Rally Guanajuato Mexico 2013

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coach 2

Now I too am one of many, too, and I can not see it so clearly. And if the whole secret to VW, longer suspension travel, and this is so clear, then the other teams have solved that problem to the next race.

---

I stated part of it not all. I think in the past Citroen had to do very little to stay ahead of the game. Not so now. It won't have escaped them that the VW might be a better handling car as well as perhaps more powerful?

Put it another way, forget the technical explanations and think for a moment which to you 'looks right'. If you think the VW looks in better shape than the Citroen as I do (Citroen is clearly more sideways and has less rubber in contact with the surface), then it is not hard to imagine the VW went round the corner a tenth or two of a second faster. Now add that for all corners of a stage, then all corners of a rally and what do you get? So longer suspension travel could easily be a significant factor, if not the whole story, at this level of competition.

The proof will come if Citroen see something in it and adopt longer travel in future gravel rallies, I'll be watching out for it, all part of the fun of the sport!

PS Hirvonen said himself he needs to drive less sideways to challenge Ogier, there is technique issue as well, but it is clear to me from the picture the VW helps the driver more than the Citroen to achieve that goal.

from one picture you cant have conclusions.Also dont forget that fiesta has also bigger suspension travel from ds3.

Also I know Ogier's driving style, it doesn't impose braking in the corner in any case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dimviii

from one picture you cant have conclusions.Also dont forget that fiesta has also bigger suspension travel from ds3.

---

These are not the only pictures I've been looking at, there are plenty available demonstrating what good shape the VW is in when cornering, particularly with Ogier at the wheel. I know Ogier is quick but 3 minutes quicker over a rally should get people looking into things and maybe learning along the way what VW have been getting up to ;)

I started what I didn't even want :) No matter the situation on the photo it's fact VW has longer travel. What are the benefits and disadvantages is an interesting question for me and I don't care if we continue about that. But I would surely not overestimated one particular photo, that was just a random thing I found particularly interesting going through photos of André - in the end it might be like the discussion in Swedish topic about Ogier/JML in the same corner. Just remember ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OldF

I don’t think the suspension travel is so important in cornering because due to weight transfer the outer wheels have to take care of the traction. Of course it’ always better to have all the four wheels on the ground instead of having one wheel in the air.

---

It is important because the traction of an axle depends on the wheel with lesser load. Limited slip differential can't lock completely and therefore one wheel in the air must reduce the torque on the other as well. If You make the same with normal car without LSD You would just spin the inner wheel in the air and You would not accelerate at all.

The other thing is that there is some limit for lateral forces the tyres are able to cope with. If You have a wheel in the air it means the lateral force on those on the ground is higher - You have either smaller cornering speed or You loose time sliding sideways. The situation is the worse that car kicked in the air has higher center of gravity and the load on outer wheels is therefore further increased.

Just thinking loud here, feel free to tell me if it's BS :)

But there was sure a good point from Bluuford about the vulnerability of long struts. That sure is more risky. I also remember when they first brought Fiesta S2000 here in CZ. That time it was the only car with extremely long suspension travel (who would think VW will go even further). On our extremely bumpy asphalt they had huge problems to make a suitable setup. The asphalt suspension settings of M-Sport were useless because especially in braking the car was very hard to control sliding over the sumpguard. The problem was that when they made the ground clearance higher the suspension became very soft and unstable for competing on asphalt. I don't know how it was later solved with Prokop/Tarabus but I clearly remember the initial issues resulting in many hot moments.

By the way even last year Flodin with PS Engineering Fiesta touched ground very frequently in Barum rally...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sprocket

These are not the only pictures I've been looking at, there are plenty available demonstrating what good shape the VW is in when cornering, particularly with Ogier at the wheel. I know Ogier is quick but 3 minutes quicker over a rally should get people looking into things and maybe learning along the way what VW have been getting up to ;)

---

you keep comparing Ogier with Mikko,and you make conclusions about polo vs ds3....

Yep we should keep in mind this 'between rally' nattering and not life and death stuff lol.

The thought that crossed my mind was how come Loeb was doing well with what I would presume was the same set-up last year on the Citroen, surely if it wasn't working good Citroen would have known? Or would he have trailed Ogier this year? It is kind of killing me we will never know as there seems little hope of a fight this year between the Sebs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dimviii

you keep comparing Ogier with Mikko,and you make conclusions about polo vs ds3....

---

What other benchmarks do we have right now? Should I compare Sordo to Latvala in Mexico?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

in the end it might be like the discussion in Swedish topic about Ogier/JML in the same corner. Just remember ;) .

---

very well said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

It is important because the traction of an axle depends on the wheel with lesser load. Limited slip differential can't lock completely and therefore one wheel in the air must reduce the torque on the other as well. If You make the same with normal car without LSD You would just spin the inner wheel in the air and You would not accelerate at all.

---

Mirek just a correction here....plated lsd diffs can transfer plenty of torque even when you have one wheel of the ground.Some other type lsd diffs like torsen yes they cant transfer torque when we have one wheel in the air.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sprocket

What other benchmarks do we have right now? Should I compare Sordo to Latvala in Mexico?

---

i ve said that hyenas waiting for Argentina ;)