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It's rather boring dealing with facts. Please edit your post to support some type of conspiracy theory. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
So far most of this thread is based on bias being shown for or against one team, yet ignoring the above stated fact.
Damn , you're right .Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
OK , I'll go with it being Dave Richards behind all this .
Whatever little respect I had left for RD, is all gone now :down: Suppose they win the WDC this way: what would their sponsors think? Can they put LH in the #1 car in an ad next year?Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
And as Hawkmoon said, why aren't the other teams appealling?
Ron wants another trophy for his collection and his little plan of hiring a 2 time WDC and a wonderchild rookie didn't work, so he'll try the courts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Seriously! The guy has problems! He makes me wish Paul Stoddart was back! ;)
Out of curiosity, I wonder how the other teams' fuel temperatures measured? Were they all on the low side, but just not lower than 10C? It would be interesting to find out more details. (Interesting, but not important, that is...)
If the appeal results in consistent method to check fuel temps for next season without any possibility of different interpretations, then I see it as a good thing.
Totally agree, but that's only the start, as posted elsewere, a new set of penalties needs to be drawn up and/or permament stewards at each race. Instead of the current system of deciding on a whim what the penalty might be.Quote:
Originally Posted by janneppi
The response to that is if there has been a breach of the regulations then why should it be ignored?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Of course it would be an unsatisfactory end to the season if the championship were decided on this appeal, and no-one wants to see Kimi lose the title or Hamilton win it in this way, but it's not McLaren's fault that Williams & BMW appear to have gained an advantage by breaking a rule. Whether they had done so at the first or last race of the season should make no difference.
Because their team or driver breached the regulations 2x the same week end, yet only one of the issues was addressed and it didn't result in a penalty against the said driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
What do you think, why did the stewards say that they don't accept any complaint against lewis qualifying blocking against Kimi?!
They could ask for a clarification of the rules instead of an appeal! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by janneppi
There's a subtle difference there! :p :
It was investigated. For many hours after the event. After the stewards looked at it they decided that there wasn't enough reason to punish the teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
McLaren are making out like BMW and Williams were found guilty and let off (a la the first Stepney-gate ruling). They were never found guilty, only investigated.
Again, I am moved to repeat that the penalties to be meted out should be consistant. In this case, any penalty should only affect the teams if/which are fuound guilty of the infraction and not other teams. A fair penalty would be (if the infraction is found to be true) to penalise the team(s) with grid positions in their next race as well as a fine.
In this case, it does appear that the stewards are not confident that their measurements have indicated a sustainable infraction as there appears to be some confusion to the temperatures taken and the benchmarks to compare them against.
A good lawyer would shoot this case down in flames.
That's what Max will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
And than J.Stewart will come out and say it's Max's personal vendetta against Ron! :p :
They didn't "accept any complaint" simply because there wasn't one! No complaint or protest was made.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Are you saying that because in your opinion Hamilton breached a regulation, and McLaren used two sets of wets and were penalised, a possible breach of the regulations by Williams and BMW should be ignored? How are those three issues related and why should one be dependent on the outcome of another?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
The FIA do not (or should not!!) look at things, as you appear to be doing, in terms of penalising a particular team at every opportunity.
This raises an interesting point. While we're all in favour of consistent penalties (at least, I think we are — some would surely object to the consistency applying to 'their team', which is of course never in the wrong), it is in reality impossible to compare one incident with another in terms of meting out punishments, because no-one could ever come up with a scale of equivalency for different misdemeanours. Who could come up with a means of grading, for instance, using more than the permitted number of sets of one type of tyre against overtaking on the formation lap? Which is more serious? How would you deal with the passage of information from one team to another via employees? This is almost impossible to police, and happens in all sorts of different ways. How would you set a concrete system of punishments? And we shouldn't even get started on racing incidents.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
It would be impossible to satisfy everyone in any case, because some 'fans' will always think that the team they most dislike, whichever team that may be, does everything out of a desire to cheat when in reality they don't know what the motivation was.
Well, maybe FIA should penalise BMW and Williams for breaching a regulation. However, taking points from the drivers is another thing. According to the FIA line the drivers cannot be penalised (Lewis and FA kept their points remember), Lewis wasnt fined for using 2 sets of wets etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Penalise the teams, let the drivers race.
:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Of course, we know that the Supreme Overlord of the Central Committee of Ferrari High Command would make the ideal permanent steward for F1, if and when he steps down.
Maybe you could explain how you lodge a complaint if the authorities do not want to accept it?! :sQuote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
I'm not sure that Hamilton fans agree with you on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzeidzei
Why would only 'Hamilton fans' disagree with such a point?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
What? :crazy:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
In the case you were talking about either 1) Ferrari could have protested or 2) the stewards could have looked at the incident. Either method will do, or 2 could follow 1. Neither happened.
One question? How did they know that the fuel temperature was not right? do they regulary take temperatures of fuel in every car. Do they do it at the beginning or at the end, or in middle stints? or do they have real time data of it? I honestly don't know as I never had a clue that fuel temperatures were regulated.
Cheers
David
I would assume from the fuel rig before the cars are refuelled?Quote:
Originally Posted by OTA
I think the best that could come from this is that the rule is abolished. If the teams can all cool the fuel down to whatever temperature they want then the fuel will probably all end up at the same temperature anyway.....
Is this done every time they refuel? Who came forward with the story, marshalls or Mac?
Cheers
David
Well if you're found to have an underweight car or infringing upon the rules in a technical manner it's usually the stewards who discuss it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OTA
Haug claims that they are appealing not to win the title but to obtain a clarification of the rules and "in the best interest of all teams". Why do they need to lie like that? :mad:
That's the funniest thing since a history book told me the English had the two Boer wars to protect miners rights rather than being the gold and diamond grab that it was :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
Because, as Ron constantly reminds us, McLaren has "integrity!" ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
Seriously, they should clarify the rule and look at how other teams compared that day (were they also low, but within 10C?, etc.) Perhaps there should be a way to regulate the temp of the fuels rigs and ALL fuel will be within a certain set specification. Then we won't have to go through this again!
As far as a penalty for BMW or Williams, I think a fine would be adequate. Taking away constructors' points would be drastic, and taking away drivers' points would be a joke!
If any team has integrity on pitlane, it is Williams! (And this is from a Ferrari fan!) I can't believe Ron is suggesting his "good friend" Frank's team would cheat or at least be incapable of regulating fuel temps!
Agreed. Though I keep thinking they weren't actually found guilty of anything. They ended up saying there was not solid evidence, and there was contradictory evidence so with that, we will not give a penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
Team "Integrity" is saying, they were found guilty but not punished. From what I've read, therre was insufficient evidence, end of story. I don't see why FIA doesn not just say, "there is nothing to punish" end of story.
I expect that they will do exactly that. Of course, we'll have a bunch of posts about how that's not fair...Quote:
Originally Posted by GP-M3
What have BMW and Williams had to say on the matter? All I've read is why McLaren feel that it's "too important" for them to not appeal. BMW and Williams have effectively been accused of or caught, depending on your point of view, cheating yet seem to be rather silent on the issue.
Haven't heard a thing. I guess they're not expecting too much to come from this. Perhaps Frank is trying to talk some sense into his "friend" Ron?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Where's the lie?Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
I come back to the point that if this had happened in the middle of the season it would be seen as perfectly normal - a question over the legality of cars, FIA say they were outside the regulations, stewards say issue is unclear, team that has lost out if cars were illegal appeal the decision.
If we weren't talking about McLaren and the final race of the year then most would see the appeal as being fully justified.
McLaren aren't asking for anything but for the FIA to examine the stewards decision. Unlike some there they're not assuming that Hamilton will be awarded points as a result of the appeal.
One could also ask would McLaren appeal if it was middle of the season?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Yes, the nature of Haug's comments suggest that they would have appealed then as well because the issue is not the championship, but a possible breach of the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
But the championship is very much the issue. If Hamilton had won the race and the title, McLaren wouldn't be giving two ****s about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Perhaps, but any team who may have potentially lost out due to another team(s) breaking a rule is fully entitled to appeal a decision of the FIA stewards. That applies at any point during the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malllen
Why McLaren are being criticised for doing what any team would do in their circumstances is bemusing :crazy: But then it is McLaren and Ron Dennis we're talking about :dozey:
Because it's in contrast with their earlier stance?!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
I say it's sufficient.
What earlier stance :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I agree with all of that as far as the bare facts are concerned, but I still feel that McLaren's actions at this point in time are extremely ill-judged. They smack of sour grapes, and I really think they would be well advised to let it lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
That would probably be best. In fact apart from Kimi's title, and Hamilton's rookie season I'd be happy to put the whole to the 2007 season to bed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell