http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5402643.ece
:eek:
I didn't think Israel would be so ambitious.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5402643.ece
:eek:
I didn't think Israel would be so ambitious.
my understanding is that Hamas started it - Therefore you must accept the retaliation!
eh no, the gazans were being starved and denied clean water, then israel sent in (bravely I may add) the American built apaches to kill them breaking any ceasefire agreement. Check it out it happened on Nov 6th 2008.Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
Women and children killed today. I hope the zionists are happy.
btw the Palestinians were promised a SHOAH by israel earlier in 2008. The govt minister did not lie, we saw his lips move. the zionists are now making good on their promise.
If its about protecting Israeli citizens, they lost one because of the retaliation. South Israel is the scum end of israel, they (israel) dont really care about the folks who live in that area. not my opinion, just ask any Israeli about that part of the world :laugh:
Yep, no question Israel started it all by just existing.
Of course, the hundreds of mortar and rocket attacks from Gaza were just expressions of love by Hasmas for the Israelis.
You can only provoke Israel so long before the brown stuff hits the fan.
I do not think Israel is totally blameless but they were not the ones firing rockets and mortar shells during a ceasefire.
Er, why does Eygpt normally have her border sealed to Gaza? After all it is an Arabic country. Why does Gaza and the Hamas have to rely on water and supplies from Israel? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
Time for Eki to come in with his usual anti democracy BS.
care to tell us what the first action a democratically elected government in Egypt will do?
why did the Gazans break out on the Egyptian border back in March if Egypt cant send them supplies?
Think about it
this is not rocket science - as I have said all along - you can relocate israel or this will continue to escalate until all hell breaks lose. I still think Israel will attack Iran before Bush leaves office.
Nice dodging the question Sod. Your replies are a typical politicians' act of refusing to reply directly but throwing up irrelevant questions when you have no sensible response. Just like your response to Fuosto in another thread.
Here's one for you. Why can't Eygpt help them? Logistics?
Or they really want no part of Hamas?
Not only that you totally ignored the first part of my post.
Do you support the Somali pirates?
Do you support the Taliban?
Will you answer the questions or will you duck and dodge like a two bit politician?
Let the rest of us see your political stripes.
^ I just stumped ya! you're the one who brought up Egypt. Change the subject why don't ya.
I agree that they will attack Iran. They have left Gaza in horrible conditions. Israel needs to chill out on the crap they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
Sod: I saw no point in responding to your obviously silly questions.
Naturally I have no idea what the Govt. of Eygpt will do. If you do please enlighten us. Of course, if you do know you must be a member of the Eygptian Govt. Are you?
I do not really understand your second question. Perhaps you can explain it and answer it at the same time.
Now let us see some straight answers with no ducking and dodging and going off at tangents.
So far you have avoided answering any direct questions.
thanks for admitting that you dont know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy Drifter
let it glow let it glow let it glow
Anti-democracy? Hamas was democratically elected. Surrenderring to Israel would be anti-democratic and betraying their voters. I guess your definition of democracy is different than mine, because I don't consider very democratic forcing other people across the globe at gun point to become "democratic". I call it dictating and making the rules as you go, the US does a lot of dictating in the world and the Israeli does a lot of dictating in the Middle East.Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy Drifter
I have very little sympathy for either Israel or Hamas, as both have been antagonising each other constantly.
Israel building more in the occupied territories, and Hamas firing rockets into Israel.
Who I do feel sympathy for are the poor innocent civilians, as always they are the one's who suffer.
This is not going to be resolved overnight as neither side are willing to back down, Hamas could help their cause by a cessation of rocket launches and Israel by opening up trade links and moving out of the occupied territories but that won't happen.
The fact that the US and to a lesser extent the UK have not condemned Israel's over reaction, will be seen as a green light for Israel to continue their bombardment of Gazza killing anyone in the vicinity.
Just how long will Israel be able to play the victim card, it's a bit worn out now.
You do realise that all the settlements in Gaza were deserted in 2005..?Quote:
Originally Posted by yodasarmpit
This action came down on the Hamas (who I remind you, does not accept Israel's right to exist) because we can't accept 60 rockets a day on civilian targets. The Hamas just needs to know that there is a price for firing into Israel. Had they not fired 60 rockets a day, this action wouldn't have begun.
As for the Egyptians, they want Gaza much less than you think, Sean. They have declined responsibility time and time again because they don't want a radical terrorist movement such as Hamas under their wing.
BTW I an now studying in Ben Gurion U, so from now on you can refer to me as zionist scum living in the scum end of Israel.
Anyhoo, did anyone catch the footage of candy being thrown in celebration over here?
Oh, right, the vicious zionists here don't take to the streets and celebrate every time enemy blood is shed.
apologist for mass murder. the 'mass murder' going on in gaza is widely popular in Israel. Perpetrated on behalf of the israelis by the brave F16s and unmanned air vehicles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
btw, that's what your fellow countrymen and countrywomen, not me, refer to the 'south' of Israel.
Ehud Barack tried this bombing last year (and on many occasions over the past 15 years), it didnt stop the rockets. The Ehud barack doctrine, try the same thing over and over hoping you get a different result.
has the mass murder made israel any safer tonight? The israeli govt was talking about protecting its citizens at the same time an israeli was killed in retaliation.
May you go in peace Rani.
For a nation with some quite intelligent people (I mean that seriously btw!) Israel does dumb things. At the end of the day all the Palestinians want to do is live their lives in peace and not be killed and not kill anyone. Sure a lot of hateful people talk big and talk of removing Israel from the map. But down down people don't give a **** as long as they have a roof over their heads, food, healthcare and so on. When they have all that they won't care that Israel is there, they simply won't care at all and life will go on. If you leave them alone and allow food, aid and medical supplies in then the people will see that you're trying to help and the millitants will be marginalised and support for them will turn into hatred for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SOD
I think that sort of happened in Northern Ireland. The British didn't send all their air force and tank brigades after every IRA attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Exactly. And now the Northern Irish still dislike the British a bit but they hate the IRA even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Daniel,
israel goes for the big stupid. They can have peace if they want it. They dont seem to want to.
Well the arms industry probably has a lot to do with it :) Well at least some people are getting rich. Some consolation eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by SOD
The thing about people not wanting peace is all too true. Why else did people in Northern Ireland go on voting for extremist parties for so many years? That example also proves that negotiation is the best way out, as glib as it may seem to say so. Those on both sides who advocate war as the solution are nothing more than extremists — or, at least, they should be classed as such, by our standards.
In negotiations you need a "fair broker" that lead the negotiations, sofar that has not happend in Israel/Palestine conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
There has been some rumours that Tony Blair might take over, for me its difficult to see him as very fair either, so the conflict will go on.
Really? Why would they then turn around and elect Hamas who have basically said they have no interest in negotiating with Israel and want it GONE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
They have been offered this a few times. Remember Oslo? Arafat was offered 90% of what he wanted for peace and in the end, he squandered the opportunity and Hamas moved into the power vacuum. I have no problem believing the man on the street in Gaza and the West Bank may want peace but he wants that peace with a lot of Dead Jews and Israel gone if you ask me. To suggest otherwise to ignore the celebratory attitude any time any Israeli casualties announced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
They do care and they have been told to care by other Arab nations who have screwed the Palestinians at every opportunity. Egypt could help Gaza with water and humantarian supplies and make Israel look REALLY bad if you buy into the argument that this is mean ole Israel making live miserable for the sake of their own arrogance but Egypt wants nothing to do with Hamas and the Gaza problem. Never has....yet they went to war 3 times to supposively recapture this area for the Arab world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Lets face a few hard truths.
One, Israel isn't shy about making other's know where the line in the sand is drawn. They have done this probably in a heavy handed fashion.
Two, Hamas has no interest in keeping Israel as a friend because it will defeat their whole purpose politically. They have no real political plan other than a war with Israel.
If they really cared about the poor schmuck in Gaza, they would cease fire, get things improving infrastructure and business wise in the strip and find a way to have Egypt be that conduit of goods and water that the Israeli's wont give them. Of course...that would be helping the Palestinians at the expense of fighting the Israeli's and of course, as I have pointed out they have never stopped their war with Israel on one level or another and why would they stop now?
They are not even smart about this for they have been doing this for years and barely making the Israeli nation do much more than just keep them aside. They have no hope of winning for if they actually WON against Israel they wouldn't have a purpose.
Hating Israel is too easy an excuse for your own incompetance. The fact many on here and a few dopey journalists keep attacking Israel ignores the basic fact no nation will stand for being attacked in this fashion without fighting back. Whatever one might think of the elected and only true democratic state in the Middle East, the leaders there know they have no political legitmacy if they allow their citizens to endure rocket attacks from Hamas and not do SOMETHING. Now we can argue if the response is heavy handed, but the last time I looked, no one won a peace thru war without actually applying force, and in military terms, there is no point in showing your enemy a weakness with a war to win.
hey i thought israel was building a fence
what happened to that ??
Right on Mark.
Please stand by for far left wing irrelevant responses from Eki and especially Sod (IT).
I don't even want to buy into the arguments proferred by several protaganists here so far.
What intrigues me is what the motive was for firing rockets into Israel. They were mostly ineffective, and counter productive in the deadly return fire from Israel; but in the end spurred Israel to a massive response. I have no doubt that with satellite surveyance and other intelligence, Israel was able to identify where the rockets were stored, and where the guys who were firing them came from. They also found out where the rockets were stored, as well as the tunnels beneath the border with Egypt that were being used to smuggle them in. Now these are being destroyed.
Basically, Hamas provoked a terrifying response of biblical magnitude, and I just cannot figure out why. Was it so that the Arab World would contribute even more enormous sums of money to those remaining?
Maybe somebody can tell me why.
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy Drifter
I'm not going to have a proper reasoned discussion because I find it much easier to brand all of you right wing gun toting nutjobs instead. Anyone who speaks out in opposition of me is a right wing loony!
Since when did branding the other side left wing or right wing constitute an argument?
The people are work here are extremists. They need not use logic when making decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
Famous Chinese saying: Dog walking up a narrow nullah knows a path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
You make exactly this same point every few months on this forum Mr Dunnell.People didnt vote for the Sinn Fein or the DUP to stir things up, it was to get their political objectives purely on their terms, thats what most people are like. These extremists parties were gradually brought in to the centre and the moderates like the SDLP and the UUP who had preached sense all along were then squeezed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Re Gaza I think Israel has lost any moral highground that they ever had, which is especially tragic considering Auschwitz, Belsen etc.
Because I feel it is relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim mcglinchey
I agree, but they did so in the full knowledge that these were extremist parties. This cannot be separated from the choices that people made. Of course, I do not deny their right to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim mcglinchey
Unfortunately, fences don't stop rockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by fousto
For us to have peace with Hamas would mean us packing up and leaving. Would you pack up?Quote:
Originally Posted by SOD
BTW Sean I hope you go in peace, 70 virgins and so on too, brother.
Ps saying the man who was killed in scum land was killed because of the retaliation is pure and utter BS. Had someone been killed a few days earlier due to the 60 rockets a day that were fired would that have been because of the retaliation too? Please.
Hamas is now getting what they had coming to them, I do feel sorry for the civilian casualties (thankfully relatively limited so far), though.
To say I'm not a fan of Hamas is putting it lightly, but although Hamas are taking a battering it's the many civilians that really suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
Arthur James Balfour has a lot to answer for.
I've read that the range of the Qassam rockets is only 12 km. You could move everybody 13 km away from the fence, then you wouldn't have to worry about them. Then you could only kill those who enter that safety zone between you and the fence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
Surprise of the ****en year...... they only serve to piss off and alienate the people who they fence in and make them want to shoot rockets at you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rani
True. Just like the "fence" around the Warzaw ghetto didn't stop people from trying an uprise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
well apparently Israel has had enough sh!t from Hamas and are going to crank it up. Good for Israel and after Hamas maybe they will go straight away to Iran. May as well take care of business while you still can. AS far civilians go Hamas doesn't give a sh!t how many they kill so this is what war is. It all started the Islams so it may as well end with them. Blowing up innocent people all over the world - Fuch these guys - get a gun and get after it!!
good example, but the cow seem to have forgot how it was when it was a calf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki