M-Sport Ford World Rally Teams

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Neuville was at Hyundai already and the 2017 car was designed around him. (Some would say it still is and several other drivers have struggled with it over the years.)

Ogier had to adapt to the Fiesta from years at VW and developing their 2017 car. He got it to his liking but it was still an adaptable enough car for others to win rallies in it.

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It's hard to say that the car was designed around Neuville. Ofcourse he had an advantage vs Ogier going into the Fiesta blind, but Thierry was the last Hyundai driver to test the i20 because he took a while to commit his future to the team in 2016. Abbring, Sordo and Paddon etc all had tests before Hyundai let Neuville drive it. It's not like they designed the car specifically for Neuville when he potentially could've moved away.

The i20 definitely seemed the fastest car in the early part of the season, Neuville just blew two comfortable leads in Monte and Sweden. The fiesta was very good and had a wide operating window, but it wasn't the best car out of the blocks imo.

The beginning of 2017 was weird in the sense that the Fiesta seemed to be inomplete (Ogier had hydraulix issues, Tänak had weird engine issues and Evans had engine failure in Mexico), but still Ogier won his only two rallies of the season on the first and sixth events of the year. I would say it was more about Ogier's skill to take it easy and control the pace and let others fail in front of him. This was especially the case in Portugal. Also I would say Toyota was still underdeveloped in early 2017.

In the first half of 2017 "everyone" was fast with Hyundai. Paddon was a bit down after Monte, but by Sardinia he totally had the speed, same with Sordo. Later they started their back-and-forth aero changes and others improved.

Anyway back to the very start....

There is no guarantee Puma will be comparable to Toyota and Hyundai at start of 2022. 06' Focus and 11' Fiesta were fastest, 17' was comparable but not fastest.
It is possible, maybe even likely, but not guaranteed.

Let's put it in different words:

2022 Toyota is being developed by same people as current Toyota, with Ogier, Evans, Rovanpera and Hanninen driving. Seemingly lots of funding.

2022 Hyundai is being developed by mostly different people than 2017 car, including Loriaux who was involved with 2022 Puma before jumping ship and Tanak and Neuville driving. Seemingly lots of funding.

2022 Puma is being developed by reduced stafff compared with 2017 car, with Matt Wilson and Fourmaux driving. Limited funding.

Also good to remember that the 2017 cars were mainly test driven by

Hyundai - Kevin Abbring
Ford - Eric Camilli
Toyota - Juho Hänninen (and Tommi Mäkinen)
Citroen - Kris Meeke

Camilli? yeah he did develop it but not mainly as far as i know. Tänaks father said in one interview back in the day that Ott did most of the km's with it.

Also im not sure about Abbring with Hyundai? Hänninen and Meeke definitely were the main ones.

Why is ford hurting you so much? :D (mknight)

Ford won 2017 drivers and manus championship..
+ 18' WDC, can't really complain..

Endless budget doesn't always equal fast or reliable car..
Even after 4-5 years Hyundai has random cheap problems.

put Ogier or Tänak in Fiesta today and they will win stages/rallies with it..

It remains to be seen as well how reliable this hybrid system will be, and who makes best use of it, could have a big impact on results.
MSport/Ford have done very well at designing relatively benign cars at the start of new rule sets, which while the cars are under-developed (new) has helped them. The lack of budget has then obviously hindered the on going development of the car and they fall away from the pace. I’m not sure Ogier and Tanak would be winning rallies in today’s Fiesta, the other two cars have been extremely developed and are very fast, but we will never know now I guess.
Impossible to really predict what will happen this time, I’m sure we all hope the 3 cars are pretty equal and we get good competition.

With Ogier or Tanak at the wheel, the Fiesta would be a regular podium mainstay and you can take that to the bank. Drivers are the problem, not the car. It's 2016 all over again.

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Originally Posted by macebig

With Ogier or Tanak at the wheel, the Fiesta would be a regular podium mainstay and you can take that to the bank. Drivers are the problem, not the car. It's 2016 all over again.

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Not really comparable with 2016 for me.
Yes, Camilli’s season was a mess and the overall was disappointing.

But Ostberg did quite a good first half of season, he would have been second at the WDC ranking after Sardinia without an engine failure (especially interesting if we remember he didn’t have good roads position because of his consistency).
And Tanak was close to the win in Poland (yes, helped by D-Mack tyres but, on the other hand, these same tyres were a disadvantage on most of the rallies).
The second half was more complicated except Tanak in Wales but mostly because Ford put its means on the new car.

Here, the 2021 season is much more difficult so far and they have only made one podium on their last 20 rallyes (since Finland 2019) whereas they had a driver like Lappi last year (3 podiums even with the average Citroen in 2019).

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Originally Posted by TypeR

put Ogier or Tänak in Fiesta today and they will win stages/rallies with it..

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I don't believe this. They could get lucky podiums with problems from others, but that's all.

Fiesta fell of the wagon of development in the summer of 2018 when the big rear aeros started appearing. In the end they had to revert one homologation and it appears they never got the suspension working together with the bigger aero, like Hyundai and Toyota managed. And from 2019 onwards the development has been sparse compared to what they did with Ogier in the team.

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

I don't believe this. They could get lucky podiums with problems from others, but that's all.

Fiesta fell of the wagon of development in the summer of 2018 when the big rear aeros started appearing. In the end they had to revert one homologation and it appears they never got the suspension working together with the bigger aero, like Hyundai and Toyota managed. And from 2019 onwards the development has been sparse compared to what they did with Ogier in the team.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by TypeR

Why is ford hurting you so much? :D (mknight)

Ford won 2017 drivers and manus championship..
+ 18' WDC, can't really complain..

..

put Ogier or Tänak in Fiesta today and they will win stages/rallies with it..

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Past is past we are talking about now and future.

How do you explain Evans in Fiesta vs Toyota and comparably Lappi on podiums with Citroen and nowhere with Fiesta?

Both is 2019 vs 2020, the latest comparison possible as there were no driver changes from last year.


The most likely explanation is MSport not having money for testing/development. For example before Estonia 2020 they seemingly did zero development and no testing.

Ogier and Tanak winning rallies with zero testing sounds funny. Just a week ago Ogier said his bad performance on Ypres was partly cause he was testing on wrong type of road .


MSport can have genious designers, but little money only gets you so far.


I am not trying to say that MSport are bad, but I do challenge the "automatic" assumption that Puma will be one of the fastest cars. It might, but there is little guarantee.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Just a week ago Ogier said his bad performance on Ypres was partly cause he was testing on wrong type of road .

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You have to be critical about the wrong type of road comment. This has been used since Latvala became the team boss. This is just a silly excuse. For example after Artic we heard the same thing.

Yes but in this case it was true, the tested on a road which was just completely flat out, no bends where shifting down was necessary. It's like doing your test on an airfield. Difficult to test your setup for the tricky bends and junctions of Ypres like that.

In Arctic it felt more like they made a strategic decision to do a part of the test in Jyväskylä, where they can test without spending their yearly test days, and it was the wrong call.

didnt they test at both locations? Jyväskylä and also Arctic?

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Originally Posted by EstWRC

didnt they test at both locations? Jyväskylä and also Arctic?

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Yes

Right, it went like this: Toyota tested in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi, Hyundai tested in Rovaniemi and did a winter rally in Estonia. The tests in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi were in -20 C, whereas the rally in Estonia was close to zero temperatures, which was how Arctic Rally Finland turned out as well, that's how Hyundai got their advantage.

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc...et-up-mistake/

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

Right, it went like this: Toyota tested in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi, Hyundai tested in Rovaniemi and did a winter rally in Estonia. The tests in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi were in -20 C, whereas the rally in Estonia was close to zero temperatures, which was how Arctic Rally Finland turned out as well, that's how Hyundai got their advantage.

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc...et-up-mistake/

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Not only that but Hyundai also managed to get rid of rear bumpers thus saving weight

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Suninen leaves M-Sport...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/sunin...ediate-effect/

A good choice, Fiesta is not a car to be competitve to others, no reason to stay...

If they found a solution to be in other teams... A good choice. Lets see, we get the news when Teemu starts another team ...

Breen to drive Ford for two years....

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Originally Posted by drive

Breen to drive Ford for two years....

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Says who? ;)

As a rumor only, we know already

2 year deal would makes sense for both Breen and Msport. He deserves back to back full seasons, have that bit of security about his future and get the chances given to other drivers.

For Msport, it gives them protection from Hyundai or Toyota picking Breen up at the end of next season (if Craig was to have a breakout year like Evans did in 2020).

Nothing announced yet, but don't think we will have to wait much longer....

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

Says who? ;)

As a rumor only, we know already

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WRC_TV_ITALY says its a done-deal with an official announcement very soon.

I find it really strange they would announce it before Finland and even stranger they (Hyundai) would let him test Puma before Finland.

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Originally Posted by mknight

I find it really strange they would announce it before Finland and even stranger they (Hyundai) would let him test Puma before Finland.

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Very odd…why would MSport let him test their new car before he has finished with Hyundai?

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Originally Posted by doubled1978

Very odd…why would MSport let him test their new car before he has finished with Hyundai?

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Do you think many drivers ever signed up with a team before having driven the car?

Citroen specifically didn't allow Ogier to test C3 without signing at end of 2016...and he was 4 times world champion.

Now with new and very different rules I would imagine all teams are being protective. Don't think Breen is in a position to demand a test beforehand.

Anyway I was thinking mostly the other way, why should Hyundai be interested in making it simpler for MSport to fight against them as long as Breen works for them? (Also "distracting" Breen right before he has a jobb to do for them).

Sure it might happen, but the most natural timing both for announcement and test is after Finland.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

WRC_TV_ITALY says its a done-deal with an official announcement very soon.

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The original post is from here:

https://instagram.com/msportrallyfan...dium=copy_link

Quoted from the Barum thread...

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Originally Posted by er88

I agree with Mirek, and you also have to consider who is actually more attractive right now to Msport (or Hyundai for the 3rd car) than Breen? Nobody.

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Also, if M-Sport is still in the WRC to theoretically sell Rally2/3/4s to customers, having Breen on the team might actually encourage a few more cars sales in Ireland, probably unlike any other driver would in other nations. The Irish are great, very patriotic supporters of rallying. I could see the Motorsport Ireland Rally Academy fully embracing M-Sport products, for example.

I don't find it strange that Breen can be signed by MSport. I do find it strange it would be announced and he would drive Puma after Acropolis and before Finland.

All this is just speculation, but I would still expect Breen to drive the Puma for the 1st time after Finland as well. However we haven't seen his contract and it might not be as watertight as full time drivers contracts can be. Is he on a pay-per-event deal or a yearly contract?

I think Malcolm let Ogier have a run in the C3 while he was under contract at Msport iirc (although that was probably with the hope Ogier would be put off by the C3).

If Msport will be running the Puma in Greece after the Acropolis, maybe Adamo has just taken the view of what difference does it really make if he let's Breen drive the car? Breen is going there anyway and will test the car soon enough regardless, and it's not like Breen is NOT going to be fully motivated to end his Hyundai career on a high in Finland. If Adamo was pissed at his elite drivers Tanak or Neuville leaving to Msport, maybe he would block a test in that case, but Breen? That's a bit different.

Finland is likely Breen's last event with Hyundai, quite likely the contract is announced after that. He might still get to do a secret test beforehand. Could also be that Hyundai ties him to the end of the year instead of letting him test the car freely before the end of the year.

Connected with that is that I find it strange MSport would test the Puma again barely 2-3 weeks after testing in Sardinia (gravel) and France (tarmac).

Anyway if Breen is leaving, I'd say Adamo has all kinds of reasons to be pissed, cause he has a real problem finding a driver for next year that won't make the team much weaker than this year.
No way Solberg is able to fight for podiums regularly next year, like Breen was (on the selected rallies), but it will likely end that way because nobody else will fit and be interested:
- Lappi would fit, but if given the choice he for sure will rather go to Toyota.
- Mikkelsen at Hyundai imo won't happen unless Adamo leaves as rumored.
- Suninnen? that's a bit long shot right now, maybe if he does well in Finland + at least one other rally before the end of the year
- the way Huttunen is threated by Adamo I doubt he will even get a chance to drive the WRC next year on some event

Anyway at least this would still apply for basically anyone but Sordo:

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Adamo Says
'All I want next year is to nots keep hearing drivers saying - All I want is a full season next year'
#AdamoSays next year #WRC

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https://twitter.com/AdamoSays

Would be more logical to see Breen leaving and testing after Finland (especially with Spain and Monza remaining where Sordo would be more logical) but as it is human relations, it is always difficult to know.
Maybe that Hyundai considers that Breen is absolutely not a title contender on a full-time season because of his results with Citroen so they don’t care of him testing early if he has decided to leave.
Maybe it is to make some money savings for the last months of his contract.
Maybe it is to thank him for the job done.
Maybe it is to keep good relations with M-Sport for the future (Fourmaux?)
It may also help to test another driver in one of the two last rallies.

About his replacement at Hyundai, I’m not that worried for them as opportunities exists (then, the question will be if they choose the good one): Sordo remains a good option for a shared car and almost all the drivers available have a good complementarity with him for a shared car so it is a good basis to begin with (all the more with a Neuville-Tanak duo in the other cars).

Mikkelsen and Ostberg are experienced drivers and remained in WRC-2, their last part-time season in WRC was rather good (Ostberg 2018 and Mikkelsen 2019) and they are quite equal (they could take Ostberg if Mikkelsen signs with M-Sport with Breen); the only difference is that Mikkelsen knows Hyundai.
I think the situation is different than 2 years ago for Mikkelsen and Hyundai as they may need each other (for Mikkelsen, not finding a job in Rally1 next year would probably mean he will never come back).

Suninen is a bet but the fact of having Sordo may lower the risk. Let’s see what he does on Finland.

For Solberg, too early as you said but maybe Adamo has already make the choice.

They could also attempt a huge offer for Lappi (2 years contract full-time for exemple) which may beat Toyota (who gives only one-year part-time as they think about Katsuta for 2023). But if they have not do it for Breen, I don’t think they will do it for Lappi.

For sure we don't know details of driver contracts but normally full time / full season driver is contracted until Dec 31st. This might not be the case for Breen who has been offered by Hyundai only 2-5 WRC events per season. So I'm quite sure there won't be any issues for him to test Puma Rally1 car soon.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Anyway if Breen is leaving, I'd say Adamo has all kinds of reasons to be pissed, cause he has a real problem finding a driver for next year that won't make the team much weaker than this year.

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I'm not sure how pissed he can be though. This situation is his doing, so if he is pissed surely he can only really be pissed at himself?

If he was desperate to keep Breen he could've offered him a full time seat in the last few months (and I'm sure Breen would've signed - Breen has mentioned numerous times how happy he is within the team - besides being part time).

So no reason to be pissed at Breen for taking a full time seat and potentially the security of a 2yr deal, or any reason to be pissed at Msport. It's not like Malcolm has pinched Tanak or Neuville from Hyundai. So what real harm would actually come from "maybe" allowing Breen and Msport to do one test while in Greece?

Adamo seems to make split decisions based on his mood quite often, sometimes also seemingly illogical ones, so just about anything is possible.

Anyway I feel there is something more to the story, hopefully we will get details at some point. (also still a bit early to speculate too much with no confirmation).

Fourmaux splits partnership with Jamoul. Gilsoul next codriver?

What's up with these sudden co-driver changes? Quite insane amount of changes recently

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