driven ovals.
What are the opinions of our forum members. Do you all think oval racing dulls road racing skills as far as reaction times, feel for the car etc etc. ???
If this is true, it proves that these are two different disciplines and it is incorrect to say that one is better or weaker than the other.
I've noticed that oval racers adopt to road courses faster than road racers adopt to ovals.
I think Road Course racers adapt to ovals a lot quicker than oval racers adapt to road courses.Quote:
Originally Posted by call_me_andrew
to use two current racers as an example....
Ed Carpenter (oval background).... after two years on road courses he's still struggling.
EJ Viso (road background)..... after just a few races in a mid pack team he is up to speed on ovals.
I think the key distinction may be that road racers become competent on ovals quicker - but I do not think they necessarily master them any quicker.....
That being said, a great driver who watches his or her fitness will adjust quickly to either...
I think with an oval you can't blink.......On a road course you can sometimes take a breather.
Thats not to say either is easier, I think many road course racers feel they have learned to focus even more intently on the track.
Other than that they have to learn to set up the car on an oval which is harder than driving the thing. Sometimes comfortable isn't fast......
The original post asks if oval racing dulls reaction time skills. I don't think so. It may dull skills in shifting gears while maintaining car control but not reaction times. Watch the oval in-car camera shots and you will see very quick reactions to loose or push conditions.
I think the main difference between the two disciplines is the type of conditioning. Oval guys would focus conditioning on turning left and handling sustained G-loads. They would probably also focus in more on the nuance of the handling of the car. Road course guys would focus less on specialized body strength and would have to pay more attention to their legs for braking and throttle response. I would imagine road course guys would have to condition themselves for a generally rougher ride - but that is only a guess. I also imagine they would be more in tune to a compromise car setup that didn't necessarily optimize the car for any specific turn....
Since a road course guys is probably going to have a higher general level of fitness, I would think he/she would be more likely to physically adapt to ovals quicker and therefore attain and maintain a competitive pace throughout the race quicker. However, since the oval guy is probably more in tune with focusing on the car and track conditions he/she might actually get up to speed setting up a road course car quicker of he/she can grasp the concept that setup is more of a compromise on a road course....
anyway, since I am a nursery guy I really don't have a clue - it seems to me that a great driver will adapt quickly to whatever is thrown their way - heck Robby Gordon finished second in his first ever dirt oval race this week. Rick Mears figured paved ovals very quickly even though he was an off-road racer and was very competitive with Nelson Piquet in his several Brabham F-1 tests... (according to a recent article in Motorsport....)...
J. Brahbam, AJ Foyt, Mario Andretti, Parnelli Jones, Lloyd Ruby, Dave McDonald, Al, Al jr., Bobby Unser, Gordon Johncock all came off of dirt ovals which change continually during a race meaning their is NO one car set-up, or ONE line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
You snooze, you lose.
Bob
Since 1980 most of the top driver have had a road racing background. Rahal, Michael Andretti, Fittipaldi, Sullivan, Luyendyk, Tracy, etc. Last guy with a significant amount of dirt racing background to do well in CART/IRL was Al Jr and even he honed his talent in CanAm before coming to Indycars....
Some of the early IRL guys were dirt track racers -but as the series grew they were squeezed out by road racers.... I think Hornish was the last one standing for the most part.... The modern NASCAR guys are coming from a dirt track background...
I am guessing that the modern AOWR car (i.e. since ground effects/ the age of aero) has had a lot less to do with sliding/car control and alot more to do with commitment (i.e. brass commitment if you get my drift), setup skills, marketability, and physical conditioning.... It seems like the skill involved in a modern Indycar has a lot to do with having faith that the car will turn when you enter a turn going so fast.... F-1 takes that to yet another level and might account for why AOWR guys have a hard time with that transition....
Perhaps that is the key to a new formula - bring back car control as the primary skill needed by a driver.....
Jack Brabham came from Australian Midget racing. Foyt came from IMCA Sprints and won the first time he raced in a Road Race, Nassau in 1963. Andretti did do some Formula Junior in Europe but Modifieds, Sprints and Midgets over here. Parnelli was Sprints in the CRA and won the L.A. Times GP in 1964. LLoyd Ruby ran second to Roger Penske in the USAC Road Racing Division in 1962, he did come from Midgets orginally. Dave MacDonald was purely from Road Racing Stock and was the Ford Cobra lead driver and could have been one of the greats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Al Unser like Bobby came from the best Road Course in the World, Pikes Peak.
Al Jr made some starts in Sprints but got his feet wet literally in CanAmII.
Gordon Johncock came from the Super Modified wars of Michigan and Ohio and on Pavement, yes he drove on the National Championship Trail starting in Springfield of 1964 but hated the dirt even though he could qualify for the 18 car fields and never got dirty after 1965 other than in a USAC Stock Car.
It is Interesting that at MIS the following drivers won their first or second race with Road Racing background:
Ronnie Buckman---1st and Only
Mark Donohue---2nd (First Pocono)
Danny Ongais---1st Win (F-5000 history after drags)
John Paul Jr---1st and Only
Emerson Fittipaldi---1st
Alex Barron---1st and Only
You are correct about McDonald, I am thinking of some one else but cannot remember who.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Maybe I was thinking of Sneva or Rutherford, they both won on road courses.
G. Follmer won his only USAC race on the short Phoenix oval.
Yes about George, you remember the car and engine? Wasn't a fluke as he timed in 2nd fastest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Gerhardt Chevy if I remember correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Chevy was right but it was the #28 Gilbert Cheetah-Chevy. Blue was the color, he actually ran the car in 1968. He had a second that was yellow and wore #62 and it qualified for the 500 in 1969 with a Turbo-Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
What a difference in a year: From the 1968 Bryan 150 at PIR, same race won in 1969.
24 22 #28 George Follmer George R. Bryant 1967 Cheetah Ford 0 laps Wrecked
Now another Road racer, Stock Car driver won a race at PIR in 3 more races. He too won in a "stock block" with special heads and it was his ONLY win.
David SavageQuote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
David Earl "Swede" Savage led the 150th lap to win the Bobby Ball 150 in 1970 in a 1970 Eagle Weslake 320 Ford. Roger McCluskey ran out of fuel going into Turn 1 on lap 150.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Wilson and Power never driven Ovals before? Wilson took 2nd on The Mile and Power ran well until the DNF incident. Drivers I've spoken with consider flat ovals like Milwaukee much like a road race with 4 quick left turns. Flat out on high banked ovals is mush different and with the absence of street and road races on the schedule, they tend to get a little rusty on right-left-right entry and exits. No different to what we saw with the IRL's first street race at St. Pete's and then in Sonoma. Then again, the Dallara was a beast to handle too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
Your absolutely right and you'll hear the same comments from veterans like Vasser, Rahal, Barron, Gidley, Servia, Carpentier, Dominguez, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobGarage
I canīt but think about Nigel Mansell, who went from no oval experience at all to winning the CART title when the series had a lot of ovals, didnīt his second oval race ever was the 93 Indy 500? (does a tri-oval counts as his first oval race, cause I donīt know if the 500 is his 1st or 2nd oval depending on your opinions of tri-ovals), finishing 3rd on the 500 when is your 2nd oval sounds good in my book.
I think one reason this is coming up because the quality of the talent has greatly diminished. All the top USAC/WOO talent is going right to NASCAR and the top F1 guys don't come here after their short F1 carriers are over. Look, a top class driver like Foyt, Stewart, or Mansel can adjust to anything very quickly.
I can still remember Montoya's maiden trip to Indy when people thought his lack of experience would cost him. Instead he put on a clinic about how to race on cold tires and push the car to its physical limit without hitting the wall. I'd say 80% of street/road racers adapt very well to oval racing of most varieties.
On the flip side only about 20% of the oval discipline seem to adapt well to turning the car in both directions and dealing with camber and grading on street circuits. Ms. Fisher is a prime example.
Well I wasn't just thinking about open-wheel. I was thinking of stock cars and sports cars. Examples there would be Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Dale Earnhart (both senior and junior). All of them have good records at road races and have run well in sports car races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Just the one I was going to bring up!Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide
Another frame of comparison:
I saw Danica get punted out of pole at T1 in Portland Atlantic race II. She then spent the remainder of the race picking off most of the field by passing them on the track. Second place in the Formula Ford Festival, the most competitive racing anywhere.
And after a couple years of oval, oval, oval? Need I say more?
You apparently saw something no one else has seen; she has never done anything, anywhere, even to date.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
Oh Lordy, conspiracy schemes run wild. The EVIL ovals plan world domination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilf
Her failling is due to either her lessor talent or her self-absorbing attitudes that what ever is wrong is NOT HER FAULT.
BUT then maybe they should require any IRL driver to drive at least five sprint car races a year that would put the fear of God in them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
I think this is the most accurate comment.
Oh h!!!, even the sprint car races of today are becoming one groove, follow the leader events. The only dicing anymore is getting through lapped traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe