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Tough one to call.
50-50
Perhaps a tad too harsh, TBH, as he was slightly ahead as they were side by side.
Don't understand why there isn't normal turf round that part of the track. I suppose the GPDA complained about dirt and crap being brought onto the racing line :rolleyes:
Aha. Check Heiki in the penultimate lap, slowed trough the chicane, didn't pass Triulli, no problem, no penalty.
Lewis passed Vettel. Should have let him go ahead of him.
I would prefer to have seen a camera angle outside of Hamilton's cockpit before making final judgement but I'm guessing the stewards have access to that footage and made the appropriate call.
I think the penalty was fair even though Hamilton most likely would have held onto the position.
If you pass and then don't make the next chicane,
It is arguably because you hadn't braked early enough to stay on track!
Kinda sucks as passing is so difficult in F1
Very fair. This is yet more proof that Lewis just doesn't have the mindset of a champion. A better driver would have let Vettel past and have had him on the next lap but Lewis didn't do it and paid for it...... Tunnel vision gets you nowhere kiddo.
You took the words out of my keyboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Hamilton was being stupid again and paid the penalty. Deserved.
On balance, yeah. If he had slowed enough to make the corner, he wouldn't have made the pass. So he gained/held a place ONLY by cutting the corner, so he "gained an advantage" by cutting the corner, so, yeah, pretty much exactly what the rule is designed for.
What he SHOULD have done is given the place back - he could almost certainly have taken the car again, fair & square, given their relative levels of performance, so it was a boneheaded call to hold it.
Nothing short of what I was expecting from Lewy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody
But what about the team? What the hell were they thinking? That they will not be penalized because they already got some penalties?! :rolleyes:
According to Brundle that decision would most likely have been down to the team after they'd spoken by radio to the FIA, if that is indeed the case you cant exactly blame Lewis personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
It may be down to an interpretation of the rules but overall I agree with the decision, technicaly he may well have been past Vetel by the time he left the track but that is an extremely bad precedent to set imo..
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
They were side by side, Lewis had the outside line for the first part of the chicane, makes a slight error into the second part and goes off the track.
Brundle called it 50-50
what if Lewis/McLaren got away with it? Giving the place back to Vettel would've slightly hampered his charge through the field.
Not that I'm Lewis-lover, the stewards have made error judgements before so I'm wondering how they made the decision. It's going to be interesting how this all unravels!
Drivers judgement, Hamilton is driving the car not his team. I think you can blame Hamilton for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
No, not really. The onboard clearly shows Lewis got to the apex of the first part of the chicane so the pass on Vettel was already done and dusted, plus, he got sidways when he hit that kurb which sent him off. What I want to know is, why did they give him a penalty when the stewards have been happy to let other people get away with it for years (Schumacher/de la Rosa in Hungry 06 anyone?).
But that's the whole point - if you jump a chicane with premeditation, you will almost ALWAYS take a car close in front before the chicane itself (if you don't just collect him, of course) because they'll have to brake before you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
I'm not saying LH was premediated here, but the same principle applies - if you outbrake yourself, you will be going faster, and so you'll get ahead... until you crash, spin or jump the chicane.
fair..
I'm pretty sure Schumi immediately gave the place back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper
Care to show us when did MS pass PDLR by cutting a chicane in Hungary 2006 and kept his position?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper
Yes. Definately. He gained an advantage from going across the chicane. Basics.
He is really not impressive when in traffic. Seems as if he's anywhere from 2nd-20th, he can't cope too well!
I don't understand why the team didn't ask race control to clarify the situation over whether or not he should give the place back, it would have saved a lot of trouble. Or if they did ask then I'm not sure why he got the penalty.
But assuming that none of that happened then I guess it was justified.
I agree, Nikki.
Maybe McLaren told him to but Lewis didn't agree...
I think it needs to be given back there and then for there to be any effect on penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezza
I believe you to be right on this matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Of course!! It was the team's fault, once again, like not telling him to stop at red lights...... :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikki Katz
RD should be given a drive by penalty, and lewis should do another commercial...... after all, danica P is doing photo "spreads", beckham is doing undie ads (and denying claims of photo enlargement of his "gear" with photoshop), so the team better wake up Lewis, get him to strip and get with it now...once again, his own team is letting him down..... :(
I couldn't see exactly where Vettel was from that onboard shot and haven't seen any other angle myself. If Vettel and Hamilton were close enough that contact was an issue, I'd say that Hamilton did the right thing by running wide. If LH did run wide out of choice (to avoid contact) then I would understand why he didn't think of giving the place back.
There are other things happening on track that are affecting the results more than curb-hopping. Like weaving down the straights! A driver gets into the slipstream and the lead car takes a tight turn. According to the rules, he is not allowed to make any movement back online. I've seen the lead car move so far across that u can't get a bicycle thru on the inside, then weave back towards the racing line just on corner entry. In my opinion, those drivers should get a drive thru immediately. That has to be as bad, if not worse, than the LH situation today.
He kept his position because he cut the chicane. If he had stayed on track he woudd have been overtaken by PDLR....Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
make an effort and try to be objective.
I donīt know how was this the teamīs fault
the penalty was correct, no doubt... He passed because he didnīt brake in time so he missed the corner and cut the chicane...
well.... youīre wrong... he tried the same trick the following lap but didnīt pull it off that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
You're basing your point on a supposition, there is no proof to support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
And then he retired. This penalties are given several laps after the "crime".Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
of course there isnīt .... because he cut the chicane!Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
it was pretty obvious but thatīs not enough for you...
Did Micheal Schumacher win today?
the penalty was a bit harsh.
1. he had clearly passed him as they entered the chicane, and avoided crashing into the driver ahead ( which would have been the car in consideration for taking advantage off) casing him to loose time to that car and avoiding crashing into him.
2. If at all it was deemed by the stewards to be an infractrion, why was he not radio'd to let Vettel repass. Both Mclaren and Hamilton saw nothing wrong with the move,and I'm sure it is only after some dubious protest by STR that after a number of laps, they issued a penalty.
I would like to know the due process in this situation. Is the driver warned to let the other car repass, or do they just wait for 6,7 laps and then call in the driver?
meanwhile Kimi drivers around for half the race with a dangerous piece of exhaust pipe dangling from the car, and obvious danger to the cars behind. No call in, nothing from the stewards, he even gets to pit and exit with the same danger until it luckily falls off while on the track.
Then trulli swerves into Kovaleinen which could have ended up terribly and nothing.
oh well. without that penality, he would have challenged for 3rd.
It always take time to investigate before a penalty is given. Ofcourse the Mclaren are long gone before they can give vettel his place back. Ofcourse Mclaren and Hamilton think it is a correct move like a turkey doesn;t want his head chopped off for thanksgiving.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Looked to me like fair fighting from Trulli. Based on in-car footage from Heikki, Trulli definitely appeared to have had the line and Heikki should have backed off. But I'll look at it again once I finish downloading the ITV broadcast. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
i've seen penalties given for less, i've seen them not given for worse, it was a close enough call to say that a penalty is fair, and McLaren have certainly used up any credit they had with the FIA so if there is a close call i reckon it will be a while before they get one in their favour, and to be honest i don't think they would be able to argue with that.
the incident in isolation, hamilton was past, but conceivabley if he'd slwed enough to not understeer out of the chicane then he may not have made the pass - tough call, i wouldn't have given the penalty, but then again i don't think it was exactly unfair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinho
fair enough assesment
i'm not 100% sure but i think Vettel's position is irrelevent in this case. Its not wheither you gain a position or not its about gaining an advantage towards other car(s).
If you look at this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWvelG8gsMg
Hamilton overtook a car just before the chicane but when approaching the next chicane he goes straigh on instead of breaking and turning right into the chicane.
Again i'm not 100% sure but i think all "short cuts" over chicanes/corners are banned and drivers doing that will have to slow down to make sure that any possible advantage gained through the "false" manoveur will be gone.
The law that they keep quoting on ITV states that you aren't allowed to miss an apex in order to gain or to maintain your position.
As LH was ahead of Vettel before the entry of the first turn, I don't think the penalty was for 'advantage gaining for making a position'. I think the penalty was for 'advantage gained for not losing a position'.
It was for gaining an advantage. Not a place.
People! There is no point in arguing these decisions. I came to the conclusion long ago that the race stewards are inconsistent and always will be unless some radical change is made. Wasting time yelling at the TV when a dumb decision comes down is a waste of energy...
Truefan, onemore thing. i think Lewis should should have noticedthat he drived over the chicane and not through it. therefore he should have know that he had to back off but he continued to race as nothing had happened.