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Not until the cars are built way more for performance, and quickness!!
And that won't make Indycar look very good in those worldly road racing enthusiasts eyes.....
The cars need to be a handful to drive.......
Are they really going to have power assisted steering?? If so.....Hideous!!
My opinion of course.....
I still have hope that everything turns out the way open wheel was meant to be!!
I honestly don't care. F1 isn't the aim of american open wheel racing. If someone wants to go on the F1 track, there are plenty of feeder series for that. The days being hijacked by foreign road racers and fans are over.
Why should anyone care whether the guys and gals of the IRL make it to F1. Only two or three teams per year even matter in Formula One. The racing except for maybe a couple of cars - is not even competitive. And let's not even get into the issue of "team orders". I'm tired of all the IRL bashing. Let's see what happens with the IRL now with unification. No one cares whether NASCAR drivers cross the pond. Let's see whether IndyCar can reestablish its own image. Let F1 do what they do.
Agreed..... the real question is... will anyone in F1 ever make it to IndyCar now that they have to be proficient oval racers as well? Mansell, Fittipaldi and Piquet ? We will never see drivers in F1 with the prowess to tackle AOWR again. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
I second that. If you want F1 feeder series, watch GP 2. IndyCar is different and should be different.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
I don't know. The breed of F1 has changed in the last 20 years and not for the better. What you basically have now is nobility on four wheels. They won't touch a car unless everything is perfectly to their liking.
With the exception of JPM and Kimi. Kimi, I think, drove even snowmobiles.
And he won :DQuote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Maybe?!Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
F1 isn't the aim. The aim of AOWR is to make ITSELF the aim for aspiring drivers from around the world.
I think everyone has properly dismissed the post of the thread starter. And with many good reasons. I agree with all of them. The idea that everyone in motorsports wants to be an F1 driver is a pre-supposed fact not in evidence. Just isn't true to start with and I don't know why I'm supposed to care to end with.
Right. That's NASCAR now.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Quote:
Originally Posted by 994ever
It's only NASCAR if you want the most money, not if you want to participate in the most challenging form of auto racing.
That's the funniest joke I've heard in a while!Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
Sincerely,
Juan Pablo Montoya
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Only because you couldn't make a living in the open wheel ranks because of the strike stupidity. Unfortunately its gotten so bad that you make more money running in the back or even missing cup races than you did winning an open wheel race other than the Indy 500. Montoya is in cup because he wants the challenge. The rest are there pretty reluctantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by 994ever
right and if you think JPM did it for the prestige and challenge of racing heavy coupes and sedans around high banked ovals you're really farther off the cliff than you realize . $$$$$$$Quote:
Originally Posted by 994ever
it's the difference between fighter jets and cargo/passenger planes... which one do all the pilots in WANT to fly ??? and which ones do they NEED to fly ???
one gives the thrills, the other pays the bills $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Look, I admire your loyalty to Indycar, but your position that it is the most challenging racing in the world defies logic, experience, and the comments of many, many drivers. I don't understand how anyone who has watched as many IRL races as you presumably have, and all those countless cockpit shots of endless 100% throttle and minimal steering input could think that, quite frankly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
Sure they might go to NASCAR for money, but that doesn't automatically mean that money is the only redeeming quality of it. You're probably the kind of person who thinks that a band or recording artist automatically sucks if they have a major record deal.
If Bourdais caught F1's eye from the somewhat talent thin fields of CCWS then I think AOW could have drivers in F1 in the near future and I think we should care. F1 is BIG and if our drivers can drive there then we'll attract fans from the second most watched sport in the WORLD and more importantly cash in the form of sponsors!
I've never thought of AOW as a feeder series and I don't believe, as many F1 snobs do, that the 22 best drivers in the world are located in there. In the early to mid-nineties I thought half of each field (F1, CART) would have given you the most talented open wheelers around. As the popularity of CART grew it was close to the point of being considered an equal alternative to F1! The idea of the next Clarke or Fangio choosing to drive down Lakeshore Blvd. instead of Eau Rouge does matter to me. We may have some of the best drivers over here but I want them all. :)
As for drivers who are at the top of their game, whether it be IMSA or ICS or NASCAR and how they regard F1. Let's just say this. If Ferrari rang them up and said, "We're interest in you. We'll be doing some testing in Monza next week. Would you like to drive our car?" I don't think too many folks would turn them down.
I think it will be several years before the IRL is able to attract the level of talent that F1 is looking for. GP2 is a better training ground for an aspiring F1 driver than the IRL. But assuming someone can form a deal, there could be a GP2 driver coming over that could continue his development, and then return to F1. But these days, so much of the "home grown" talent is going toward stock car racing... and why wouldn't it? Other than maybe bankrupting your daddy's company and turning you into a beggar, open wheel hasn't provided much of a return over the past decade or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
The car (F1 has power steering too) and courses being driven probably affect an F1 team's desire to look hard at a driver. But more than that, it seems to have more to do with who he has beaten: the level of competition. Winning the GP2 title against a weak field doesn't seem to do as much for a driver as coming in 2nd against a strong field. I'm just going from memory on how various F3000 and GP2 runners have done over the past several years. But that's what CART could offer, and that's generally what the IRL and CCWS could not (cannot) offer. At some point, if this rebuilding is successful, that may change.
So while I agree with your point, I also agree with those who say that the goal of the IRL should be to build itself into a respectable series, that drivers see as a destination, not just a stepping stone. The problem is, that's been the goal of the IRL since its beginning. And thus far, not much progress has been made. Taking over some assets from the failed Champ Car series probably won't do anything in that area, though it probably clears up some confusion in the sport overall.
If the IRL develops a better plan than it's had in the past, and actually exectutes it, maybe we'll see the day when the better open wheel drivers aren't having dreams (and fantasies) of going to NASCAR, ALMS, F1 or where ever.
Well, I hope everything works out for Indycar in open wheel.
I hope as promised, Champcar and it's history will be embraced in Indycar.
It would be nice to see Indycar develop into the premier open wheel racing on the planet.
But, for these things to happen they will have to start with the car....
IMO
You mean WRC, globally recognised as the most challenging of all motorsport. There's not much challenge to full throttle circle tracking I'm afraid. Unless you slide around the corners because its DIRT!Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
Back to subject, there are a few aspiring drivers with an eye on F1 who used US OWR as a stepping stone.
Jimi, do you mmmm know much about F1 steering?Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
rh
Just like in CCWS with the DP-01, the problems that the IRL is facing are a lot deeper than just choosing a snazzy looking chassis and cool sounding engine.
This so called "unification" does not end the $ Catch-22 that AOWR has been in for almost ten years now. IMO, the trick is how to decrease costs without affecting perceived value. And conversely, if anything is introduced which increases costs, will it increase perceived value fast enough to convince outside interests to invest in the series and its teams?
I remain in wait & see mode, eating my popcorn... taking in the show. But I've yet to hear or see anything that convinces me that the above Catch-22 has been figured out. The IRL couldn't figure it out before. CCWS couldn't figure it out. And I see nothing about this latest deal which addresses it, other than larger and larger subsidies to keep sponsor starved teams alive. As long as the money and desire are there, you can make that work forever. CCWS ran out of desire. Maybe George has enough money and desire to keep on spending til the day comes when the series can stand on its own. I dunno. But no, I don't see Patrick Head, Flava Flavio or Ron Dennis attending IRL test sessions, looking for talent, anytime soon.
Popcorn, anyone?
Jeff Gordon could marry and divorce a super model wife a year. Even throwing in child support, he'd have enough money to live a rock star lifestyle the rest of his life. The same is true of Dale Earnhardt, Jr. and Tony Stewart. Jimmie Johnson and Carl Edwards are getting close, I'd say. But I believe that the main reason that they devote so much of their time, and make so many personal sacrifices, is because they see winning the Cup as a great accomplishment in the world of motorsports.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
They're not going to race for free or give the money back, but money aside, I think you'd have an incredibly hard time convincing the sharp end of the NASCAR Sprint Cup grid that they're not already in the most challenging form of auto racing.
This isn't about beating down or denigrating the IRL. But just like with the CCWS fans, who convinced themselves that most of CCWS's problems were being caused by Bernie Ecclestone scheming and plotting against the series 23 out of 24 hours a day, sometimes reality is just staring at you from the mirror.
I'll take some popcorn, Jag, with butter.
The idea that F1 is considered the ultimate for a John Force or a Steve Kinser or a Jeff Gordon or a Nicky Hayden is full of what comes out of the northbound end of a southbound horse. They do their own thing, and WANT to do their own thing.
In the past, Richard Petty chose to win 200 NASCAR Cup races and not ever try an Indy car. Mario wanted to go to F1 and did and won a championship. Foyt didn't want to go. And didn't.
So Bourdais whined at us for four years about wanting to go and people were keeping him from doing it and not giving him a chance, etc., etc. Bourdais won four championships. Last I looked, he was 18th on this weekend's grid. Bully for him.
Sorry, my bad on F1 having power assisted steering.
I guess maybe Champcar is the most challenging car to drive for the drivers. It wasn't just a beautiful car with a turbo. The drivers who were veterans as well as the new drivers coming in had great things to say about how Champcar was a heavier and more powerful car, that required alot of muscling around.
That's what I want to see......
That's all cool Jimi, and it's adjustable lol. BTW a NASCAR car is heavier and more powerful than a DP01 ;P
Hey all incoming drivers love the (Put Series Name Here) cars because they have so much (choose 1; power, downforce, stopping. cornering) and are a (choose 1; real, true, big, awesome, ) challenge to (choose1 ; stop, steer, turn, pit).
Ya know I like Modigliani's and I think real expressionists have long noses on their subjects :)
rh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop-98
wha??
I'm with you, Indycool. There are drivers who are where they want to be and they feel no desire to do anything else. I don't expect to see Michael Schumacher do Le Mans or Indy. Years from now, he might. But I doubt it. Lauda and Prost didn't venture far from F1 either. But some others did.
What I'm getting at is that there used to be something of a two way street between AOWR and F1. Once upon a time in the west, it wasn't just AOWR drivers jonesing to do F1. And it wasn't just also ran F1 drivers trying to find refuge in America. You've been a fan for as long or longer than I've been. You know of Jimmy Clarke coming to Indy. Mario Andretti returning from Europe with his WDC crown, to do Indy again & again. Emerson Fittipaldi. Nelson Piquet. Nigel Mansell. Ayrton Senna's Firebird test. The hands down, no argument, cream of the crop of the day once considered driving here. Now? Crickets chirping. Now, hardly anyone wants to come here. And the bus leaving town is packed. Timo Glock and Christian Klien would take a beating (and a biting) from Mike Tyson before coming over (or back).
Jeff Gordon, like Petty, is exactly where he wants to be. And Tony Stewart, like Foyt, will do as he pleases. But where is Mika Hakkinen? Where is Juan Pablo Montoya? Where is Jacques Villeneuve? All I'm saying is, there was a time when drivers of this caliber would have seen a return to AOWR at least as a realistic and viable option. But Wheldon, Franchitti, Hornish and Bourdais wanted to get on the bus out of town last year in the worst way. If the bus had had four seats, instead of three, all would be somewhere else now.
So the mission is (I guess) to build something that homegrown talent will aspire to. And maybe later, others will be drawn to it as well. That's where I admire NASCAR. They've found a magic formula which pits new faces against seasoned, accomplished, well known veterans. And people go for that! To truly be a somebody you've got to beat a big somebody. Jeff Gordon is who he is because he beat Dale Earnhardt, Dale Jarrett and Rusty Wallace. And Jimmie Johnson? He beat Gordon in a great showdown last year. Bourdais had to win four titles in a row to get an STR drive? How sad... but who did he beat? Same with Dario and Hornish. Lucky for Hornish he has some Penske points to keep him in the game. AOWR let too many of its legends go away before the newbies could rough them up and make a name for themselves, IMO. Now, the job will be harder.
Popcorn good. Kernels bad. Don't tell my doc I'm using real butter.
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-imag...modigliani.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
rh
Uh, judging by the struggles of JPM and the rest of the open-wheel guys, I'm saying that NASCAR is indeed challenging. It might be challenging in a different way, but there is indeed a skill set required for NASCAR that is required and difficult to obtain.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagocrewIRL
NASCAR of today is so much like CART of 1990-1995 that it's eerie....
IMO, the answer to your Catch22 is not to decrease the cost but increase the money. But IMO, it will never happen in a spec series. Lowering cost will only make a below average series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
They won't come to a spec series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Increase the money by opening up the rules that encourages manufactures to compete at a technological level .. and then here comes the money. Then here comes the drivers. Once the manufactures and drivers are back then here comes the sponsors. That's the Reaganomics of AOWR. IMO.
Yes, but increasing the money how? They're struggling to lower costs because $ are not forthcoming from independent sources. It was the pouring of money down a deep rathole that (I think) caused Kalkhoven to say, enuf!Quote:
Originally Posted by nanders
I don't know that they care about how spec a series is. Maybe they do, but I've never heard any of them mention it. But I don't think any of them want to participate in something that's perceived as less than top shelf.Quote:
They won't come to a spec series.
Supply side racing? I like it already! :DQuote:
Increase the money by opening up the rules that encourages manufactures to compete at a technological level .. and then here comes the money. Then here comes the drivers. Once the manufactures and drivers are back then here comes the sponsors. That's the Reaganomics of AOWR. IMO.
For years I've argued on here that lowering costs does not address the issue of decreased perceived value. So what do people keep talking about and trying to fix? Well, costs, of course. I'll admit right now that I don't know exactly what needs to be done to fix this well & truly f'ed up machine. But I do know this: once you cut costs to the point that the product is affected, your problems will multiply, as your customers will abandon a "cheap" product. People want good value for their money, or they want to make a good deal. But has anyone heard a person brag that they bought a cheap house, a cheap car, a cheap watch, etc.??? And if you're the governor of New York, you want to be able to tell your pals at the old age home in 30 years that you wouldn't even settle for cheap... well, never mind.
I don't know that just opening up the rules is going to cause struggling automotive companies to pour tens of millions into a form of racing which is watched by few and followed closely by even fewer. But I agree that just "staying the course" (to quote a modern day fiscally liberal neocon) is not the right way to go. I suggested strapping Paris Hilton and Britney Spears to the noses of the top two cars every race. For some reason, no one took me seriously. Even though I bet my house that the ratings would be up 100%... garonteed!!!
None of the cool series where manufactures and sponsors are involved today are spec series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Manufactures are telling the Hydrogen Electric Racing Federation they like their concept and they want to be involved. Tony George has entertained the HERF. It seems to me that building a rules package for a technology the manufactures are saying they want to be involved in, wouldn't be the dumbest thing you could do. Indy was one of the major places where technology was developed, but recently they have lost their way. They have lost their way while F1, NASCAR and ALMS still all have manufactures competing at a technical level. hmmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Isn't it funny that that's the series' where all the money is at? When I hear arguments that say "AOWR doesn't need the competition at the technology level," I'm thinking that's what they have now and it ain't working but the series' that are competing at the technical level have it all going for them. What's that thing Homer Simpson says? doh!
Call me shallow Hal, but if they had a "Nopi Chick" type deal going it would also bring people to the track. No Nopi Chicks needed at Surfers Paradise :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
I agree, Jag. All those ideas hafta run their course as something grows. I don't think a spec series, right now, when the sport is trying to stabilize itself, is a bad deal and might give the smaller teams a breath of air until or unless the popularity grows.
Assuming it WILL grow, opening up the formula will be a step down the line as interest from manufacturers might build. Toyota and Honda spent a lot of money when they were in CART and the IRL. Only Honda is there now. Yes, the series can use some other engine manufacturers. But until THEY say "yes" to something, there's no point.
As for drivers wanting to do it, "build it and they will come." The melding of the series is a slow roast, not a microwave.
EDIT: nanders, NASCAR still uses carburetors. So much for high tech.
They have engineering budgets 10 times any IndyCar team. They are integrating F1 technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
In the following article you will find a former CART/F1/now in NASCAR engineer explaining why NASCAR is winning in that regard.
PS: IC I wasn't even making a argument saying NASCAR was high tech ..... but they are, even with that inconvenient little carburator.
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no116.html
F1 will always be regarded as the 'pinnacle' in open wheel racing regardless - if drivers from this series get a chance then great, good luck to them. Is Bourdais wishing he was back in Indycar now the series have merged ? Probably not. But all the best for todays opening race starting from 18th - pretty sad for a guy of his ability...
Most all series are "spec" now to some degree. And even F1 and NASCAR Sprint Cup are a lot more "spec" than they used to be: mandated COT shell in NASCAR and the McLaren ECU in F1. But I understand your point. In the case of CCWS and the IRL, I'd say it's a case of being like most of us guys: we date one girl at a time only because we can't get a second girl interested. I've tried "opening up the specs" too. But all it ever got me was a drink thrown in my direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by nanders
No argument from me on that one. I think it's a great concept that has a future. But when? Last year's conference on the Hydrogen 500 attracted most everybody who was anybody in the automotive world. There was a lot of back slapping and nodding of heads. The first race is set for May 2009. It's a go... except for the fact that no one seems to be working (seriously) on a car yet. I still think that it will happen. But I understand that Peter DeLorenzo finally realizes that his initial goal and timeframe were a bit overambitious, to say the least.Quote:
Manufactures are telling the Hydrogen Electric Racing Federation they like their concept and they want to be involved. Tony George has entertained the HERF. It seems to me that building a rules package for a technology the manufactures are saying they want to be involved in, wouldn't be the dumbest thing you could do.
Emotion and the desire to settle old debts came into play. Other series kept their eyes on the prize, and they've been rewarded with success. IRL and CCWS thought that one would be rewarded simply by out lasting the other. I think many are in for a big surprise on that one. Manufacturers have to believe that their money will be spent wisely within a stable environment. Maybe someday they'll get it back together.Quote:
Indy was one of the major places where technology was developed, but recently they have lost their way. They have lost their way while F1, NASCAR and ALMS still all have manufactures competing at a technical level. hmmmm.
The more competition the better, I say. Chassis, tires, fuel, engines, etc. But just like with having multiple dates on the same night, how do you accomplish it without getting your tires slashed? How do you get what you want without going down a dangerous road? NASCAR and F1 have more than just manufacturer money. Though they are the biggest backers, there is still something of value there with or without the manufacturers.Quote:
Isn't it funny that that's the series' where all the money is at? When I hear arguments that say "AOWR doesn't need the competition at the technology level," I'm thinking that's what they have now and it ain't working but the series' that are competing at the technical level have it all going for them. What's that thing Homer Simpson says? doh!
Somewhere, buried on an archived hard drive, I have some pictures of Bronte, before she got married to Alex Tagliani (and before she got the twin "enhancements"). I remember the photos because she was posing with Vasser's orange Visteon sponsored Toyota/Reynard at Surfer's Paradise - I guess that's when she and Alex met. OK, that's not really why I remember the photos. :o She was wearing the tiniest of lil orange bikinis, and she was getting doused with water by one of the crew guys. Good grief a mighty! :eek: I've been to NOPI events and seen the hoochie shows they put on. But other than F1, CART was the "OG" when it came to puttin' on that kind of show.Quote:
Call me shallow Hal, but if they had a "Nopi Chick" type deal going it would also bring people to the track. No Nopi Chicks needed at Surfers Paradise :)
Oh, and I don't want to strap Brit and the Valtrex spokesgirl to a car for sexy reasons. I'm thinking more of strapping them to the cars of Paul Tracy and maybe Marco Andretti. :devil: Thunder Dome, baby. Thunder Dome!
If only a GP2 team or an F3 team can associate with the Champ Car Atlantic Series in bringing a driver from an American series - it is the only option.
Sorry about Indy Car drivers. They won't cut it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placid
Unless the format is changed and evened out, and the cars become a great challenge for the drivers.
I'm sure the Super Aguri has the Panoz beat as toughest to drive cars, lol. Jordan's and Midland's qualify too since they were all the same team at one time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
The Panoz was a great car. It'll be a shame not to see it run after Long Beach.