1. Can he keep up his constant demolition of teammates?
2. How many more years of riding at this level (or higher) will it take for Stoner to become a motorcycling 'great' the same way that Rossi or Agostini or Hailwood are?
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1. Can he keep up his constant demolition of teammates?
2. How many more years of riding at this level (or higher) will it take for Stoner to become a motorcycling 'great' the same way that Rossi or Agostini or Hailwood are?
How good is Stoner? Very.
1. Unless Ducati find someone else capable of taming the bike he'll keep bashing them into next week.
2. At least 5 or 6 years. At the minute he has 1 championship when the bike was very quick, now he needs to convert lesser machinery into championships. The Rossi/Yamaha switch was impressive because everyone had been whinging about how poor that bike was. Given a Vale cash injection and Jerry Burgess it was a race winner out of the blocks.
Oh and he's got to be less boring :D . Assen was llame in terms of a scrap for the lead.
Without a doubt he's good but is he more exciting to watch than Rossi? I dont think so :D
Sure he's good, maybe the best in the world with his Ducati? But next to that, he's for sure the most boring GP rider at the moment(Y)
1. Can he keep up his constant demolition of teammates? Not sure that it is his constant demolition more than the others not lifting their game to compete. I would expect that he will not keep demolishing his team-mate when another competitive rider (in terms of on that machine) is found but I can guarantee that he is looking forward to the challenge.
2. How many more years of riding at this level (or higher) will it take for Stoner to become a motorcycling 'great' the same way that Rossi or Agostini or Hailwood are? It probably depends on the judge. To me there are very few true greats in global terms and I rate very few riders as great. Mind you this is because I only rate those riders that I have seen ride whether that be on television (watching their career) or in person.
There is absolutely no doubt (IMO) that CS can one day make the all time great list but I feel that he needs to sustain a high level of performance (consistency), overcome adversity and setbacks and win a few more championships.
I recognise what you mean but I suppose it comes down to what one wants to see when watching (and that is not criticism).Quote:
Originally Posted by St3ve
Me, I just enjoy watching the rider input as he/she tries to control the beast of a bike while hitting their same lines and markers, the symetry of man and machine, the sheer ness of the bikes and so on.
Whether a race be won by 15 seconds or has 15 bikes separated by 1 second, I can enjoy it based on what I look for in a race.
Of course, a close hard fought battle can provide far more 'edge of seats' viewing than a runaway, but for me each can well be equal in many terms.
Just wondering, how is Stoner boring?Quote:
Originally Posted by Corny
Or do you mean the manner of his wins?
Garry
indeed the way he wins, I haven't even seen him cheering to the public in Assen for one time!
Next to that, he's ALWAYS complaining about something..
I've heard him pushing his fans away when they asked his signature!
the only thing that is not boring about him, is his bike and its sound..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corny
Well, in the complaining department he sure is not alone as all riders complain when things go wrong, and often even when things go right. CS is no worse in the complaining department than most other riders, just that due to his position as both World Champion and Rossi challenger he gets a lot or air play on the media. Personally, for me it is not even 'complaining' as it is his job to ensure that everything is right in terms of meeting his end goal, if he has to voice a concern then so be it.
Interesting also that you comment about his 'allegedly' pushing fans away as I have heard the complete opposite from a number of people. Actually, I know of a number of people who have actually found him very accomodating, pleasant and only to willing to please when they have spoken with or asked him a question.
Mind you, the circumstances are crucial as these people all made sure that he was not in 'race mode' as every rider will be somewhat 'prickly' when they have that race face on.
Garry
People are used to Rossi being champion who is a very flamboyant character, both on and off the bike. Stoner is one of these people that just wants to win, whereas Rossi seems to enjoy the fight to win and I think that is the difference.
Most riders display some sort of passion, Nicky, Colin, Vale, Loris, they're all riders who where their heart on their sleve where people like Pedrosa and Stoner are much more introverted
Yep Stoner is a great rider but for me personally its more enjoyable to see a great battle at the front of the field lets hope that happens at the next round :D
It seems that many people expect CS to be a rock star or an entertainer. There have been a few riders that have been extroverts, Barry Sheene, Rossi spring to mind. I have watched Lorenzo try to emulate Rossi with his post race celebrations, and IMO, just looks foolish. I would rather that CS does his own thing, and that's just what he does. If there is a problem with the bike, he says it, if he makes a mistake, he says it. I don't like to see riders have a problem, and smile at the camera like everything is cool just to appease the sponsors. Mick Doohan told it like it is, Bayliss tells it like it is. I guess that's the way Aussies are, NO BS :)
I agree with that. Doesn't stop him from being boring though :p : I don't want all riders to be like Rossi, it's bad enough with 1. What I would like to see is a little more emotion from the guy, he's like a freaking robot. Same goes for Dani.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxu05
Yeah..........must be a bit of a bore to some people seeing that Casey Stoner is just a stock-standard, uncomplicated, well-rounded, experienced, cool-headed, top-shelf rider and world champion who doesn't even wear his cap back-to-front.
If you want a performing seal, go to Disneyland or Sea-World.
Ummm, yeah. That was pretty much my point. As I said already, one performing seal is enough and he's pretty damn good at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Richardson
No one has called into question the talent of the bloke but if I was given the option of going down the pub with either him or Colin Edwards or Nicky, or Vale then I'd choose one of the latter 3 because I get the impression that by about half nine Casey would be making his excuses and going home*. I'm not saying that he's not what a bike rider should be but that he is a bit of a dull bloke (at least that's the impression I get). It is far easier to acheive legendary status if you are also a bit of a character (whether you like it or not, it is most probably true).
If Casey continues to have a bike which he can win with then he will become a legend but it would be quicker to happen if he had a different image. I'm not saying that it's right that it should be that way, just that I believe it to be the case.
*Mind you the missus isn't a bad excuse to go home at 9:30 ;)
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Richardson
For being World Champions, both the Ducati bike and Stoner himself remain as enigmatic as ever, making questions like this practically unanswerable.
We saw Ducati relatively competitive right out of the box in MotoGP, then take a step backwards, then find their way again with Capirossi. Stoner has made inferrences to the fact that the Capirossi-era bike and his are basically incomparable. So, coupled with the fact that Melandri says he can't turn the thing, is this bike even all that great? Did it actually take a step *backwards* last year? Sure, it's quick in a straight line, but is it more delinquent in the corners as it is dominant on the straights? And is its straight-line prowess at least somewhat due to Stoner's superior corner exits?
I don't think anyone knows the answer to these questions. Well, actually, quite a few people do, but I don't think Ducati would tell the world how Stoner has to work miracles to compensate for their sub-standard bike, if that were the case.
Maybe just as apt a question is, how good is Niccolo Canepa?
I don't think the racing world has seen a situation like this; where you have a championship-winning vehicle, a quality 2nd driver/rider (a world champion in his own right!) of like nationality that one would think is getting full factory support (both mechanically AND emotionally), and yet he can't ride/drive the vehicle. He just can't.
It's a weird deal. But one thing no one can do, given the information we have, is say that Stoner is overrated, or that he's just winning because of the bike; the evidence just doesn't support that.
He will NEVER be an Ago or "The Doctor". He is a young kid with a rocket for a bike. There is one kid who is about to become the man, it's not Stoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
A rocket of a bike that only one rider has mastered. before 2007, Casey had not won a world title, Melandri had, so he is no mug. We have 3 other riders aboard the Ducati, yet they struggle from week to week. So you are saying that a rider that can master the hardest bike to ride in the Motogp paddock, battle with arguably the greatest rider in Motogp/500cc history and beat him, has no hope of becoming one of the greats. All I can say is "watch this space"
Aah crap. DezinerPaul is here. There goes the friendly neighbourhood. :laugh:
Thanks for once again presenting your opinions as facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
It's happened several times with Stoner, like Catalunya last year, and Qatar last year. Edge of your seat racing, and great duelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by St3ve
You'll see more of it when Stoner's bike is evenly matched with the frontrunners.
Anyone who thinks Stoner is boring on the bike just might be overlooking Pedrosa! I've never seen him in a duel, because whenever he's challenged he just goes backwards!
Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
We are talking about mototrcycles, different ball game. Now back to the question, regarding Casey. As much as he seems a nice kid and is riding the bike well, you can take it to the bank that he is not the second coming, he will not even become Aust best. All that being said, Casey has been in Europe for a long time and has raced these guys and never before has got the better of them. The difference for CS, is clearly the bike and what a great bike it is, it's pull at the end of the long straights is unbelievable.
There is however a young guy, that is clearly marked for stardom Jorge Lorenza, he I think is the only person than can stop Dani Pedroza, the two are clearly the class of the field when it comes to talent!
Irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
Nearly won in that highly second rate bike in '06, in one of his first races.Quote:
Now back to the question, regarding Casey. As much as he seems a nice kid and is riding the bike well, you can take it to the bank that he is not the second coming, he will not even become Aust best.
Avoid using definites, it makes you look like an idiot.
How, then?Quote:
All that being said, Casey has been in Europe for a long time and has raced these guys and never before has got the better of them.
Since you will probably use the Pedrosa in 250cc statistic from 2005, lets cover that. They weren't teammates, and four out of the top five in the championship rode Hondas. That suggests to me that Pedrosa was on the superior bike that year.
Oh. So whenever Stoner wins it's because of the bike, and whenever Pedrosa Or Lorenzo wins its because they're the second coming.Quote:
The difference for CS, is clearly the bike and what a great bike it is, it's pull at the end of the long straights is unbelievable.
There is however a young guy, that is clearly marked for stardom Jorge Lorenza, he I think is the only person than can stop Dani Pedroza, the two are clearly the class of the field when it comes to talent!
Get real.
Considering how Casey Stoner has crushed his teammates, I think thats entirely wrong. Pedrosa can't even put a move on someone unless he's ahead going into the braking zone. He lacks commitment and its damn obvious. And he can't ride in the wet. We will see about Jorge, and whether he will regain confidence.
Ordinary riders do not crush their racewinning teammates like Stoner does.
You obviously don't pay much attention because the Ducati is known to be a bit of a dog. Yes it's got straight line speed (although other bikes are closer now) but it's not really that good. Stoner is the only guy that can do anything on the bike while his team mate Melandri and the satellite riders are right at the tail end.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
I don't know if you are just fishing but what you just said made you come across as a bit stupid and you will be laughed out of town by most of the regular GP viewers on this forum.
Before Lorenzo can stop Pedrosa, Dani will first have to stop Stoner and Rossi. As Mr Squirrel said Dani struggles in battles, largely because he just isn't very good on the brakes. Certainly Lorenzo and Pedrosa are fantastic riders but I think that Rossi and Stoner are better by a tiny amount. All 4 will probably be world champs at some point in the future but if I was going to lay money on any of them it'd be Rossi or Stoner.
Rossi is in the twilight of his career. DP and JL are proven over their entire careers, they are the future of Moto GP. Why do you think that JL was picked as VR team mate, because they feel that he is the real deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo
As for the Duc being a bit of a dog, fiddle sticks. Don't judge the bike by Marco, the guy had some serious off's and has lost it, shame as he really was starting to sparkle. As for title, DP will very hard to beat this year., he is so consistent, not sure he can be caught!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
:laugh: :laugh:
What is this based on?
:laugh:
Yup :up: At 29 he's really looking at buying a zimmer frame :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
Right, and the current World Champion and 7 times champ aren't?Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
Agreed, as are Pedrosa, Stoner and Rossi.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
Don't judge it by Marco, or anything that is being said by people around MotoGP? Melandri finished 5th in last years championship and is a race winner. Now if we're talking serious offs and losing sparkle the man of the moment is Lorenzo who seems to have no confidence at the minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
Yup, 4 points is a lot to make up in MotoGP :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
The fact that a guy, who could not win, if his life depended on it, starts winning when he gets on the bike!Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Yet a guy who could win got on it and started losing, go figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
You are in the wrong forum DezinerPaul. Over here we look at things in a more constructive manner, and respect each others views. Please consider this when you post here please. You have a right to your opinion of course, but please back it up and try not to insult others with outlandish claims.
Not sure what you are smoking, you sure are not reading what I have said. The fact is I have an opinion, like anybody else, I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here. You ask me to back up my opinion, yet the person who started this topic, had the opinion, that Stoner was the second coming, without backing it up. As for your condescending attitude, please keep it to yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxu05
Yeah right. Bye, please don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I like Casey. I think that he is better than Pedrosa and about Lorenzo, we'll see. He's too wild IMO.
I also like Casey's personality and way of winning. Vale's way is annoying to me. Casey loooks like dominator, on and off track. He is great.
The bike argument is laughable. Ask Marco Melandri.
I don't think John was condescending. Everyone gets along alright on the bike forum, which I think most of us are fairly proud about. If anything your assumption that you know more about racing than any of us is the condescending (and arrogant) comment.
You say you know more about racing than most but seem to have a view that is different from pretty much everyone else involved in the sport. Stoner is undoubtedly a quick rider. He has absolutely walked the last two GPs whilst good riders on the same bike have struggled. Whilst you could attribute Assen to the Dukes speed advantage (which I think speed traps will tell you is not as big as it was), Donnington is not a straightline track.
In fact at high speed tracks like Catalunya and Estoril he has struggled. At Shanghai and PortugalRossi was only 3 kph off the Ducatis. Sorry but that small speed advantage cannot account for such a gap.
Yeah, we don't want to chip the paint :DQuote:
Originally Posted by maxu05
:cheese:
Facts from official Moto GP site.......................................
"With a background in Australian dirt-track, Stoner boldly moved to Europe as a teenager, where he shone on a 125cc machine in the UK and Spain. A five-year rise into MotoGP saw two 125cc wins and five 250cc successes, and he even managed a podium result with 2nd place on only his third MotoGP outing in 2006.
After only two years Stoner is already the 5th best performer ever in MotoGP in terms of appearances and victories. Only four other riders have won 8 or more premier-class races in a single season - Mick Doohan, Giacomo Agostini, Valentino Rossi and Mike Hailwood.
Stoner is the second youngest rider to win the premier class title after 1983 Champion Freddie Spencer. His debut win in Qatar in 2007 made him the first Australian rider to win in all three current GP classes."
His history speaks for itself. This is racing at its finest so sit back and enjoy.
Mate, with respects.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
When you go making a statement like 'I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most here' I sure do hope you can back it up if asked. So, before I answer I will say where I am coming from, so that you may (or may not) understand.
Have been following racing for 25 or so years and worked numerous race meetings throughout Australia for a few years now. Have a number of personal friends and acquantainces who have worked in all forms of racing internationally from officials, through riders, through to team members. This has given me an insight into the racing scene but I can guarantee you taht there are many in this forum and other places that have far more knowledge that I do. So that out of the way, into my comments.
You have every right to believe the way you do, it is after all you opinion but do not be surprised if people as you to back it up and times anmd/or explain in a different manner to make your thoughts more understood.
I see that for one, you obviously do not rate Casey Stoner to highly by comparison to Jorge Lorenzo (JL) or Dani Pedrosa (DP) when talk of sheer abilities is discussed. As a comparison, in the 2005 250cc championship woin by DP with 309 points (won 8 races), CS finished second on 254 points (won 5 races) and JL fith on 167 (no wins but 4 seconds). That year saw CS as the only non Honda in the top 4 which would indicate that teh Honda had the better bike, or riders (individual take on that one).
In 2004, DP won the world 250cc title with 317 points and 7 race wins. That year CS and JL both competed in the 125cc with JL fourth on 179 points (3 wins, 5 dnf) to CS in fith on 145 points (1 win, 7 dnf's). In the case of 2004, JL slightly shaded CS and neither can be compared to DP.
Now, lets looks at 2006 (leaving JL out as he was not in MotoGP).
DP was signed by teh Respol Honda factory team, one of the more sought after positions in the paddock whilst CS entered MotpGP with LCR to ride a satellite Honda. It is commonly accepoted (and acknowledged world wide) that the satellite bikes are not the equal of the factory bikes, nor do they receive the same support or equipment from other suppliers.
In 2006 Dani finished fifth in his rookie year, a tremendous result with 2 wins and 2 seconds (2 dnf), whilst Casey finished 8th with a second as his best result (7 dnf). Certainly on results one could suggest that DP was superior in 2006, although I would argue that when the teams and equipment levels are weighted the season of CS was impressive.
In that rookie year CS finished in front of established riders (in descending order from 9th) Hopkins, Vermuelen, Tamada, Gibernau, Nakano, Chea and others.
In my opinion, CS' first year showed that the guy has the ability necessary to master the larger capacity machine.
To date in the premier class it is fair to say that CS has the better reults of both DP and JL but all are in the early stages of their careers and without doubt all will continue to learn and improve. It will be clearer to all in 5 or so years where these three riders sit in terms of championships and also how history will judge them.
For me, CS is at this stage the better or the listed three in the MotoGP class, although I must say that Lorenzo has really impressed (IMO, far more so than DP).
Garry
Hello.Quote:
Originally Posted by DezinerPaul
Welcome to the forums.
You might want to try being on here for more than five days before you decide to slag off people who have been on here for years and are well-known and respected amongst these parts. ("I also guarantee that I know more about racing than most on here" - way to endear yourself, I don't think)
As for your posts - yep, Vale is definitely in the twilight of his career. Except that it's been a good twilight as he was leading the championship before Assen with a few wins, and is just 4 points behind at present. Not to mention the seven titles beforehand, as Jan mentioned.
No-one's saying Dani, Jorge, or Casey are rubbish - far from it as already mentioned. Indeed, the starter of this thread was posing the question as to how good Casey is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gco0307
Nice post, I agree with a lot that you said. Same two points though, Casey has never dominated, before the Duc, his KTM was clearly the class of the field in it's last season, it was him that blew a title chance, not the bike.
To say at this point, that he is the second coming is doing a huge injustice , to the real greats, Micky D, Ago, VR and Hailwood. Those guys are just very special and Casey has never looked to be in their class. You said forget Jorge, but the guy dominated 250's for 2 years, he comes in to Moto and is faster than Vali, sure he has had some huge offs, yet even though he is riding with serious pain ‘X Fuera’ is still in the top 4 and is still making passes late in the race. If there is one young guy, that looks like a VR in the making it is him. That being said Dani P is still to guy to beat this year, he is just so consistent, Vali has had a few mistakes that have let others in (never thought I would say that)
Quote:
Originally Posted by patnicholls
It was said tongue in cheek so to speak, was sparked at one particular person and did not choose my words wisely. Nobody can question Stoner's ability, just want to make it clear, that if one is objective, they are not going to consider him as the second coming.
His chances of the title this year are not that good, last year he had a dominant bike, end of.
How good is Stoner? My guess is that he could end up with 2 maybe 3 titles, is he as good as ‘X Fuera’ for my money, I am not sure anybody is as good as the young man from Spain, he is a rare talent.