Adrian Sutil: a liabilty?

Does anyone else think that Force India's Adrian Sutil is starting to look like a bit of a liability?

Last year, he comfortably defeated his teammates Albers and Yamamoto, but he caused 3 consecutive first lap incidents in Australia, Malaysia and Bahrain, and then crashed in Canada, the Nurburgring (albeit others did too), and China. His only saving grace was that he has good natural pace, he scored a point, and that his team-mates spent just as much of their time off the track as well.

This year, he has struggled with the tyres, but surely they are nearly the same as last year's ones, and against Fisichella, he is being shown up. Now I'm not sure what happened in Bahrain, but I know he was involved in a first lap accident; if anyone knows can they elaborate?

I'm sure Vitantonio Liuzzi can do a better job at this time. A year as a test driver wouldn't hurt Sutil too much. Think of it as a Massa/Sato type deal. That way, when Fisichella retires (probably 2 or 3 years), Sutil can come back in matured and quicker, and into a Force india team which will definitely be stronger.

Is Sutil's race seat at Force India at risk from Liuzzi or anyone else in 2008?

I think Sutil is suffering in a similar fashion to Massa--poor race luck. The big difference at this moment is that Massa is at least as fast as Kimi.

Giancarlo has been quicker in every test and in every practice session and in every race, but the gap is shrinking. The past race it was down to .4. Adrian's performance last year flattered to deceive, and now that he's paired against a true professional, his weaknesses have been magnified. However, I still think he has the talent to get on with the job.

Going with Liuzzi is not the answer, IMO.

They should have hired Christian Klein, and kept Sutil as reserve and test driver. After all, Klein was quicker than ALL of the drivers who tested for Force India, and I don't think he would have cost the team more money that Sutil or Liuzzi. He beat all the challengers: what else could they have asked from the guy?

For all the hype that Sutil generated last year, he has been smashed by Fisi this season...

give him time, we are 3 races into the season.

I do beleive he dowes have talent and if he were at any other team, bar Super Aguri, he would be actually doing quite well.

Rember, this is the same guy who gave LH a run for his money back in the lower ranks. The same guy who drove stunningly at Spa and impressed at a few other tracks.

I'm not ready to proclaim him finished yet.
Fisi was always a better driver than he showed at times.
He certainly never enjoyed the pressure -looking over his shoulder- sitution at Renault. Some drivers respond well to being harrased and pushed. others' don't. Now pressure free, he is actually doing much better.

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

They should have hired Christian Klein, and kept Sutil as reserve and test driver.
After all, Klein was quicker than ALL of the drivers who tested for Force India and I don't think he would have cost the team more money that Sutil or Liuzzi. He beat all the challengers: what else could they have asked from the guy?

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If my memory serves me correctly (which it rarely does) I made that same argument during
the selection process. Klien's biggest liability is he had a shot and didn't take full advantage of it.
Sponge Bob was regularly quicker, but Klien showed some signs of greatness (he was a hard charger)
but he couldn't avoid contact. He made A very public statement that went along the lines of
"I'm glad we are bringing in all the candidates to test at the same time.
because I will show I am the fastest! (I'm paraphrasing of course) The Damnedest thing is , is he did beat them. In a Steel cage/Smackdown.

C'est la vie

It's been my experience that the road is
strewn with dudes that almost made it.
I mean you have to step over, and around them!

Sutil was overrated last season.

I know one thing: before each race, I pray that ant can avoid this guy like the plague.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I know one thing: before each race, I pray that ant can avoid this guy like the plague.

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Klien, or Sponge Bob? :D

Give him some time/half a season.

Second season syndrome. I think its fair to say drivers are allowed a dip in form over a period of time.

Looking back on the first half of the 2004 season I'm sure plenty here would've said Alonso was over-rated up against Trulli.

He's a waste of space, it was just a fluke he was quick in that wet practice last year, that got people talking. Your teammate is always the true measure, Fisi has made him look less than average!

Schnell, some could say the same thing about Ant. He had a habit of getting caught up first lap incidents!

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Originally Posted by Storm

For all the hype that Sutil generated last year, he has been smashed by Fisi this season...

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It's a strange thing that Fisichella is capable of in an underperforming car, he can really drive the wheel nuts off it and overacheive with what he's got. If only he could of done that with decent cars, he would be legendary and up in the top five drivers for sure.

He will be more well known for being the underdog pick for the win.

Fisi is a solid driver but he's not top-rated because he was in a car capable of many wins and challenge for WDC he was next to useless at times - compared to DC's achievements with McLaren who at times managed to give Schumi a good run for his money, let alone Hakkinen.

Fisi win at the 2006 Malaysian GP said it all. He drove on the ragged edge to get that win, whereas in Alonso's wins looks easy.

It's really sad how Fisi's career has gone. He used to be a regular challenger for the podium at certain tracks even in a midfield car. One thing I could throw into the debate is the fact that traction control has now gone, and we're now seeing the Fisi of the late 90's, when, coincidentally, the car was without traction control. Maybe he excels more when his natural talent can be displayed without driver aids. I can throw in others who are similar:

Button - fastest lap early on in Bahrain in a mid-pack car
Trulli - great in every race so far
Heidfeld - doing a good job again, he started his F1 career before TC came in.

I'm sure Sutil will get better, he just needs to stop putting it in the scenery. Even then I think Fisi is too good for him though.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Schnell, some could say the same thing about Ant. He had a habit of getting caught up first lap incidents!

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............being rammed by Sutil ain't fun though, is it?

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Originally Posted by wedge

Fisi is a solid driver but he's not top-rated because he was in a car capable of many wins and challenge for WDC he was next to useless at times - compared to DC's achievements with McLaren who at times managed to give Schumi a good run for his money, let alone Hakkinen.

Fisi win at the 2006 Malaysian GP said it all. He drove on the ragged edge to get that win, whereas in Alonso's wins looks easy.

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Whaaaat?

I think DC was hugely overated and was arguably driving in one of the top 2 teams/cars for at least 8 years and really did nothing with that.
he was always more likely to be passed than pass and couldn't rack up the wins in the same fashion that Massa is doing now given his opportunity.

D.C given the drives he has had, should have done more. Much. much more. He's always been a timid driver

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Whaaaat?

I think DC was hugely overated and was arguably driving in one of the top 2 teams/cars for at least 8 years and really did nothing with that.
he was always more likely to be passed than pass and couldn't rack up the wins in the same fashion that Massa is doing now given his opportunity.

D.C given the drives he has had, should have done more. Much. much more. He's always been a timid driver

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Totally agree! Too coservative when he was in a winning car!

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

I'm sure Vitantonio Liuzzi can do a better job at this time. A year as a test driver wouldn't hurt Sutil too much. Think of it as a Massa/Sato type deal. That way, when Fisichella retires (probably 2 or 3 years), Sutil can come back in matured and quicker, and into a Force india team which will definitely be stronger.

Is Sutil's race seat at Force India at risk from Liuzzi or anyone else in 2008?

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Could anyone explain me why so many keep hyping Liuzzi, when he has done nothing in F1, besides getting beaten by 3 team mates in row?
A year as a test-driver will give a driver less than being an actual racing driver will give, Alonso himself said that about his year at Renault doing testing in 2002.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Whaaaat?

I think DC was hugely overated and was arguably driving in one of the top 2 teams/cars for at least 8 years and really did nothing with that.
he was always more likely to be passed than pass and couldn't rack up the wins in the same fashion that Massa is doing now given his opportunity.

D.C given the drives he has had, should have done more. Much. much more. He's always been a timid driver

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DC had a certain Michael Schumacher as his greatest rival. Sometimes it was not much fun for drivers to have him as a rival.


Sutil is not doing too well, but give him some races. He will never be a star driver though, I already thought last year that he was somewhat overrated when he struggled against Sakon in one race.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Whaaaat?

I think DC was hugely overated and was arguably driving in one of the top 2 teams/cars for at least 8 years and really did nothing with that.
he was always more likely to be passed than pass and couldn't rack up the wins in the same fashion that Massa is doing now given his opportunity.

D.C given the drives he has had, should have done more. Much. much more. He's always been a timid driver

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Some would say Massa is over rated and will never become WDC.

I'd say DC and Massa are about equal because they've done more than enough for a #2 in a top team paired with WDC because on a number of occasions they could beat their closest rivals, whereas Fisi struggled a bit even though I would put him in the same group - IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Could anyone explain me why so many keep hyping Liuzzi, when he has done nothing in F1, besides getting beaten by 3 team mates in row?

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iI don't think Speed beat him. I think he's a solid driver, not a superstar but good enough to keep the car on the track most of the time and get the car to the end without problems.

I know he crashed a coupe of times last season but he's been fairly good in his career so far.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Whaaaat?

I think DC was hugely overated and was arguably driving in one of the top 2 teams/cars for at least 8 years and really did nothing with that.
he was always more likely to be passed than pass and couldn't rack up the wins in the same fashion that Massa is doing now given his opportunity.

D.C given the drives he has had, should have done more. Much. much more. He's always been a timid driver

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1994- Williams-Renault - good car, but DC was a rookie and shared his seat with Senna and Mansell during the season.

1995- Williams - good car, but not as good as the Benetton. 8 podiums and first win.

1996- McLaren-Mercedes - team score less than 50 points, podiums hard to come by.

1997- McLaren - decent car, team fights for good results. DC wins in Oz and Monza. Hakkinen wins in Jerez by default.

1998- McLaren - Excellent car. DC wins at Imola, and finishes second 6 times. Hakkinen wins the championship.

1999- McLaren - Excellent car, DC wins at Silverstone and Spa. Hakkinen wins the championship after battle with M Schumacher and Irvine.

2000- McLaren- Very good car, DC wins at Silverstone, Monaco and Magny-Cours. Hakkinen just misses out on the title to Michael Schumacher.

2001- McLaren- Second best by a LONG WAY to Ferrari. DC is second in the championship while Hakkinen struggles. DC and Hakkinen get 2 wins each.

2002- McLaren- Car not up there with Ferrari, and just behind Williams. Paired with Raikkonen, and beats him.

2003- McLaren- Good car, but essentially tweaked 2002 model. Kimi loses out by 2 points to Schumacher, but only wins once. Coulthard also wins once, in Australia.

2004- McLaren- Bad car, then good car. McLaren struggle over first half of season, with DC getting the better of Kimi. then they get the new car and Kimi wins in belgium.

2005- Red Bull-Cosworth- decent midfield car. Scores 24 points, as he did in 2004, and outperforms new team-mates Liuzzi and Klien.

2006- Red Bull-Ferrari- similar to 2005 for Red Bull. Coulthard finishes on the podium at Monaco, and scores 16 points. Klien is dropped to make way for Doornbos.

2007- Red Bull-Renault.- DC paired with Mark Webber. Both men are even for the most part, although DC scores more points as both RBR's suffer with reliabilty.

2008- Red Bull-Renault- Webber gets 2 early points finishes, while DC causes 2 early accidents. Webber has the edge in qualifying, and the races so far in 08 but it's early days.


NOW, if we take all of Coulthard's seasons, the World Championship was only possible for him really in '98, 99 and maybe 2000. Then take away 4 seasons with Red Bull, 4 bad seasons with McLaren, and his rookie year, and there are only 95, 98, 99, 2000, 01 and 03 where he even had a chance of winning Grands Prix.

I'm not a huge Coulthard fan but I like him and think he has done very well to win 13 times.

As for Massa, he seems a bit Ralf Schumacher-ish, as in some days he's amazing and some days he's ordinary.

in that group I would put: Coulthard, Trulli, Fisichella, Sutil, and Barrichello.

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

iI don't think Speed beat him. I think he's a solid driver, not a superstar but good enough to keep the car on the track most of the time and get the car to the end without problems.

I know he crashed a coupe of times last season but he's been fairly good in his career so far.

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Since this a Sutil thread, comparing both drivers, what has Liuzzi done that Sutil hasn't?

I know Liuzzi didn't have a terrible career but he didn't do anything worth remembering either.

Also Liuzzi had his chance, Sutil is still "using" his one.

Yeah fair point. I started this thread to provoke a debate. We've got a good debate, and what I was trying to get across, is that Sutil is in danger of becoming a liability if he carries on in this vein. I think a lot of people expected him to make less mistakes this year, but it's still early.

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

Yeah fair point. I started this thread to provoke a debate.-//- but it's still early.

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Yes too early for a meaningful debate! IMHO

I really don't think Sutil is a liability even if he is among the worst drivers in what is probably the highest quality grid we've seen. He's probably better than Nakajima at the moment.

Look, Fisi has always had a way of getting the maximum of inferior cars and underachieving in top-flight machinery. Remember in '04 when he was fantastic for Sauber and look who he routed that year - Massa. He also had a couple good years at Jordan. Sutil seems just a bit erratic at the moment, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Liuzzi later in the year. I think Liuzzi always had bad luck, his career was somwaht mismanaged by Red Bull, and he compared favorably to Vettel once the German wunderkind was brought in last season at Toro Rosso.

Agreed.

As I said, after the midpoint of the seasobn, then one can begin to have a debate about Sutil.

It may not be an encouraging start, but it is by no means a deathblow to his career. Honestly, by the same token,Vettel would be consideed in the same light...but we all knoe he's better than that too.

As to DC, I stand by my opinion.
he's had plenty of opportunities to shine and has done so modestly.

From what I've seen, Sutil doesnt seem to have really improved since the middle of last season, still a few mistakes but is now being put well and truly into the shade by Fisi, who tends to do that to every team mate he's had when in poor machinery (Button 01, Ralph Firman 03, Pantano/Glock 04). I've heard the FI team say that Sutil hasnt really worked hard enough since coming into F1 last year and maybe he hasnt picked up. This is surprising for someone that got a strong reputation for being a hard worker in F3 when he went to every race meeting knowing he was most likely going to be blown away by Hamilton.

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

iI don't think Speed beat him. I think he's a solid driver, not a superstar but good enough to keep the car on the track most of the time and get the car to the end without problems.

I know he crashed a coupe of times last season but he's been fairly good in his career so far.

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Liuzzis performances for a large part of his time at TR were just embarrassing. I don`t know how anyone can say he deserves another change. How many chances does he deserve then? 150?

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

1995- Williams - good car, but not as good as the Benetton. 8 podiums and first win.

2001- McLaren- Second best by a LONG WAY to Ferrari. DC is second in the championship while Hakkinen struggles. DC and Hakkinen get 2 wins each.

2004- McLaren- Bad car, then good car. McLaren struggle over first half of season, with DC getting the better of Kimi. then they get the new car and Kimi wins in belgium.

NOW, if we take all of Coulthard's seasons, the World Championship was only possible for him really in '98, 99 and maybe 2000. Then take away 4 seasons with Red Bull, 4 bad seasons with McLaren, and his rookie year, and there are only 95, 98, 99, 2000, 01 and 03 where he even had a chance of winning Grands Prix.

I'm not a huge Coulthard fan but I like him and think he has done very well to win 13 times.

As for Massa, he seems a bit Ralf Schumacher-ish, as in some days he's amazing and some days he's ordinary.

in that group I would put: Coulthard, Trulli, Fisichella, Sutil, and Barrichello.

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These are the parts that gave me the idea when I was reading your post, that the author of the post is clearly a teenager and what a surprise, a quick check your profile revealed me being right.

Did you watch the 1995 season? Of course you didn`t. Why post such things then that claim that Benetton was better than Williams in 1995, when it was clear to everyone that that wasn`t the case.

In 2000, it was again Schumi who made Ferrari be what it was and got them a deserved title. If DC hadn`t been a driver so much slower than Schumi, he could have competed, but despite the superiority of his car, he didn`t.

In 2001, the cars (Mclaren, Williams and Ferrari) were equal and Schumacher did to DC what Mike Tyson would do in a fight to you.

In 2004 DC could get near Kimi on very rare occasions, and was comparable in pace to him in 1-2 races.

I did watch the 1995 season actually but I don't remember everything about it as I was only 5. However it still doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about. When Schumacher wins the drivers' championship by 33 points and Benetton the constructors' by 25 it leads me to believe (quite fairly in my opinion) that Benetton had a better car. If not, then fair enough, but come on, I was 5 at the time, so it's only by looking at the results that I get an understanding of the seasons pre-1996.

Williams only won twice when Michael Schumacher finished the race. And when Hill finished the race, Schumacher won 5 times. This leads me to believe that the Benetton was better than the Williams. Even if I'm wrong about that, I'm still right about Coulthard's career and his Grand Prix winning opportunities. Even if the Williams was a better car in '95 he still won a Grand Prix in it.

I think it's a bit below the belt to dismiss my knowledge just because of my age. I know a damn sight more about F1 than you think I do regardless of how old I am. I wouldn't say that to anyone else so why should you say it to me? I'm just trying to give a fair and unbiased opinion on the situation.

You're right about 2000, but Hakkinen didn't beat Schumacher either, and he wasn't a bad driver was he?

In 2001 the cars were equal, but once the second half of the season came round Ferrari began to dominate. DC beat 'Tyson' in a couple of straight fights in 2001 at Interlagos and the A1 Ring.

In '04 McLaren only had 5 points after 7 races, and 4 of them were Coulthard's. Yes, Kimi scored more points in the end, but we're talking about a 34 year old up against a 24 year-old future World Champion. It's like comparing Schumi and Massa in '06 and saying that Massa was a disappointment for not beating Michael.

As for Liuzzi, well he had the odd bad performance, but he didn't disgrace himself, he saw off Scott Speed and did OK against Vettel, scoring 3 points in China. He may not be quite as fast as Sutil, but he has less of a tendency to throw the car into the scenery. If it was me I'd have put Klien in the car but there you go.

woody, I think you are quite bright, irrespective of age, and I teach teenagers for a living.

Now granted, they ARE American teenagers . . . :D

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

woody, I think you are quite bright, irrespective of age, and I teach teenagers for a living.

Now granted, they ARE American teenagers . . . :D

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Thanks I appreciate that mate. :)

I don't pretend to know everything, but regardless of whether or not I like a driver I always try to be fair.

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

I did watch the 1995 season actually but I don't remember everything about it as I was only 5. However it still doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about. When Schumacher wins the drivers' championship by 33 points and Benetton the constructors' by 25 it leads me to believe (quite fairly in my opinion) that Benetton had a better car.

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No. Hill and DC drove like idiots in 1995, Schumi was brilliant that season. Johnny Herbert, his teammate, was usually nowhere and he is the same guy who in equal cars was at least as fast as Mika Häkkinen.
In qualifying, DC and Hill usually were faster than MS (because they had much faster cars), but come raceday, Schumis brilliant tactics and relentless pace destroyed them and they made mistakes (Especially Hill)

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If not, then fair enough, but come on, I was 5 at the time, so it's only by looking at the results that I get an understanding of the seasons pre-1996.

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If you had watched the races in 1995, you would never even think about claiming that Benetton was better than Williams.

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Williams only won twice when Michael Schumacher finished the race. And when Hill finished the race, Schumacher won 5 times. This leads me to believe that the Benetton was better than the Williams. Even if I'm wrong about that, I'm still right about Coulthard's career and his Grand Prix winning opportunities. Even if the Williams was a better car in '95 he still won a Grand Prix in it.

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What you are ignoring is that Hill and DC were just good drivers, whereas in 1995 Schumacher was at his best ever form.
Why was Herbert unable to do anything with the Benetton?
Schumacher had a huge struggle, but he kept on track and overcame the disadvantage his difficult handling car caused him.

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You're right about 2000, but Hakkinen didn't beat Schumacher either, and he wasn't a bad driver was he?

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Häkkinen was a good driver, but he is overrated. If Schumacher had been in the McLaren and Häkkinen in the Ferrari, McLaren would have won the title with 3 races to go.

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In 2001 the cars were equal, but once the second half of the season came round Ferrari began to dominate. DC beat 'Tyson' in a couple of straight fights in 2001 at Interlagos and the A1 Ring.

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True, at Interlagos Schumacher drove one of his all time worst races and DC one of his alltime bests. But that was one race.
The car was equal the whole year, DC just made mistakes at crucial times and was too slow compared to Schumacher. When Häkkinen was on form, he showed a couple of times how great the car really was, but mostly he had already given up.

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In '04 McLaren only had 5 points after 7 races, and 4 of them were Coulthard's. Yes, Kimi scored more points in the end, but we're talking about a 34 year old up against a 24 year-old future World Champion. It's like comparing Schumi and Massa in '06 and saying that Massa was a disappointment for not beating Michael.

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The only reason DC had more points than Kimi was because kimi had car problems, Kimi was easily much faster.

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As for Liuzzi, well he had the odd bad performance, but he didn't disgrace himself, he saw off Scott Speed and did OK against Vettel, scoring 3 points in China. He may not be quite as fast as Sutil, but he has less of a tendency to throw the car into the scenery. If it was me I'd have put Klien in the car but there you go.

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No, Liuzzi did nothing remarkable against Speed, they both sucked bigtime.
Vettel destroyed Liuzzi once he came to the team and I don`t rate Vettel that highly.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Vettel destroyed Liuzzi once he came to the team and I don`t rate Vettel that highly.

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In the wet Vettel was better, and wasn't Liuzzi quicker than him in the dry?

Barely 'destroyed' in any case.

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

1994- Williams-Renault - good car, but DC was a rookie and shared his seat with Senna and Mansell during the season.

1995- Williams - good car, but not as good as the Benetton. 8 podiums and first win.

1996- McLaren-Mercedes - team score less than 50 points, podiums hard to come by.

1997- McLaren - decent car, team fights for good results. DC wins in Oz and Monza. Hakkinen wins in Jerez by default.

1998- McLaren - Excellent car. DC wins at Imola, and finishes second 6 times. Hakkinen wins the championship.

1999- McLaren - Excellent car, DC wins at Silverstone and Spa. Hakkinen wins the championship after battle with M Schumacher and Irvine.

2000- McLaren- Very good car, DC wins at Silverstone, Monaco and Magny-Cours. Hakkinen just misses out on the title to Michael Schumacher.

2001- McLaren- Second best by a LONG WAY to Ferrari. DC is second in the championship while Hakkinen struggles. DC and Hakkinen get 2 wins each.

2002- McLaren- Car not up there with Ferrari, and just behind Williams. Paired with Raikkonen, and beats him.

2003- McLaren- Good car, but essentially tweaked 2002 model. Kimi loses out by 2 points to Schumacher, but only wins once. Coulthard also wins once, in Australia.

2004- McLaren- Bad car, then good car. McLaren struggle over first half of season, with DC getting the better of Kimi. then they get the new car and Kimi wins in belgium.

2005- Red Bull-Cosworth- decent midfield car. Scores 24 points, as he did in 2004, and outperforms new team-mates Liuzzi and Klien.

2006- Red Bull-Ferrari- similar to 2005 for Red Bull. Coulthard finishes on the podium at Monaco, and scores 16 points. Klien is dropped to make way for Doornbos.

2007- Red Bull-Renault.- DC paired with Mark Webber. Both men are even for the most part, although DC scores more points as both RBR's suffer with reliabilty.

2008- Red Bull-Renault- Webber gets 2 early points finishes, while DC causes 2 early accidents. Webber has the edge in qualifying, and the races so far in 08 but it's early days.


NOW, if we take all of Coulthard's seasons, the World Championship was only possible for him really in '98, 99 and maybe 2000. Then take away 4 seasons with Red Bull, 4 bad seasons with McLaren, and his rookie year, and there are only 95, 98, 99, 2000, 01 and 03 where he even had a chance of winning Grands Prix.

I'm not a huge Coulthard fan but I like him and think he has done very well to win 13 times.

As for Massa, he seems a bit Ralf Schumacher-ish, as in some days he's amazing and some days he's ordinary.

in that group I would put: Coulthard, Trulli, Fisichella, Sutil, and Barrichello.

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Have just joined this forum and tried to refrain from posting, but have given in on this one. I am a DC fan and fully agree with your post. Credit where credits due, DC has clocked up a lot of wins and WDC points compared to many other drivers. I was always of the opinion that he could have been WDC in 2000 or 2001 had McLaren been more reliable - they suffered an awful lot of breakdowns during those years. Accidents - anyone can have them

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Originally Posted by woody2goody

1994- Williams-Renault - good car, but DC was a rookie and shared his seat with Senna and Mansell during the season.

1995- Williams - good car, but not as good as the Benetton. 8 podiums and first win.

1996- McLaren-Mercedes - team score less than 50 points, podiums hard to come by.

1997- McLaren - decent car, team fights for good results. DC wins in Oz and Monza. Hakkinen wins in Jerez by default.

1998- McLaren - Excellent car. DC wins at Imola, and finishes second 6 times. Hakkinen wins the championship.

1999- McLaren - Excellent car, DC wins at Silverstone and Spa. Hakkinen wins the championship after battle with M Schumacher and Irvine.

2000- McLaren- Very good car, DC wins at Silverstone, Monaco and Magny-Cours. Hakkinen just misses out on the title to Michael Schumacher.

2001- McLaren- Second best by a LONG WAY to Ferrari. DC is second in the championship while Hakkinen struggles. DC and Hakkinen get 2 wins each.

2002- McLaren- Car not up there with Ferrari, and just behind Williams. Paired with Raikkonen, and beats him.

2003- McLaren- Good car, but essentially tweaked 2002 model. Kimi loses out by 2 points to Schumacher, but only wins once. Coulthard also wins once, in Australia.

2004- McLaren- Bad car, then good car. McLaren struggle over first half of season, with DC getting the better of Kimi. then they get the new car and Kimi wins in belgium.

2005- Red Bull-Cosworth- decent midfield car. Scores 24 points, as he did in 2004, and outperforms new team-mates Liuzzi and Klien.

2006- Red Bull-Ferrari- similar to 2005 for Red Bull. Coulthard finishes on the podium at Monaco, and scores 16 points. Klien is dropped to make way for Doornbos.

2007- Red Bull-Renault.- DC paired with Mark Webber. Both men are even for the most part, although DC scores more points as both RBR's suffer with reliabilty.

2008- Red Bull-Renault- Webber gets 2 early points finishes, while DC causes 2 early accidents. Webber has the edge in qualifying, and the races so far in 08 but it's early days.


NOW, if we take all of Coulthard's seasons, the World Championship was only possible for him really in '98, 99 and maybe 2000. Then take away 4 seasons with Red Bull, 4 bad seasons with McLaren, and his rookie year, and there are only 95, 98, 99, 2000, 01 and 03 where he even had a chance of winning Grands Prix.

I'm not a huge Coulthard fan but I like him and think he has done very well to win 13 times.

As for Massa, he seems a bit Ralf Schumacher-ish, as in some days he's amazing and some days he's ordinary.

in that group I would put: Coulthard, Trulli, Fisichella, Sutil, and Barrichello.

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Have just joined this forum and tried to refrain from posting, but have given in on this one. I am a DC fan and fully agree with your post. Credit where credits due, DC has clocked up a lot of wins and WDC points compared to many other drivers. I was always of the opinion that he could have been WDC in 2000 or 2001 had McLaren been more reliable - they suffered an awful lot of breakdowns during those years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Liuzzis performances for a large part of his time at TR were just embarrassing. I don`t know how anyone can say he deserves another change. How many chances does he deserve then? 150?



These are the parts that gave me the idea when I was reading your post, that the author of the post is clearly a teenager and what a surprise, a quick check your profile revealed me being right.

Did you watch the 1995 season? Of course you didn`t. Why post such things then that claim that Benetton was better than Williams in 1995, when it was clear to everyone that that wasn`t the case.

In 2000, it was again Schumi who made Ferrari be what it was and got them a deserved title. If DC hadn`t been a driver so much slower than Schumi, he could have competed, but despite the superiority of his car, he didn`t.

In 2001, the cars (Mclaren, Williams and Ferrari) were equal and Schumacher did to DC what Mike Tyson would do in a fight to you.

In 2004 DC could get near Kimi on very rare occasions, and was comparable in pace to him in 1-2 races.

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I don't think it's a matter of age, it's a matter of bias towards your favouriye driver.

To me the 2001 season, had one dominant team: Ferrari, one fast team that promised more for the next season but wasn't still on the right pace : Williams and another fast team that was starting their debacle with reliability: McLaren

I agree with this view, but just to make it clear, DC is not my favourite driver in Formula One, but I support him because he has gained respect from me as a seasoned veteran, who has still had considerable success.

Ferrari were always fighting for the win in 2001, whereas McLaren and Williams almost took it in turns to fight Ferrari. Both occasionally beat Ferrari, but overall Ferrari were always there and that's what made them dominant in the end.

I think a very similar situation could be unfolding in the 2008 season right now.

Meh?! The topic was meant to be mainly about Sutil and also Liuzzi, so what is the discussion about DC doing here? :p :

But if I'm trying to join that OT discussion, then I actually don't consider 2001 a 'boring' season like 2002, actually I think it was quite exciting (maybe even more exciting than for example 2000) when we try to rate the excitement of races. On most circuits Ferrari was not alone, but they had a strong rival. But what helped them to dominate points-wise was that firstly their rivals on different circuits were not the same - it was either McLaren or Williams (latter mainly on fast circuits) as they were capable of challenging for the win only on several tracks, not throughout the season. Secondly both McLaren and especially Williams were quite unreliable, which cost them a lot of points.

About Adrian Sutil. Yeh, he has been quite highly rated and on several occasions last year he even showed some serious promise (Spa, Fuji), but also the season included a huge amount of driver errors and as Spyker was the slowest car and he didn't have a proven team-mate, then giving an accurate rating to him was really complicated.

At the moment he doesn't seem to live up to the hype, but on the other hand he hasn't had a proper race yet either (on all three occasions retired early) and maybe his race pace is better than quali-pace (where he has been outpaced comfortably by Fisi). Let's wait until midseason and hope he can have some problemfree races too before making a decisive judgement. If he gets constantly trashed by Fisi until midseason, then Liuzzi could be seriously considered for the second half. Tonio is another driver, whose level is a bit unclear (no proper team-mate comparison + uncompetitive machinery), but I guess he may give Fisi some serious competition. And by the way, whatever the outcome of Vettel vs Bourdais battle will be, we can't judge their level accurately either.

I'd raised the same questiion whether Sutil was a liability to the team because he was involved in many on track incidents. He managed to outpace his teammate & retain his drive eventually. If he's able to match Fisi's pace by mid season then I think he be retained until the end of the year. Heikki managed to bounce back after a dismal start & ulitmately earned him a spot in Mclaren, I hope Sutil can emulate Heikki's feat & earn himself a seat in Honda