Who would be the better man, Sebastien Loeb or Tommi Makienen?
This is like the Senna/Schumacher question of rallying.
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Who would be the better man, Sebastien Loeb or Tommi Makienen?
This is like the Senna/Schumacher question of rallying.
Loeb's achievements are stunning, but the WRC isn't as competitive now as it was when Makinen was winning championships. I find it impossible to answer such a question with any degree of certainty. I mean, who is to say that Walter Röhrl wasn't better than either? The fact that he drove in an era when not being able to win every single type of event on the calendar doesn't make him inferior.
Good question!
But it is impossible to answer. The WRC is so much different today than it was 10 years ago. However, Loeb has consistency that seems to make him stand out!
Neither. Tommi won only with Mitsubishi, and Loeb only with Citroen. Kankkunen is your man. He won the WRC 4 times with 3 different manufacturers.
Well that's my opinion anyway.
but kankunnen never could drive well enough on tarmac and was constantly outdriven by his team mates (mostly in the later years).
I'm sure Loeb could win in any car in any era but he does drive extremely straight and he looks a little uncomfortable when a more sideways style is necessary (as it was in Tommi’s era), and we all saw how much trouble Tommi (and Colin, and Richard and Carlos) had coming to grips with the new style of WRCars and the required no sideways tarmac-esque driving style.
Who would be better in the same equipment in the same era at the peak of their game? We’ll never know...
I agree and he would have had over 30 WRC victories if there were not been any team orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM
Yes, the lack of tarmac pace unfortunately counts Kankkunen out as far as I'm concerned. This is not to dispute his brilliance, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by duff
And remember he won the last Group B WRC in 1986, then Group A in 1987. First win in Safari 1985, final win in 1999 1,000 Lakes. Drove all kinds of cars, and all types of Rallies. Loeb has only done the short sprint type events.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
And he never complained about the car's handling. Even if the car was a dissaster he still said in interviews "the car is perfect". You don't find that kind of spirit nowadays. Now if something is a little bit wrong with the car the pilot is allready complaining. In my opinion he was certainly one of the greatest drivers ever. :s pin:
Both are great drivers, but if you talk about the great driver in the post Gr.B era, Sainz deserves to be compared with Tommi and Loeb. OK, Carlos only has 2 titles but it's not just the number of titles which decide who is the greatest.
Whoa, your name is FIA, trying to open a can of worms and bring in the loeb fans?
Out of all the onboard videos I have ever seen, I have not seen anyone having the attacking attidude like Makinen, except McRae. He is also very good with tactics and knowing the right time to attack and takes a large chunk of time off the competition (portugal 2001). Also won Safari at first try I believe.
I should also add that he is definitely one of the greats. Nobody has made driving a car on gravel look so natural and easy. He never seemed to be flustered behind the wheel, even when he was heading for the scenery.Quote:
Originally Posted by duff
I agree that Carlos should be thrown into the argument (50% podiums!), and also McRae (incredible speed and talent). But lets not forget Marcus either, if he had started his works career as young as some of the guys do now (I think he was 31?) he would surely have a lot more wins and possibly another title or two.
The list (and the argument) could go on, but the record books will show Loeb as the greatest - at least for a fair while to come.
Both are among the best ever but I would say Makinen, because he had a lot more contenders to fight against. But I rate KKK (and a couple of more) much higher than both of them :D
You mean Argentina '99? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
Each era has it's own champion, you can't compare it. I'm following WRC since 1985 but never compared two drivers. Makkinen was a class on it's own then, Loeb is now.
My first thought when reading this post was both Loeb and Makkinen won their titles with the same manufacturer. This IMO is the most objective test of a drivers ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by TKM
That is true too. I would always tend to rate someone like Kankkunen over such as Loeb for that very reason, but I feel that Loeb would probably be successful on longer events too, because he does seem mechanically sympathetic to the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Carlos and Tommi are only several hundred meters away from having three titles each.Quote:
Originally Posted by koko0703
Number of titles is somewhat shaky grounds for comparison. Or does anyone think that Tommi is four times better driver than McRae, their titles being four to one in Tommi's favour (but McRae having one WRC win more than Tommi)?
If diversity is the gauge, then the single time champion Hannu Mikkola is your choice. He is the only driver who has won WRC events with five different makes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang
One guy who was fast as hell on any surface was Henri Toivonen, as he was coming into his own he was lightning fast, he was cut short unfortunately, however had he continued he would have turned into the most famous driver of all time I feel.
As has already been said this is the Senna/Schumacher question of rallying - both great drivers but from different "eras"...
Makinen isn't even worthy to carry Loebs spare tyre....
A better comparison would be Loeb and Kankkunen.
And he was pretty good on tarmac at times, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
(Shame he crashed his Mazda on the 1988 RAC, otherwise it would have been six makes.)
True, but at most times he was dribbled by his own mistakes. Only at Lancia did he perform more consistent. Undoubtly he would have been a champion, though I would have guessed him to retire at an earlier stage, given his physical conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCfan
But like many said, a Tommi/Seb comparison is unworthy to make. I agree with many that Kankkunen should be rated above these two. Let alone his titles and victories, he was a very consistent driver and never really complained when things got thougher. Like DonJippo said, he could have won more if it wasn't for teamorders (for example Monte '87). Even scoring points with Hyundai up until 2002 says something. And count it or not, Juha was someone with a true character, which is a thing I miss in most drivers these days.
But at the end of the day, I don't believe in rating someone as best driver ever. There are just too many factors that make it impossibile to say.
We all have a favourite of course although when you sit back and think about choosing one driver, it is impossible. I read just after I posted above "Mikkola" then i thought, damn how can you put one driver over another, Toivonen over Mikkola or even the other way around. Both were fantastic but in such different ways/cars...
Loeb VS Makinen - It's hard/almost impossible to compare them.
Since this has drifted into "greatest rally driver of all time", it seems too many are too young to understand that it was Kankkunen's mentor, Timo Makinen who was for a long time the driver all other top drivers acknowledged as faster than them. I do not belive that particular status has been achieved by any other driver since. Henri Toivonen might have made it if he had lived - he was, from my direct experience, a "difficult" character in the same mould as Timo, after all.
As far as numbers are concerned, then Loeb is the pick :
4 times Champion, 38 wins, best % of wins vs Starts, 17 different rallies won, that's 4 more than the second best : Sainz, and last, the perfect balance of 50% of his wins on tarmac and 50% on loose surfaces which betters by far all of the fantastic past champions.
But, like said different eras... and no comparison with F1, ain't no such different surfaces.
I think it'd be more interesting to determine an ultimate top ranking.
And who cares if whether or not one won his 2 titles with a 206WRC or with 2, 3, 4 different cars or took 95.8% of his wins in a Mitsubishi GPA or 100% in a Citroën ? That's BS excuses. :p :
difficult to choose :D
but if i have to choose one of them is going to be Tommi
the reason is way more spectacular than Loeb.
and the only finn with a ss attack could beat every tarmac expert.
Loeb can not do it in gravel :D
I'm not going to answer this question, it can't be done. The mechanical side has to much an impact. The cars are so strong nowadays, yet the rallies so short. Mechanical failure is far less an issue then in the old days. Also the amount of rallies driven in a year is far greater. So easier to rack up big numbers. Not that's not a great achievement by Loeb. But its like M.Schumacher when asked if it meant that he was better than the great Fangio. You just cannot compare the two.
But for me any of the greatest will always be one that had to nurture his car when needed, drive flat out when needed, drive at night, and sadly in todays WRC that is no longer the case. So sorry Mr. Loeb you will never be the greatest.
:up: to all of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nenukknak
Thats my take on it too.. totaly different way of driving these modern active centre diff cars.. they reward smooth circuit race car style driving where as before pre-active diff, the balancing of the cars all had to be achieved manually by weight transfer and as you say Duff.. precisely the reason why many (but not all) of the previous generation of drivers suffered, though I'd say Carlos faired better than most.Quote:
Originally Posted by duff
Also Carlos got the record for rally wins when there was only 8 rounds to the WRC. Loeb got his record over the years there was 16 rounds to it.
Take Sèb to the old ages of WRC without so much technology around and we'll see
yes yes....a few years back it was the active diffs that made him fast....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalo
You forgot to take your medicine (again)!Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
it is funny how some people on this forum can be offensive and when you give them a shot of their own medicine your post gets deleted
saying a four time world champion isn't even worthy to carry Loebs spare tyre is just plain rude and shows how some live in a universe of their own...
Dear friend, this is a free forum where everyone has the right to criticise any drivers...and you are not allowed to insult them for that. Make sure you remember that !Quote:
Originally Posted by janez l.
i didn't read your comment....if it was aiming at me i wouldn't mind seeing it and i wouldn't also understand why you would be insulted because of my comments to another driver and not yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by janez l.
I stand by my word and i think that Makinen is a numbers king and nothing more...if it wasn;t for the insane favouritism he had at mitsubishi he would be nowhere......and he showed that when he moved into a winning team with a capable 2nd driver for his first time in his life...he was beaten into retirment !!!!
How could you say that Makinen is less then Loeb? Loeb is driving for the same team in many years!Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
If you say Makinens World Championship is nothing or less worth, because he is beaten by other team mates when he skipped Mitsu. for Subaru, then you couldn't say Loeb is better.
First Loeb has be proven to be fast in other WRC Team. If he is fast in another WRCar, you have a good argument. For now, it is really bad.
You lay your argument on very unstable foundations my friend... One could argue the same of Loeb being Citroens golden boy and his achievements as a number king due to the number of events in the current WRC callendar. The only thing missing is his move to another team.. should be interesting to see what the future brings.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
The fact remains that the WRC then was far more challenging in terms of the number of elite drivers back then, to insult Tomi in such a way is also an insult to all of them.