What Happens Next?

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Originally Posted by indycool

Colt, you're still just plain inaccurate.

CART used the name Indy car for their cars right out of the box at their opener in Phoenix. Even though it went back and forth for a couple years whether CART would pay points for the Indianapolis 500 or not, and some CART people wanted to call it the CART PPG Indy Car World Series, it never was officially so because PPG bought the series rights and insisted otherwise.

While the points decision was the leverage CART used against PPG, PPG went to IMS and made the deal for the $100,000 pole award, $5,000 for each starter in the "500" and rings for all 33 starters in the "500," becoming the largest corporate sponsor of the "500." The $5,000 for each starter was similar to and formatted the same as the $3,000-plus PPG put in the purse for EVERY CART race at the time. And they announced at the time that points would be paid and they'd be PPG Indy Car World Series points.

The late Jim Chapman, representing PPG, outflanked CART's John Frasco, and CART couldn't gripe because PPG was giving it a TON of money. Some CART people, including Frasco, were livid because they wanted to bring IMS to its knees and make the "500" a CART race but had to stew in their own juices because Chapman's agreement in Indy fizzled out any leverage for a split. THEN came what some call CART's glory years.

Later, Chapman retired, then passed away and PPG Automotive Finishes head Fred Rhue retired and PPG eased out of the sport, but deserves all the credit for holding the sport together without a split in the '80s.

The use of the term "Indy car" was suspended for five years from EITHER series' use as part of the settlement of a lawsuit, I believe, in December of 1997. After that five-year period, the IRL could use it and CART could not as part of the settlement. That's when CART started developing the name Champ Car.

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CART trademarked Champcar, Champ Car World Series and several other variants in 1997 shortly after I had started using champcar.com. Andrew Graig asked me about it once and I explained that I had it registered before their trade mark. But they had intentions of using the name Champ Car for quite a while. What was it 2003 when they officially named the series Champ Car World Series?

[quote=indycool]Colt, you're still just plain inaccurate.

CART used the name Indy car for their cars right out of the box at their opener in Phoenix. Even though it went back and forth for a couple years whether CART would pay points for the Indianapolis 500 or not, and some CART people wanted to call it the CART PPG Indy Car World Series, it never was officially so because PPG bought the series rights and insisted otherwise.[quote=indycool]

PPG NEVER bought the series. You continue to ignore the facts, and are very confused. CART, was CART. Owned by the owners, with CART franhices being issued, right out of the box. PPG did NOT own anything.

PPG paid to be the title sponsor for the CART PPG series. The series, in an agreement with the speedway, changed the name to the PPG indycar Series, again still owned by CART.

[quote=indycool]While the points decision was the leverage CART used against PPG, PPG went to IMS and made the deal for the $100,000 pole award, $5,000 for each starter in the "500" and rings for all 33 starters in the "500," becoming the largest corporate sponsor of the "500." The $5,000 for each starter was similar to and formatted the same as the $3,000-plus PPG put in the purse for EVERY CART race at the time. And they announced at the time that points would be paid and they'd be PPG Indy Car World Series points..[quote=indycool]

If you look at PPG's involvement, they actually paid sponsorship and contigency money to teams at Indy, even before becoming the series sponsor for CART/Indycar. While a corporate sponsor for CART, they also were a Corporate sponsor for the Indy 500. Again, they never owend anything, nore did they try and leverage anything. TV ratings were good for CART and the 500, and they were marketing their products.

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Originally Posted by indycool

The late Jim Chapman, representing PPG, outflanked CART's John Frasco, and CART couldn't gripe because PPG was giving it a TON of money. Some CART people, including Frasco, were livid because they wanted to bring IMS to its knees and make the "500" a CART race but had to stew in their own juices because Chapman's agreement in Indy fizzled out any leverage for a split. THEN came what some call CART's glory years...

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Originally Posted by "indycool":3o3clam1

The 500, was a CART race from 1979-1995. There were a few years there were no ponints and a few years with double points, but CART raced at Indy under USAC. The cars and teams, save for the Indy only teams, were from CART. There was no leveraging, or battles with PPG.

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Originally Posted by "indycool":3o3clam1

Later, Chapman retired, then passed away and PPG Automotive Finishes head Fred Rhue retired and PPG eased out of the sport, but deserves all the credit for holding the sport together without a split in the '80s....

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Originally Posted by "indycool":3o3clam1

The PPG got out after Fed Ex came in to pay more money for the title sponsorship.

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Originally Posted by "indycool":3o3clam1

The use of the term "Indy car" was suspended for five years from EITHER series' use as part of the settlement of a lawsuit, I believe, in December of 1997. After that five-year period, the IRL could use it and CART could not as part of the settlement. That's when CART started developing the name Champ Car.

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[/quote:3o3clam1][/quote:3o3clam1][/quote:3o3clam1][/quote:3o3clam1]

I think you have this part correct, as CART was called Indycar, based on a mutual agreement with the speedway. After the split, the speedway did not continue the mutual licensing agreement, and CART agreed to stop using the term Indycar. And, after five years, bla bla...

Your original post indicated that PPG owned CART, and that CART was never called Indycar. Both those statements are false.

G'night.

EE, I think you misread IC post. He never said PPG owned the series. I'm not sure where you made that connection.

And the Indy 500 was NEVER a CART race. Never. Not from 1979 to 1995. Not ever. CART NEVER sanctioned the race, USAC did, as you noted. When CART teams ran the 500, they did so under USAC sanction. For that event, they were USAC teams and cars, not CART teams and cars. Note that the 500 field during those years was made up, in part, of teams that were NOT CART teams. The cars carried USAC tech inspection stickers. They were governed by USAC rules. CART officials had absolutely NO governance at the Indy 500.

A number of drivers from various series raced at Daytona at the Rolex two weeks ago. That doesn't mean the race was anything but a Grand Am sanctioned race. The other series can't claim it.

nanders/EE,

To your points:

--The Indy Racing League and CART did NOT use the term Indy car to describe the cars or title their series for five years as settlement of a lawsuit. As far as your description of 10 years goes, the IRL did not use ICS until it formed the Indy Pro Series, THEN it called the IRL the Indy Car Series as both fell under the IRL banner.

--I never said PPG owned CART. I said PPG BOUGHT the title of the series as part of its sponsorship. There WAS no CART PPG series or PPG Indycar series. It was the PPG Indy Car World Series. Except for the Indianapolis 500, it was true that CART owned the series as a car owners organization. CART never sanctioned nor played any part in the Indianapolis 500, which was sanctioned by USAC. Indeed, the only matters discussed between CART and USAC officials were on safety and technical matters. CART never raced at Indy. CART's TEAMS raced at Indy as part of the series. CART itself, as an organization, was NEVER called Indycar.

--The "500" was a USAC race from 1979-1997, after which it became an IRL race. It was NOT a CART race.

--There were NONE of those years in which double points were paid, either when CART denied points for the "500" or when the PPG Indy Car World Series came together. USAC had a point system by which the number of points was based on the distance of the race. CART had several different point systems, but the PPG Indy Car World Series used those for all events. There were two, and perhaps three years in the early '80s where CART points were not paid until Mr. Chapman made the arrangements with IMS in 1984 to make the "500" a part of the series.

--I have no idea whether FedEx paid more than PPG or not. I DO know that PPG did it like Winston did with NASCAR and told CART and the Speedway it would continue to sponsor for awhile until they found another sponsor but they wanted to bow out.

--Yes, PPG was a smaller contingency sponsor at Indy prior to series sponsorship.

--I repeat: As part of a settlement of a lawsuit shortly after the split, BOTH series were not permitted to use the term Indy Car for five years.

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Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

Chaparral and IndyCool, please get stated on the plan. Then we can all go to the kart track in Indy and celebrate with a little four wheeled aggression. I will probably get tossed for bumping but it will be fun anyhow.

In my my mind, the argument that the split ended ended in 2004 is off a bit just like the argument the OWRS incarnation of ChampCar carries on the traditions of American Open Wheel Racing. Both fall short of the truth.

I also think that The Amigos (except for one) are opportunistic "foreign fighters" who are keeping this tragic and devastating civil war going for reasons that have nothing to do with the best interests of the people in the nation in which the war is being fought. They still ride on a red tide of hate and fear because those are the only things left to save them. But the tide is going out now. The OWRS owners have all but lost this war yet they just won't admit it because some of them have checkbooks to match their needy egos. That won't go on forever. The truth is that the reasons for the split have shifted and the differences between what CART was and IndyCar is have diminished. Spite is all that keeps the war going now that the commercial proposition of the Amigo's vision for the Champ Car World Series has been largely invalidated.

On the subject of truth, I think it is interesting that the truth about the comparative lap times between an IRL car and a ChampCar at Sebring this past week has not surfaced. Someone should look deeper for the answer. I hear the lap times were very close. If indeed so, a few folks here won't be able to handle the truth because it punctures their elitist bubble. I looked back in this thread at the haughty and indignant reaction to the fact that the lap times for Champ Cars (the last time they ran) and Indy Cars at Mid Ohio and Milwaukee were virtually the same and I chuckled. Horror of horrors! Another reason to hate bites the dust.

What I am getting at, and Chaparrall66 has touched on it, is that we all have more in common than some want us to realize. I am neither a "ChampCar-World-Series-guy" nor an "IndyCar-Series-guy". I am a "One-Sport-Will-Be-Better-Than-This-Nightmare-Guy. Common sense tells me that I am not alone.

So, the point of this thread is what happens next. I hope that a wave of common sense and compassion for the fans sweeps over the warring factions in this sport. I also hope that the wave touches us here. We are all passionate nut cases on this board and this is proven by the things we focus on. The average fan could care less about the leaders, the politics or the the business side. They just want the sport to be better than it is and that starts with having one series with all the best drivers, teams and tracks. My feeling is that this will happen within a year because there is no good reason that this should go on any longer. We are down to a pathetic six US races (three of which likely pay little or no sanction fee), a 14-18 car field of spec racers and only seven confirmed drivers two months before Long Beach. This is not progress -- no matter how much happy spin Mark C. or Sanguin put out.

To me, the situation with Walker is a sign that this is not making sense any longer. I don't buy all the explanations. He is a racer of the first order and he has a driver and team that are true championship contenders. His absence at Sebring says to me that he either has no money to go racing or that he has lost faith in ChampCar. Think about what happens next if either or both of those things are true.

Also reflect on the number of posts and replies to this one thread. From my perspective, the nearly nine hundred replies and over 36,000 views gives a very strong clue as to what everyone is really thinking.

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Excellent post, CW. Plenty of food for thought here.

What I don't get, or maybe I don't need to get, is that how these fanatics are so "not into" merger with the IRL for the sake of the motorsport when even the loyalist in CC such as Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser, and team owners have put their anti-IRL agenda aside just to save the sport. I probably feel the same way that they would rather ran with TG than going another joke series with the amigos. Am I a pro-IRL? Of course not. But I'm just like pro-merger with mostly everyone here, the media, the manufacturers, sponsors, promoters and the people who actually associated in CC and IRL.

Ah, I think I get it....because if there's a merger, these fnatics will have nothing to cheer or chant about. What would happen to the CC fanatics forum? I'm here keeping an eye on that one. Oh by the way, they removed that infamous introduction coz either we make fun of it a lot or maybe finally the moderator came to his senses. Nah, I doubt it. These guys are too old to change their views.

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Originally Posted by Cart750hp

What I don't get, or maybe I don't need to get, is that how these fanatics are so "not into" merger with the IRL for the sake of the motorsport when even the loyalist in CC such as Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser, and team owners have put their anti-IRL agenda aside just to save the sport. I probably feel the same way that they would rather ran with TG than going another joke series with the amigos. Am I a pro-IRL? Of course not. But I'm just like pro-merger with mostly everyone here, the media, the manufacturers, sponsors, promoters and the people who actually associated in CC and IRL.

Ah, I think I get it....because if there's a merger, these fnatics will have nothing to cheer or chant about. What would happen to the CC fanatics forum? I'm here keeping an eye on that one. Oh by the way, they removed that infamous introduction coz either we make fun of it a lot or maybe finally the moderator came to his senses. Nah, I doubt it. These guys are too old to change their views.

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Great post. It looks like it may be closing time at the ****wagon Bar & Grill. I wouldn't want to be there when they turn on the lights.

One series is the only way. Business is like nature. Only the swift or the strong survive. No amount or spin or hate can change that.

I do wonder what our pal Sanguin will do if ChampCar goes the way of Motorock. I think the Amigo's won't have room for everyone on their G5s.

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Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

Great post. It looks like it may be closing time at the ****wagon Bar & Grill. I wouldn't want to be there when they turn on the lights.

One series is the only way. Business is like nature. Only the swift or the strong survive. No amount or spin or hate can change that.

I do wonder what our pal Sanguin will do if ChampCar goes the way of Motorock. I think the Amigo's won't have room for everyone on their G5s.

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Looking forward to 0.9 ratings, eh ? How much can spin or hate change the fact that the IRL has had 12 years of declining tv ratings and attendance ? Some of you, me thinks, are fooling yourselves and will be greatly disappointed .... will Cheever and Menard have room for you ? Will you join the Amigos, then ? Or will you move to Nascar when Vasser, Tracy, NHL et al move there too ?

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Originally Posted by Jacques

Looking forward to 0.9 ratings, eh ? How much can spin or hate change the fact that the IRL has had 12 years of declining tv ratings and attendance ? Some of you, me thinks, are fooling yourselves and will be greatly disappointed .... will Cheever and Menard have room for you ? Will you join the Amigos, then ? Or will you move to Nascar when Vasser, Tracy, NHL et al move there too ?

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Jacques, Actually, I look forward to something other than product confusion and the constant spew of delusional BS from the fanatics on either end of The Split spectrum.

Okay. We get it, you think that the IRL will fail. Who knows? They very well might but that does not offset the fact that the CART/ChampCar business model has already failed once and is apparently about to do so again.

Go ahead, get mad if you want to but it won't change the truth that the OWRS era was a huge disappointment and will most likely end up as a smoking crater on the global sporting landscape.

What happens next is not about racing or hurt feelings. It is about business, or more precisely, the lack of it in the ChampCar World Series. The death certificate will probably state the cause of death as: "Total loss of credibility caused by chronic arrogance, a prolonged lack of honesty and operating a business while under the influence of extremists."

There will be a brief moment of silence followed by The March Of The Penguins and life will go on for most of us who actually care more about the sport than we do about getting even with someone's grandson in Indiana.

Here is the latest from Robin Miller on the What Happens Next front:

Is Open-Wheel Peace Finally at Hand?

Written by: Robin Miller
02/07/2008 - 10:45 PM
Indianapolis, Ind.

All together now? The Indy 500 could benefit from an influx of teams and drivers, but the benefits of a unified series would extend far beyond the 500. (LAT photo)n » More Photos
The long, costly war between Champ Car and the Indy Racing League is close to being over and, for the first time since 1995, there could be one open wheel series for 2008. But there’s still one major hurdle to overcome to make this long-awaited union a reality.

SPEED has learned that Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe, the co-owners of Champ Car, have reached an agreement with IRL founder Tony George to race together this season.
As reported by SPEEDtv.com recently, George offered the Champ Car ownership free Dallara chassis and Honda engines to any CC team that signs up for the full season in addition to receiving $1.2 million per car as part of the IRL’s new TEAM program. Additionally, the Champ Car races at Long Beach, Edmonton and Surfer’s Paradise, Australia would be added to the ’08 IndyCar Series schedule.

However, it’s not quite that easy.

The IRL race at Motegi, Japan is scheduled to run April 18-20 which is the same weekend as the Long Beach Grand Prix. Jim Michaelian, the longtime LBGP president and general manager, says the most successful street race in North America is locked into its date and cannot be moved due to prior contract commitment with the Long Beach Convention Center (which anchors the track).

Motegi, owned by Honda of Japan, also faces some challenges in re-scheduling so Honda’s Robert Clarke, Champ Car’s Dick Eidswick, Kalkhoven and George are desperately trying to find a solution.

“It’s as close as it’s ever been to being together, but we don’t know if we can get across the goal line,” said George on Thursday evening. “But no one is giving up yet.”

Added Kalkhoven: “Both sides want this to happen very much and we’re working on it.”

Supposedly, the Motegi people were agreeable to moving back one week, which is currently the date for the IRL race at Kansas City. The ISC-owned facility reportedly declined the request because it’s already a sellout for the NASCAR/IRL package.

Clarke, the former leader of Honda Performance Development who tried to put the two sides together in 2006 along with Mario Andretti, might have to travel with George to Japan this weekend to try and find a solution while Eidswick works on Champ Car’s options.

Drivers, mechanics and owners in Champ Car learned of this amalgamation after returning from a test last week at Sebring, Fla. As expected, most were happy to hear about unification even though it means their current Panoz chassis would be rendered show cars.

“It’s not a bad deal but you’ll still need some money,” said Derrick Walker, whose Indy-based team started in 1990. “You have to have two car configurations (oval and road course), the crash damage is higher with ovals and it’s a big fat schedule. It’s going to be a rough old ride for our Champ Car teams because we don’t have the familiarity with the Dallaras but the bottom line is that it’s a great gesture to put this thing together.”

Jimmy Vasser, who is part owner of PKV Racing, echoed Walker’s sentiments.

“There’s been a lot of silence lately so, if this is true, this is what needs to happen,” said the 1996 CART champion. “It’s a very good day for motor racing.”

Paul Newman was ecstatic upon hearing of the proposal. “I feel like I died and wrent to heaven,” said the co-owner of Champ Car’s winningest team along with Carl Haas and Mike Lanigan. “This is the best news I’ve heard in a long time.”

Some smaller Champ Car owners like Eric Bachelart were shocked to hear of such a plan at this late date.

“Are you kidding me?” said Bachelart, whose Indy-based Conquest Racing just signed rookie Franck Perera. “I just spent a million dollars on a new car and spare parts and this news hurts because I know the value of money. I’m all for one series but I wish it would be 2009.”

It’s believed there are over 50 Dallara chassis, new and used, available to be dispersed among the CCWS teams.

Since winning CART’s assets in bankruptcy court in 2004, Kalkhoven and Forsythe have spent millions on television, promoting races, propping up teams and payroll. They also own Cosworth and Pi, plus the rejuvenated Atlantic series. It’s not certain what would happen with the Atlantic series as the IRL has its own feeder system with the Indy Pro Series. But there were 24 cars at Wednesday’s Atlantic test in Sebring and it would make a strong support race for any series.

George has also spent millions on his league and this union would assure Indy-car racing of stronger fields, deeper competition and hopefully a much larger entry list at the Indianapolis 500.

It also means young stars Graham Rahal and Marco Andretti can now race on the same track along with Justin Wilson and Dan Wheldon while veterans Helio Castroneves, Tony Kanaan and Paul Tracy would be reunited.

“I think we’d all be happy if we’re back together and the fans would be happy to see all the best drivers in one race,” said Tracy, the 2003 CART champion who hasn’t competed at Indy since his controversial second place finish in 2002.

“We’ll be at a disadvantage to the IRL teams the first year but such is life. Getting everybody back under one roof is what needs to happen.”