Freedom and equality (philosophy after lunch)

Recently I've had to prepare a document on provision of services to vulnerable groups of population. When the doc was being cleared by various offices, they required me to insert language that essentially mandated that each group achieve equal degree of well-being as a result of services provided to them. Equality of opportunities was not enough, I was told, as it may perpetuate the status quo and consolidate the gap in well-being between different demographics. I disagreed but complied, as it was useless to start a fight for many reasons. I concluded, however, that freedom and equality are not compatible. Freedom leads to competition, competition produces winners and losers who are not equal. If one needs equality, then he or she has to engineer it and impose it on others. Success is not guaranteed and then the proponent of equality might face discontent from those who think they could have been winners.

Wow....Some of us have interesting jobs....

OK, there are losers and winners but maybe at the beginning there was a equality of chances.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Freedom leads to competition, competition produces winners and losers who are not equal.

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Since we're at the after lunch hour of phylosophy:
I'm the eternal loser, I've always been, even when I wasn't free. Or does it mean that in order to don't be a loser I shouldn't be free?
But what is freedom? Freedom to....what? And don't we have different "tastes of freedom"? And should freedom be equally spread or according to our coverage with responsabilities? Shouldn't freedom be deserved, gained, lost, regained?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Recently I've had to prepare a document on provision of services to vulnerable groups of population. When the doc was being cleared by various offices, they required me to insert language that essentially mandated that each group achieve equal degree of well-being as a result of services provided to them. Equality of opportunities was not enough, I was told, as it may perpetuate the status quo and consolidate the gap in well-being between different demographics. I disagreed but complied, as it was useless to start a fight for many reasons. I concluded, however, that freedom and equality are not compatible. Freedom leads to competition, competition produces winners and losers who are not equal. If one needs equality, then he or she has to engineer it and impose it on others. Success is not guaranteed and then the proponent of equality might face discontent from those who think they could have been winners.

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You should stay quiet Rudy, even as much as I agree with your apparent disgust. There is a large US population that wants equality granted, no matter how little they try to achieve it.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

OK, there are losers and winners but maybe at the beginning there was a equality of chances.

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There in lies the bigger question: equality of chances - something that is very rare indeed - and starting with that common inequality premise, the winners are those that were provided a better chance.
. . . . and the losers: life sucks, then you die.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Since we're at the after lunch hour of phylosophy:
I'm the eternal loser, I've always been, even when I wasn't free. Or does it mean that in order to don't be a loser I shouldn't be free?
But what is freedom? Freedom to....what? And don't we have different "tastes of freedom"? And should freedom be equally spread or according to our coverage with responsabilities? Shouldn't freedom be deserved, gained, lost, regained?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:etc.

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I think all basic freedoms should be granted providing the persons with such freedom prove they are responsible enough to maintain it. Most societies will restrict freedoms via incarceration, limited job access, etc in the cases of people that don't play by the rules of society.

And to overcome the feeling of being the eternal loser, you must first convince yourself that you are capable of being more, if that is in fact what you desire. I stress the individual part of that statement, since "winning" and "losing" for many people are defined by expectations of society and not their true personal desires. As an example I know people who make very little money but are winners in my book and their own. I know very wealthy people that are losers in every sense of the word.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

There in lies the bigger question: equality of chances - something that is very rare indeed - and starting with that common inequality premise, the winners are those that were provided a better chance.
. . . . and the losers: life sucks, then you die.

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As much as I often agree with you Race, in this instance I can't. Though some gain unfair advantage to get ahead in life, that is by no wrong doing of their own in most cases.... it's simply an opportunity that came their way. I know a lot of people that had no more opportunity than the next guy but made the best of it also.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

As much as I often agree with you Race, in this instance I can't. Though some gain unfair advantage to get ahead in life, that is by no wrong doing of their own in most cases.... it's simply an opportunity that came their way. I know a lot of people that had no more opportunity than the next guy but made the best of it also.

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I agree with your premise - I'm one of those that had an opportunity and I made the best of it.
I also know of others that did not have that much of a chance but they made the best of it and are doing even doing better than I.

I was going with the premise that as opportunities go, the equality of such chances is very low indeed and thank goodness for human perseverance that we still have winners. I would prefer a more even playing field.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

. . . . and the losers: life sucks, then you die.

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Now I hope you guys willl finally understand my feelings

Freedom (ofcourse within the legal limitations) and equality of opportunities/chances can be granted in a well thought out system.
There is no way to grant equality, one of the reasons for this is that we are not born equal, no matter what some people like to claim/believe.

As for talking about freedom, not an easy task, because in a certain way and proportion we are all bound by laws, habits and feelings, not to mention indoctrination. The conclusion is that no one is nor could ever be 100% free.