Domenicali what a turkey 'Alonso & Schumi the only leaders in F1'

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali has argued that despite his outstanding success in F1 this season and last, Sebastian Vettel is 'still not a leader' - and that only two current drivers truly are
Domenicali: Vettel is still not a leader | F1 News | Sep 2011 | Crash.Net

'Alonso & Schumi the only leaders in F1' | Planet F1 | Formula One News...
In an interview with Bild, the Ferrari team boss spoke about what makes a team a great team and one of those aspects is having a true leader at the helm.

But, out of 24 drivers on the grid, he believes Formula One currently has just two leader drivers, Alonso and Schumacher.

how the Fen L can you call alonso a leader (alonso 83 points ahead of massa)(Rosberg ahead of Schumacher by 8 points)

that right alonso was a leader in spygate ?

LOL what a fool :D

What about Stefano Domenicali "it self" ?? Is he a good leader for Team Ferrari ??
Given that he's the leader for a team with lot of resources and as he is stating, he also has the best driver on the track, (which even is supported as the first driver in the team), but where are results? Last year (Alonsos first season at Ferrari) Ferrari was winner 5 times, but this year until now only ones - which tells, however to me, that the leadership has made a moderate good job.. But, it's true that Alonso is 30 years old and Vettel is 24 years young, however this young guy is reigning word champion and probably will be it again after this season .. .. :)

But some of the people at Ferrari,think that the best out and out racer is Lewis

Leaders? What a joke. I thought teams need fast drivers but I guess when you're as bad a leader as Domenicali, you want the driver to do your job.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Leaders? What a joke. I thought teams need fast drivers but I guess when you're as bad a leader as Domenicali, you want the driver to do your job.

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That's how he lost Kimi and got the Santander package instead.

Domenicali has no real right to decide who is and who is not a leader since he has not worked with all 26 drivers on the grid. His opinion of Alonso is going to be biased given that he is number 1 in the team (whether or not officially) and Schumacher obviously has a long history with the team and, in my opinion, is a proven team leader anyway.

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Originally Posted by driveace

But some of the people at Ferrari,think that the best out and out racer is Lewis

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ROFLMAO. WTF is an "out and out racer"? Is that some cutesy british lingo for a cheating, lying spoiled brat who can't drive down a race track without crashing into someone else and then blaming them for it?

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Originally Posted by vhatever

ROFLMAO. WTF is an "out and out racer"? Is that some cutesy british lingo for a cheating, lying spoiled brat who can't drive down a race track without crashing into someone else and then blaming them for it?

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Thats it.

That is what a real out and out racer is.

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Originally Posted by 52Paddy

Domenicali has no real right to decide who is and who is not a leader since he has not worked with all 26 drivers on the grid. His opinion of Alonso is going to be biased given that he is number 1 in the team (whether or not officially) and Schumacher obviously has a long history with the team and, in my opinion, is a proven team leader anyway.

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The whole idea of a team leader is a weird one to me. What's the point? Red Bull doesn't really have one, the drivers just fight each other and take both championships. What else do you need?

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Originally Posted by vhatever

ROFLMAO. WTF is an "out and out racer"? Is that some cutesy british lingo for a cheating, lying spoiled brat who can't drive down a race track without crashing into someone else and then blaming them for it?

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Darn it, that's absolutely verbatim what is written here in the 'redneck guide to communicatin'

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

The whole idea of a team leader is a weird one to me. What's the point? Red Bull doesn't really have one, the drivers just fight each other and take both championships. What else do you need?

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It's one of those "I said it therefore it has meaning" type statements.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

The whole idea of a team leader is a weird one to me. What's the point? Red Bull doesn't really have one, the drivers just fight each other and take both championships. What else do you need?

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Well, I think that’s his point, isn’t it?

I see the point that Domenicali is trying to make but it’s a bit of a nothing statement and I don’t agree with it. From all I’ve heard about Seb and the way he works he is very much a team leader. He demands exactly what it is that he wants behind closed doors by all accounts. Any successful drivers must be like this. They must be selfish and get what they want to succeed and Seb is bearing the fruits of his hard work and team leadership at the moment.

I think the point that Domenicali was trying to make is that he doesn’t stick out and dominate his teammates like Schumacher did at Ferrari, or Alonso did at Renault when he won his two world titles and is currently doing at Ferrari. Either way he is wrong because Seb has definitely dealt with Webber this year in a very certain manner and I foresee him continuing to do so too.

This is one area, among a few, that Hamilton needs to become stronger. Currently I feel that McLaren are leading him. He needs to be more independent and make his own decisions. McLaren have proved they are weak as a team in the strategy department at times. It’s an area they need to improve on if they are to become champions again. Hamilton also needs to improve on this bigtime, as seen in Hungary. He needs to become more independent like Button and be able to judge conditions for himself. While Hamilton is quicker than his teammate, Button has no qualms staying out and judging the situation on his own and refusing a team call to pit him, as witnessed in China last year, if he believes it would not be to his benefit. I can’t ever remember as situation where Hamilton did this.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

The whole idea of a team leader is a weird one to me. What's the point? Red Bull doesn't really have one, the drivers just fight each other and take both championships. What else do you need?

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If a driver has such an influence on a team, so as the team gear themselves around that driver's needs, then surely you can consider that driver a team leader. Schumacher had Ferrari catering for his every need during his stint with the team and Barrichello was the rear-gunner. Mansell had a similar effect on the Williams team in 91/92. How many times did we see a Barrichello-esque Patrese wave Mansell through?

It's not just world champions either. While I can't think of a certain example off hand, I'm sure Minardi bent over backwards for the loyal Pier-Luigi Martini during his many stints with the team.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

This is one area, among a few, that Hamilton needs to become stronger. Currently I feel that McLaren are leading him. He needs to be more independent and make his own decisions. McLaren have proved they are weak as a team in the strategy department at times. It’s an area they need to improve on if they are to become champions again. Hamilton also needs to improve on this bigtime, as seen in Hungary. He needs to become more independent like Button and be able to judge conditions for himself. While Hamilton is quicker than his teammate, Button has no qualms staying out and judging the situation on his own and refusing a team call to pit him, as witnessed in China last year, if he believes it would not be to his benefit. I can’t ever remember as situation where Hamilton did this.

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+1 :up:

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

This is one area, among a few, that Hamilton needs to become stronger. Currently I feel that McLaren are leading him. He needs to be more independent and make his own decisions. McLaren have proved they are weak as a team in the strategy department at times. It’s an area they need to improve on if they are to become champions again. Hamilton also needs to improve on this bigtime, as seen in Hungary. He needs to become more independent like Button and be able to judge conditions for himself. While Hamilton is quicker than his teammate, Button has no qualms staying out and judging the situation on his own and refusing a team call to pit him, as witnessed in China last year, if he believes it would not be to his benefit. I can’t ever remember as situation where Hamilton did this.

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Yes, agreed - but how many years has JB had to learn his craft? Experience is learned, and increases over time........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Yes, agreed - but how many years has JB had to learn his craft? Experience is learned, and increases over time........

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Yes, but Hamilton is now in his 5th season of F1 so he has quite a bit of experience. I don't believe he should be as far behind Button in this area as he appears to be at the moment. He should improve with time of course. I would class Seb as better than Hamilton in this department. He has no issue telling the team that he is not coming in if he doesn't think it's right. He did this last year in some race but I can't remember which one off the top of my head.

Perhaps it's because he has grown up within the surroundings of McLaren. Maybe he feels that he can't argue with the people who have brought him this far in the game. Button, on the other hand, was an outsider with a fresh mind going into the factory. I'd love to see how Hamilton handles the dynamic of another F1 team.

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Originally Posted by 52Paddy

Perhaps it's because he has grown up within the surroundings of McLaren. Maybe he feels that he can't argue with the people who have brought him this far in the game. Button, on the other hand, was an outsider with a fresh mind going into the factory. I'd love to see how Hamilton handles the dynamic of another F1 team.

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Very possible alright. It's kind of like your parents telling you to do something. It's very hard to say no to them. Button has no such issue. I would also love to see how Hamilton handles a new team.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Very possible alright. It's kind of like your parents telling you to do something. It's very hard to say no to them. Button has no such issue.

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Maybe you could send Button over to talk to my 14 year old daughter! Perhaps we could swap her into the McLaren and partner her with Hamfist. Now that i would pay to see!! Lmao.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Well, I think that’s his point, isn’t it?

I see the point that Domenicali is trying to make but it’s a bit of a nothing statement and I don’t agree with it. From all I’ve heard about Seb and the way he works he is very much a team leader. He demands exactly what it is that he wants behind closed doors by all accounts. Any successful drivers must be like this. They must be selfish and get what they want to succeed and Seb is bearing the fruits of his hard work and team leadership at the moment.

I think the point that Domenicali was trying to make is that he doesn’t stick out and dominate his teammates like Schumacher did at Ferrari, or Alonso did at Renault when he won his two world titles and is currently doing at Ferrari. Either way he is wrong because Seb has definitely dealt with Webber this year in a very certain manner and I foresee him continuing to do so too.

This is one area, among a few, that Hamilton needs to become stronger. Currently I feel that McLaren are leading him. He needs to be more independent and make his own decisions. McLaren have proved they are weak as a team in the strategy department at times. It’s an area they need to improve on if they are to become champions again. Hamilton also needs to improve on this bigtime, as seen in Hungary. He needs to become more independent like Button and be able to judge conditions for himself. While Hamilton is quicker than his teammate, Button has no qualms staying out and judging the situation on his own and refusing a team call to pit him, as witnessed in China last year, if he believes it would not be to his benefit. I can’t ever remember as situation where Hamilton did this.

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I don't agree. A good example of what you call leading is Mika Häkkinen who did what Mclaren wanted him to do and he won to WDCs. He never questioned their choices.

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Originally Posted by 52Paddy

If a driver has such an influence on a team, so as the team gear themselves around that driver's needs, then surely you can consider that driver a team leader. Schumacher had Ferrari catering for his every need during his stint with the team and Barrichello was the rear-gunner. Mansell had a similar effect on the Williams team in 91/92. How many times did we see a Barrichello-esque Patrese wave Mansell through?

It's not just world champions either. While I can't think of a certain example off hand, I'm sure Minardi bent over backwards for the loyal Pier-Luigi Martini during his many stints with the team.

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My point is that you do not need a team leader to win championships, in fact in the long run two good drivers like Button and Hamilton will bring more success (championship points) than concentrating on drivers such as Lewis/ Alonso and letting these Kovys and Massas run with the leftovers. Schumi is an obviously exception to that.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I don't agree. A good example of what you call leading is Mika Häkkinen who did what Mclaren wanted him to do and he won to WDCs. He never questioned their choices.

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Originally Posted by 52Paddy

If a driver has such an influence on a team, so as the team gear themselves around that driver's needs, then surely you can consider that driver a team leader. Schumacher had Ferrari catering for his every need during his stint with the team and Barrichello was the rear-gunner. Mansell had a similar effect on the Williams team in 91/92. How many times did we see a Barrichello-esque Patrese wave Mansell through?

It's not just world champions either. While I can't think of a certain example off hand, I'm sure Minardi bent over backwards for the loyal Pier-Luigi Martini during his many stints with the team.

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My point is that you do not need a team leader to win championships, in fact in the long run two good drivers like Button and Hamilton will bring more success than concentrating on drivers such as Lewis/ Alonso and letting these Kovys and Massas run with the leftovers. Schumi is an obviously excpetion to that.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

in the long run two good drivers like Button and Hamilton will bring more success (championship points) than concentrating on drivers such as Lewis/ Alonso and letting these Kovys and Massas run with the leftovers. Schumi is an obviously exception to that.

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But will it bring the championships that the team is in the sport to win?

LH/FA, RS/JPM, NM/NP and AP/NM suggest otherwise.....

SD has never worked one-to-one with Seb or was he hearing paddock gossip?

IMO judging by the radio excerpts after the chequered flag Vettel sounds like a team leader who built up a strong relationship with team members.

Some years ago Paul Di Resta remarked in Autosport how in Euro F3 Vettel made an effort to build a strong team around him.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

This is one area, among a few, that Hamilton needs to become stronger. Currently I feel that McLaren are leading him. He needs to be more independent and make his own decisions. McLaren have proved they are weak as a team in the strategy department at times. It’s an area they need to improve on if they are to become champions again. Hamilton also needs to improve on this bigtime, as seen in Hungary. He needs to become more independent like Button and be able to judge conditions for himself. While Hamilton is quicker than his teammate, Button has no qualms staying out and judging the situation on his own and refusing a team call to pit him, as witnessed in China last year, if he believes it would not be to his benefit. I can’t ever remember as situation where Hamilton did this.

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Strategy/racecraft - that is more internal, micro elements of driving and the decision making.

Leadership is the external. First and foremost you need to be super quick backed up with results, coupled that with winning mentality instilled with a strong working relationship with team personnel.

Going through a blip doesn't necessarily make you a bad leader, as Alonso proved and Rob Smedley testified last year.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

LOL what a fool :D

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I agree :p :

Are we talking about the same Domenicali who's quoted in this article Domenicali says Ferrari is building an 'unbeatable structure' - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com ?

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Originally Posted by SD on autosport.com

"[Jean] Todt won a lot, but he had time to build a winning team with extraordinary balance. I aim to do the same and am optimistic about the future.

"With this Red Bull... I may sound crazy, but I'm convinced we are building the basis to have an unbeatable structure. With a warning though: no lone men at the helm, like Red Bull with Newey, but a team.

He added: "Ferrari is condemned to win: in our history we'll never be allowed to smile for a second place."

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Todt built the greatest team and the fools LdM with Stefano destroyed it and now are claiming they can do the same. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I don't agree. A good example of what you call leading is Mika Häkkinen who did what Mclaren wanted him to do and he won to WDCs. He never questioned their choices.

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Does crying in the bushes help with leading a team?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Does crying in the bushes help with leading a team?

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I did something since the guy won a lot of races and is still well-liked by the team. You're obviously just looking for an argument sunshine. I won't take the bait though.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

My point is that you do not need a team leader to win championships

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Agreed. I didn't dispute that.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

in fact in the long run two good drivers like Button and Hamilton will bring more success (championship points) than concentrating on drivers such as Lewis/ Alonso and letting these Kovys and Massas run with the leftovers. Schumi is an obviously exception to that.

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Agreed also with regard to the constructor's title (this is assuming that variables, like both drivers taking each other out of the race regularly, don't occur). Not quite the same with regard to the driver's title, given that such a situation will result in driver's taking points off each other. Anyway, I'm not disputing your points - I'm just saying that some drivers can lead a team in the right direction. If that is at the expense of the other driver then that's unfortunate but perhaps this is a comfort zone for most teams to be in, if their respective drivers are happy.

best drivers in F1
alonso
hamilton
seb

what is so hard about this. Currently there are no drivers that will displace these three.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Strategy/racecraft - that is more internal, micro elements of driving and the decision making.

Leadership is the external. First and foremost you need to be super quick backed up with results, coupled that with winning mentality instilled with a strong working relationship with team personnel.

Going through a blip doesn't necessarily make you a bad leader, as Alonso proved and Rob Smedley testified last year.

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I never said Hamilton was a bad team leader, I'm sure he has his qualities, but I get the impression that he is being lead too much by McLaren a lot opposed to the other way around. Of course not every driver can be a Michael Schumacher in this department. They are a team and they work together but he just doesn't seem to have that sense of independance from them that Button has or that Vettel does with RBR.

He has everything else, raw speed, a great relationship with the team. He loves the team and they love him - all good. I've never considered Hamilton as going through a blip in the strategy department, I've just never got the impression that he was very good at it from inside the cockpit. Button is ahead of him in this department, as is Seb. I'm hoping he will prove me wrong because I'm still of the opinion that he is the fastest driver out there and he is my favourite driver, but he needs to wise up in this area, I feel.

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Originally Posted by 52Paddy

Agreed. I didn't dispute that.



Agreed also with regard to the constructor's title (this is assuming that variables, like both drivers taking each other out of the race regularly, don't occur). Not quite the same with regard to the driver's title, given that such a situation will result in driver's taking points off each other. Anyway, I'm not disputing your points - I'm just saying that some drivers can lead a team in the right direction. If that is at the expense of the other driver then that's unfortunate but perhaps this is a comfort zone for most teams to be in, if their respective drivers are happy.

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I don't dispute that all, I just don't like it. We've only got about 20+ cars, we need drivers with equal status to make it as exciting as possible.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I don't dispute that all, I just don't like it. We've only got about 20+ cars, we need drivers with equal status to make it as exciting as possible.

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That's that perfect world thingy again.... :p

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

He has everything else, raw speed, a great relationship with the team. He loves the team and they love him - all good. I've never considered Hamilton as going through a blip in the strategy department, I've just never got the impression that he was very good at it from inside the cockpit. Button is ahead of him in this department, as is Seb. I'm hoping he will prove me wrong because I'm still of the opinion that he is the fastest driver out there and he is my favourite driver, but he needs to wise up in this area, I feel.

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But does in the heat of the moment strategy make you a bad leader?

There are more dry races than wet/mixed conditions. Prost wasn't great in the wet but he is still regarded as a leader.

As I said before, leadership comes mostly from outside the cockpit allied by performance within the cockpit.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I don't dispute that all, I just don't like it. We've only got about 20+ cars, we need drivers with equal status to make it as exciting as possible.

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F1 was a team sport for as long as the existence of the Grand Prix racing.

And the irony of last year over the furore over team orders at Hockenheim, because without them we would not have a more exciting battle for the WDC.

Leadership, you mean "me me me me". OK I understand.

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Originally Posted by wedge

But does in the heat of the moment strategy make you a bad leader?

There are more dry races than wet/mixed conditions. Prost wasn't great in the wet but he is still regarded as a leader.

As I said before, leadership comes mostly from outside the cockpit allied by performance within the cockpit.

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Absolutely not. I just don't believe Hamilton is as good in the heat of the moment decision making as others on the grid are. And if he is, he isn't showing it because he has blind faith in his teams strategic decisions. However, that has cost him a few times this year e.g. Hungary, Monaco qualifying, Australia last year etc This is the area I'm talking about where he needs to improve, imo.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I would class Seb as better than Hamilton in this department. He has no issue telling the team that he is not coming in if he doesn't think it's right. He did this last year in some race but I can't remember which one off the top of my head.

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Seb is far too reliant on team strategy as a get out of jail card.

Seb is often criticised for lacking a killer instinct. British GP - with the better car he failed to pass Hamilton and relied on pit strategy; German GP - stuck behind Massa and gambled on beating him in a pit stop race on the last lap.

Critique aside, that does not make or fault Seb's leadership qualities.

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Originally Posted by wedge

Seb is far too reliant on team strategy as a get out of jail card.

Seb is often criticised for lacking a killer instinct. British GP - with the better car he failed to pass Hamilton and relied on pit strategy; German GP - stuck behind Massa and gambled on beating him in a pit stop race on the last lap.

Critique aside, that does not make or fault Seb's leadership qualities.

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Tbh you could say the above of all drivers if you pick out certain races :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Tbh you could say the above of all drivers if you pick out certain races :)

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When you're in the quicker car and regarded as one of the best drivers but look imptotent in a race not lacking in overtaking, then surely those criticisms are warranted?

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Originally Posted by wedge

When you're in the quicker car and regarded as one of the best drivers but look imptotent in a race not lacking in overtaking, then surely those criticisms are warranted?

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Tbh you could say the above of all drivers if you pick out certain races :)