Toyota announces WRC plans

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

That last bit is kinda of hard to swallow..espeically when you have F-cup which has such good drivers---and dozens of them---scores of them..
In all of "not even starting to develop country' USA with maybe 300-320 total drivers from a population of 320 million, the best USA can do in the best car a guy can buy (because to get better you will not buy the car, they give you the car) is slower than your best F-cup guys.

If Finland has does anything wrong in rally, they made the same mistake as everybody else and listened to marketing and promotion guys and believed them when they said promotion is the key to happiness..

Competition is the key...frequent, hard challenging, close competition...

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Nowadays F-cup is like a shadow comparing to the glory days... And the level of competition is...hmm...well, few champions of the F-cup have said that they realized the difference of driving fast and "driving fast" when they changed to the rallies with the pace notes. It's a little bit different story to drive rally at the blind event when you know the road and the others don't. That's maybe one big issue for the Finns that most of the rallies are blind events and many of the drivers thinks that the pace notes are too difficult for them and that's why they prefer blind events.

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Originally Posted by giù tutto!

Nowadays F-cup is like a shadow comparing to the glory days... And the level of competition is...hmm...well, few champions of the F-cup have said that they realized the difference of driving fast and "driving fast" when they changed to the rallies with the pace notes. It's a little bit different story to drive rally at the blind event when you know the road and the others don't. That's maybe one big issue for the Finns that most of the rallies are blind events and many of the drivers thinks that the pace notes are too difficult for them and that's why they prefer blind events.

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How can we make this so its something to do with Toyota, when I am much more interested in F-cup and Grupp H i grannlandet? When was the glory days of F-cup? And why is it no longer as great as it was? Is it like a mini-crisis in the rising of costs for cars and prep---like WRC has suffered from since Whirled Rally Carz rules broke the connection to reality and the ability of low level competitors like me of ever even imagine being in a car with suspension and brakes like the baddest cars? (How was that for a stretch to link F-cup and Toyota in return to the
Whirled Rally Champignonskit? Pretty god, eh?)

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

Finnish gravel roads ar not just "Finnish gravel roads." They have huge differences in character, just drive Ouininpuhja and You'll see that even there it changes a lot.
And Finnish gravel roads have another advantage, there are ha HUGE number of them close to the factory.



As I have understood it the person in question has had a big role in the Finnish WRC round, which is by far the most succesfull in the WRC. That can't be bad?
Timo Jouhki has off course been important for several Finnish Champions (but not all). But whit out the work of the Finnish ASN it would be no rally drivers to choose from. Timo Joukhi doesn't arrange rallies, get volunteers to be time keepers, arrange parking on rally events, see that there are regulations like the popular Group F that promotes rally (or ralli) as a big sport, etc etc.
Both the Finnish ASN and the organisers are very important, and they have done a really really good job.



Not by a mile. Finland is the only country in the World where Rally is seen as a national sport. The only two countries I can think of that actually come close is Barbados and Ireland.
Though France has had two great champions, rally by no means a competitor of bigger sports like soccer.

Finland is the rally capital of the world, and by being that, and a country that can manage huge technological engineering feats (like Nokia), Finland can be a great place to run a rally team from.

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No it isnt. I have lot of friend in the Capital area who do not care or do not even know anything about rally. Seen too many such kind of people that I lost my faith in finnish rallying ;)


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Originally Posted by cali

No it isnt. I have lot of friend in the Capital area who do not care or do not even know anything about rally. Seen too many such kind of people that I lost my faith in finnish rallying ;)


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Hopefully those who works with rallying know a lot, in Finland or wherever.

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

Hopefully those who works with rallying know a lot, in Finland or wherever.

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For sure they do, but rallying is not a huge sport in Finland as per my experience.

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Originally Posted by cali

No it isnt. I have lot of friend in the Capital area who do not care or do not even know anything about rally. Seen too many such kind of people that I lost my faith in finnish rallying ;)

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How much an average French person knows about rallying? Or Brit? Or German? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying such as competing on closed roads from A to B. Rallying is just F1 with somewhat different cars to them, had they noticed this sport at all.

I've heard that if you go around from door to door in Zlin, most likely every other family is somewhat connected to rallying or have some other relation to the sport. Do that in Jämsä (Central Finland), and you have similar response. Clearly in bigger cities in Finland your average office worker who considers spectating sport as watching Champions League in a sports bar is not interrested or aware of rallying. But take F-Cup rally closer than 100 km from Helsinki and you cars parked on the roadside as if it's WRC. Finns appreaciate sportsmen only if they are champions. It's been a long while since Grönholm's second title. All the runner-up seasons for Grönholm, Hirvonen and Latvala only means that the Finn had lost.

Since early 2000s - and not to mention earlier decades - all over the Western world people's spare time and hobbies have changed drastically. This all reflects to sports, all sports. Volunteers, permissions, money, all which are needed for this sports come harder to find all the time. For a nation of 5,5 million people we have done quite well in rallying, in my opinion. Some of you appreciate, some of you loathe it. But for sure Finns will keep their feet firmly put inside this sport. Mäkinen's Toyota project is an untravelled path. For two reasons I hope it'll succeed, one a general motive, another more personal: Firstly it would bring more cars, more excitement, more attention to rallying at its highest levels. I'm willing to stay 4-6 minutes longer at special stages to see Yaris WRCs pass. Secondly, I want to be proud as a Finn when it succees. This need however doesn't rise from myself, but all the naysayers have taking it up on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

How much an average French person knows about rallying? Or Brit? Or German? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying such as competing on closed roads from A to B. Rallying is just F1 with somewhat different cars to them, had they noticed this sport at all.

I've heard that if you go around from door to door in Zlin, most likely every other family is somewhat connected to rallying or have some other relation to the sport. Do that in Jämsä (Central Finland), and you have similar response. Clearly in bigger cities in Finland your average office worker who considers spectating sport as watching Champions League in a sports bar is not interrested or aware of rallying. But take F-Cup rally closer than 100 km from Helsinki and you cars parked on the roadside as if it's WRC. Finns appreaciate sportsmen only if they are champions. It's been a long while since Grönholm's second title. All the runner-up seasons for Grönholm, Hirvonen and Latvala only means that the Finn had lost.

Since early 2000s - and not to mention earlier decades - all over the Western world people's spare time and hobbies have changed drastically. This all reflects to sports, all sports. Volunteers, permissions, money, all which are needed for this sports come harder to find all the time. For a nation of 5,5 million people we have done quite well in rallying, in my opinion. Some of you appreciate, some of you loathe it. But for sure Finns will keep their feet firmly put inside this sport. Mäkinen's Toyota project is an untravelled path. For two reasons I hope it'll succeed, one a general motive, another more personal: Firstly it would bring more cars, more excitement, more attention to rallying at its highest levels. I'm willing to stay 4-6 minutes longer at special stages to see Yaris WRCs pass. Secondly, I want to be proud as a Finn when it succees. This need however doesn't rise from myself, but all the naysayers have taking it up on the surface.

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+1

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

How much an average French person knows about rallying? Or Brit? Or German? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying such as competing on closed roads from A to B. Rallying is just F1 with somewhat different cars to them, had they noticed this sport at all.

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Yep, but rally is not the national sport of France, GB or Germany, as many times said about Finland.

For sure I don't loathe the achievements of the Finnish proper rally legends or the small nation. There are lots of good and fine things in the Finnish rally scene. I just want to be objective. Hanging on the golden memories is like a handbrake for the development of the rallying in Finland.

Nokia is a good example about hanging on the past. They got the tablet and the smart phones on their designer's table years before anyone else. But their smart and experienced leaders said these are not the future. Well, what happened then?

How on earth all this is connected to the Toyota's return to the WRC? There are no the philosopher's stone or a silver bullet in Finland about rallying. The success of Toyota depends on how well Tommi and other executives understand the requirements of the today's rally.

And that the conditions for every team/country, isnt it? No silver bullit for anyone. Only hard work. Which finns are famous doing!

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

How much an average French person knows about rallying? I doubt they could even explain the most basic idea behind the rallying(...)
For a nation of 5,5 million people we have done quite well in rallying, in my opinion. Some of you appreciate, some of you loathe it.

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I’m not French but I got family living there for a long time and I always try to get some rally action while visiting them.

The last one, a couple of years ago, was Touquet Rallye in the north, counting for French champ. I was completely overwhelmed by the quantity and quality of cars and drivers, from top WRC to the oldest Gr.F cars. I just wasn’t impressed by the fans enthusiasm and proper knowledge, because from long time I know French rally fans are among the most passionate ones. Besides, rallying is a French invention, the most iconic world rally is still running on their country routes, they’ve always got national manufacturers involved in rally and at every new generation some talented French rally drivers get to became local (and world) legends. This is why common Frenchy actually knows what rally is. (I suspect common Brits also have a pretty good idea of it!).

Above all, it’s a bit weird to see how this topic has turned into a “with or against Fin rallying” and that there was even a Fin “counterattack” against others passionate rally countries. Everyone is entitled to her/his opinion, but sometimes opinions are exaggerated and lack reasonable arguments to stand for.

Finding Finland the capital of world rallying just because it may be the country with most rally fans per capita (a subjective and hard to verify ratio) it’s clearly overrated and if people find important to identify which country should get that nomination it’d be simpler to see what nation has the larger number of local ASN registered rally drivers or the larger number of rallies run each year.

But there’re others significant issues to look for: the location of the international motorsport/rally authority headquarters; the number and nationality of board elements and key figures in FIA/WRC decision making process; the number and nationality of manufacturers actively involved in rallying.

With a proper and factual view of all those items, we easily get the conclusion that Finland’s claim of “world rally capital” it’s incorrect, but that should never affect Finland heritage status as an iconic rally nation, alongside France, Great Britain and Italy (that sadly has been in a sort of rally hibernation).

One final remark on Makinen/Toyota partnership: since day one I’ve been a clear supporter of it, refusing the negative over criticism that foolishly has become predominant. My support doesn’t come from Makinen nationality or his choice to base the team in Finland; it comes from believing in his ability to turn TMR into a sort of MSport and make his company a powerful rally cluster capable of helping rally global growth.