What Happens Next?

ChiamWiz you are a person who is delious and cant see the truth all true fans can see that you are not one and we all see you only want FTG and the IRK to win what they can neverr win because the grandson is not a busines man like those who keep our sport alive against the dreams of all who want us dead. We speak with our business men and they are smarter and they believe since we have survived since 1909 ,,, We know the truth of what they seek and it is not the same as FTG, BE and the Little France,,, so why do you attack us on a place that is here for true fans to share all the positive our series is? Sanguin written we have fans when other series dont and the racing is good,,, our plan dosnt depends on another series being killed,,, The facts are there and you dont see,,, ChampCar throws a party and race breaks out,,, the IRK throws a race and a girl fight breaks out,,, whats so hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by jjjanos

I think the women wearing the ChampCar spandex suits are damn fine looking. In fact, I am positive of it.

In particular, I would like to ask the women holding the Neel Jani marker in this photo http://www.champcarworldseries.com/C...0831P_0105.jpg a question regarding her family tree.

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Do me a favor: find out if she's got a sister... preferably a twin. :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by jjjanos

Excellent. Everybody, let's agree to meet back here in 37 days. I'll bring some nacho chips, Indycool can I put you down for salsa? Anyone have a good recipie for deviled eggs? Who can bring the pretzels?

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Put me down for the deviled eggs. I'll also bring my famous wild boar sausage biscuits. But how will we recognize each other? I know... I'll be wearing my blue Nacional Senna cap. Maybe you fellows could wear your TrackForum t-shirts? :D



These days, American Open Wheel Racing forums are almost as entertaining as an episode of Meerkat Manor (except for the fact that Meerkat Manor receives higher acclaim than either of these sad racing series). I'm just trying to figure out which side of the split is the Whiskers and which is the Commandos.

I have my Inaugural San Jose Grand Prix T-Shirt, but since it's going to be a collectors item I'm not sure if I want to expose it to wear and tear :)

rh

With all that has happened and will soon happen I believe ChampCar has been caught in a perfect storm that could be the perfect opportunity to put this sport back on path to a solid future. Despite the negative observations that I have posted here I do still love the best things about CART/ChampCar and want them to survive but like many, I no longer believe in ChampCar or the men who own it. Do you blame me?

My hope is that something good finally comes of all this after the final buzzer sounds in the Ego Bowl and we all get to move on and look forward to being enthusiastic again about seeing the best in American wheel racing together again in a truly great series that reflects the hard lessons of the past 13 1/2 years since Tony George announced the IRL. Now that the leaders of our series gotten the chance to take their turns at the wheel trying to prove they are the real suicide kings I just hope they have had their fill of scaring the feces out of all of us who are but mere passengers on their Three Hour Cruise without the Skipper, Gilligan or the Professor. At least we had a couple of Thurston Howell III types to make it fun for a little while. The truth is all of us are marooned and it is getting old.

Sure, "we" and the OWRS owners have some great races, great teams, great drivers, an awesome feeder series and some excellent people working in HQ and we have Cosworth. It is clear that these aren't enough because we are now going backwards again. It really is a "three strikes" and you’re out mentality in business and we are there now in the minds of most.

Okay, "we" can go on claiming the heritage of the American National Championship but that is getting much harder to do as each year passes. The truth is that one race has defined the American National Championship since 1909 and that one race is still at the heart of the problem and the opportunity.

We all have choices to make in life. For many of us who work in the business, the choice is now about being part of the problem or part of the solution.

I choose the later and that involves seeing things as they are, not as I wish the to be. That is actually the only way we can all do the things that need to be done to create what we want in life. So, I am going to give posting to this topic a rest and work on that rather than complaining about it. My frustration has been showing in my posts and to those I may have offended personally, I apologize. If I disagree with you it is only about perception of what is fact and with your ideas, not your right to think what you think. I do appreciate the fact everyone cares about something I care about passionately and I am sure most of us here only want the best for the sport.

Good luck everyone, -CW

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

Maybe you fellows could wear your TrackForum t-shirts? :D

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I will be wearing my Tag's Victory Suit

ChaimWitz,

You are not offending anyone and there is no need to apologise. However, you have to realise that there is a lot of sensitivity on the forum about the state of CCWS. Particularly, if you tend to present the negative aspects, of which there are many, over the positive ones.

Most, if not all of us, realise that the current situation is dire and likely on a knife edge in terms of survival, but there are some who just don't want to read it right now.

I am comfortable discussing both the positive and negative. I can probably do this because I am not allowing myself to get emotionally involved and getting my hopes up. I hope the series survives and I will be happy if it does, but if it goes away or merges with the IRL, I will not be happy, but accept it.

One thing you have to realise, no matter what you think of the CCWS leaders, is that they took a risk and spent their own money to ensure the series survival.

I didn't have the finances, the bravery nor the sheer audacity to do as they did in 2004. So, for giving it a try, I salute and applaud them.

So, does that mean we should just be cheerleaders? No, not at all, however whilst we criticise, we can also praise as well.

At least they tried! ......and are still trying, I should add.

I think no one should apolgize for their tastes, it is a free country, or countries in this case. I have been a loyal Champ Car supporter and still am, but I reserve the right to demand a 100 % on the part of the Ownership to make this thing fly, and I think I have a right as a fan to criticize when I don't like the direction of the series. Right now, the professionalism of management has NOT been evident, and it has made it really tough. That said, I have been positive when they give me something to be happy about, and I all I ask of my fellow race fans is to demand more. Don't be happy with what it is....until Champ Car either succeeds or dies, I will be a fan, but how enthusiastic Iam will waver if I don't like what I see. It is hard not to like Kevin Kalkoven from what I have seen, but his partners at times have more than annoyed me, and in the end, the proof is in the results. You have a 17 car series that cancelled two races this year with hardly any TV audience with great live gates. It is a mixed bag of results, and after 4 years, I expected more....

Just a note to anyone concerned about the recent criticism of Champ Car in these forums: it's not dislike or even hate that drives these comments, it's a genuine and passionate love for the sport, and that will always be a positive. It's also a means to get The Amigos to reconsider their strategy that clearly is lacking in some areas. If we all didn't love the sport in general and Champ Car in particular as much as we do, we'd have given up on it a long time ago. We can't just blind ourselves to the truth when it happens just because someone's feeling gets hurt.

Truth is, Champ Car has made some good things happen this year, like racing at Mt. Tremblant. I just want to see more good things like this happen. If we can get more good things to happen, nobody will have to worry about the enthusiasm in this forum leaping to new heights.

Chapparral, some people want everyone to wave the poms and never question the series direction. Of course, when it goes into bankruptcy or out of business, they will all be in denial and looking for the black helicoptors and pseudo government agencies hired by Bernie Ecclestone who did the deed; but the reality is what we are questioning are questions any sane, rational business type will be asking. We are questioning the marketing and management of the series we love, and THAT, is healthy because they do know what is being said on here, and they have to know if joe fan can ask these questions, then they are in trouble and they need to take steps.

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Originally Posted by Chaparral66

Just a note to anyone concerned about the recent criticism of Champ Car in these forums: it's not dislike or even hate that drives these comments, it's a genuine and passionate love for the sport, and that will always be a positive. It's also a means to get The Amigos to reconsider their strategy that clearly is lacking in some areas. If we all didn't love the sport in general and Champ Car in particular as much as we do, we'd have given up on it a long time ago. We can't just blind ourselves to the truth when it happens just because someone's feeling gets hurt.

Truth is, Champ Car has made some good things happen this year, like racing at Mt. Tremblant. I just want to see more good things like this happen. If we can get more good things to happen, nobody will have to worry about the enthusiasm in this forum leaping to new heights.

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Chaparral, I owe you a cold one. :beer:

The trolls most of us can pick out pretty quick, but I think its clear most of us are getting vocal because we care, and want the series to succeed. I don't wish they'd die by any means, but I think they need to nail down who they are and go for whatever that is.

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I think no one should apolgize for their tastes, it is a free country, or countries in this case. I have been a loyal Champ Car supporter and still am, but I reserve the right to demand a 100 % on the part of the Ownership to make this thing fly, and I think I have a right as a fan to criticize when I don't like the direction of the series. Right now, the professionalism of management has NOT been evident, and it has made it really tough.

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Mark,

I agree that anyone is free to state their opinion on the current state of Champ Car and the job that it's leaders are doing. I also agree that based on current news, the series is not doing that well and the leaders do not appear to be managing the situation very well. In fact, it is fair to say they are doing a poor job.

However, they decided to save the series in 2004, and all I was trying to say is that they deserved to be commended for taking the risk and spending a lot of money to do so. They tried and as far as I know are still trying. Granted, things aren't going too well and the future looks bleak, unless they get their collective acts together and run the series in a professional manner.

I also like you, reserve the right to criticize. As a fan, I too expect them to perform. I was very happy when they took over in 2004 and a seemingly brighter future was in front of us. Well, it hasn't worked out that way and in my opinion the series will be gone soon. My prediction is that it will either collapse in 2008 or 2009.

I don't like it, but I really can't see any other outcome based on the actions, or lack of action from the leadership, and the bad news that seems to be a regular occurrence these days.

I hope I am wrong and would be happy to be reminded of this in the future, if it means we have a strong, successful and prosperous Champ Car in years to come.

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Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

Mark,

I agree that anyone is free to state their opinion on the current state of Champ Car and the job that it's leaders are doing. I also agree that based on current news, the series is not doing that well and the leaders do not appear to be managing the situation very well. In fact, it is fair to say they are doing a poor job.

However, they decided to save the series in 2004, and all I was trying to say is that they deserved to be commended for taking the risk and spending a lot of money to do so. They tried and as far as I know are still trying. Granted, things aren't going too well and the future looks bleak, unless they get their collective acts together and run the series in a professional manner.

I also like you, reserve the right to criticize. As a fan, I too expect them to perform. I was very happy when they took over in 2004 and a seemingly brighter future was in front of us. Well, it hasn't worked out that way and in my opinion the series will be gone soon. My prediction is that it will either collapse in 2008 or 2009.

I don't like it, but I really can't see any other outcome based on the actions, or lack of action from the leadership, and the bad news that seems to be a regular occurrence these days.

I hope I am wrong and would be happy to be reminded of this in the future, if it means we have a strong, successful and prosperous Champ Car in years to come.

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All of us want Champ Car to succeed, except maybe a few trolls. That said, I wont put my brain in neutral while Iam funnelled the Kool Aid.

I have never once said the Amigo's were not brave with their cash in the first few years. I was with the program for the most part, but it has become clear that they are moving into a new phase of moving offshore and only going to events that pay them the money up front, and not really doing the due diligence on the promotors. Phoenix was the proof I needed in my mind to say that Champ Car was not paying attention to the details. I has done them no good to spend the money for all the events and Cosworth, to then not spend the extra few bucks for the better TV contracts and promote the series properly.

As far as Iam concerned, this year has undone all the good work they did, but hey, it is their money. Just if I keep finding other things to watch because I cant get their races on TV when they are supposed to be on, at some point, I will not look any more. It is almost to that point now. I would prefer they were on tape delay a week late then what I have to do to see them on TV now. In Australia, they had NO outlet until half way through the season. I don't think too many Americans are happy with the ESPN backhand they get by being on Classic. The broadcast when I have seen it is boring and almost cutrate. It does them no good to continue this way.

It does them no good to go to Europe when they have done so little to consolidate and grow their native market. So call me names or argue with me or not, but I stand by what I said earlier. If this series dies in the next two years, it will be no one's fault but the Amigos......it isn't like I haven't tried to be a fan, but they are leaving me behind.....

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Originally Posted by Papyrus

ChiamWiz you are a person who is delious and cant see the truth all true fans can see that you are not one and we all see you only want FTG and the IRK to win what they can neverr win because the grandson is not a busines man like those who keep our sport alive against the dreams of all who want us dead. We speak with our business men and they are smarter and they believe since we have survived since 1909 ,,, We know the truth of what they seek and it is not the same as FTG, BE and the Little France,,, so why do you attack us on a place that is here for true fans to share all the positive our series is? Sanguin written we have fans when other series dont and the racing is good,,, our plan dosnt depends on another series being killed,,, The facts are there and you dont see,,, ChampCar throws a party and race breaks out,,, the IRK throws a race and a girl fight breaks out,,, whats so hard to understand?

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Somebody has got this parody spot on :D

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Originally Posted by pickaxe

Somebody has got this parody spot on :D

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Scary huh :)

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It does them no good to go to Europe when they have done so little to consolidate and grow their native market. So call me names or argue with me or not, but I stand by what I said earlier. If this series dies in the next two years, it will be no one's fault but the Amigos......it isn't like I haven't tried to be a fan, but they are leaving me behind.....

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Mark,

Fair enough, and please note that I have never called you names and I hope no else has done so either.

I enjoy the discussion and particularly the premise of this thread. Like you I agree that it is hard to stay a committed fan when the ship seems to be rudderless.

By the way, can you please explain what "drinking the KoolAid" means? I realise that it is something to do with being gullible, but why KoolAid?

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Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

Mark,

Fair enough, and please note that I have never called you names and I hope no else has done so either.

I enjoy the discussion and particularly the premise of this thread. Like you I agree that it is hard to stay a committed fan when the ship seems to be rudderless.

By the way, can you please explain what "drinking the KoolAid" means? I realise that it is something to do with being gullible, but why KoolAid?

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It's a reference to the Jonestown mass suicide in Nov. of 1978, where the followers of Jim Jones drank cyanide laced Kool-aid or as wikipedia refers to it "flavor aid"

Gary

Gary,

Thank you. I genuinely did not know that.

Cheeze Whiz,,, I know, I've seen,,, it's clear, to the ones who read and understand,,, the fight will be fought through victory and upon wrath of the liked track of speed,,, my sources say "outlook not clear" and thus eight ball convertible,,, non-believers need not apply 2008 to surprise all,,,, good sausage,,, great brattwurst,,, the sky is not falling,,,,,,all is clear with patience and paperclips,,,,

OK, now that we've all weighed in on this, what can we as fans do to fix this mess? I asked this same question over in the IRL forum.

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Originally Posted by Chaparral66

OK, now that we've all weighed in on this, what can we as fans do to fix this mess? I asked this same question over in the IRL forum.

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Nothing. The war isn't being fought for our benefit. It is being fought for theirs.

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Originally Posted by jjjanos

Nothing. The war isn't being fought for our benefit. It is being fought for theirs.

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While I'm not THAT hopeless, the last things you said are spot on target.

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Originally Posted by Ruben Barrios

Cheeze Whiz,,, I know, I've seen,,, it's clear, to the ones who read and understand,,, the fight will be fought through victory and upon wrath of the liked track of speed,,, my sources say "outlook not clear" and thus eight ball convertible,,, non-believers need not apply 2008 to surprise all,,,, good sausage,,, great brattwurst,,, the sky is not falling,,,,,,all is clear with patience and paperclips,,,,

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Paper, go back to that other playground, will ya' please :)

In keeping with the Thread Title.....when will we see the 2008 schedule?

This will be very interesting, and depending on how many dates are confirmed, to be confirmed or tentative, it will certainly shed some light on what happens next!

I am back, thanks for the kind posts regarding my last one. It now hear that the problems in Mexico City are as bad as feared. A very good source tells me that a number of Mexico City event staff were laid off today and that more bad news may be coming next week. Will somebody at ChampCar please say it ain't so? I am begining to think that Surfers may be the last ChampCar race in history. If true, this is a tragic end.

Actually ,the Mexico City race makes money.

Applying your standards... link please.

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Federico Alaman, director of sports event of OCESA/CIE confirm to this diary that they don't have any $$$$ problems or $$$$$ lose in the years that the series has been visiting the Hermanos Rodriguez racetrack,...

"We haven't lose ($$$) at all and that's why we keep doing it, but when they do, it is not viable, we are here to generate money, we live from sell tickets.

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taken from a Mexican newspaper article translated from a Hispanic poster from CCF.

That's not a link. It's a quote and from an extremist site as well.

Linke = url.

"I found in today's edition of Mexico City sports newspaper "Record" an interview with Federico Alaman, who is the responsable at OCESA/CIE for the sports events promoting and organization activities ...By Mario Palafox"

Here's where you can find it.

I'm still waiting for a link about Vegas too.

So jjjanos, you basically say that Net-Ranger, the Mexican Champ Car fan who posted this at CCF, and who is also a poster at these forums is a liar, and made up the article and the quotes from Alamán? I ask this because you seem to be questioning the validity of the information posted by sanguin.

[quote="quetch"]So jjjanos, you basically say that Net-Ranger, the Mexican Champ Car fan who posted this at CCF, and who is also a poster at these forums is a liar, and made up the article and the quotes from Alam&#225]

I don't know who posted it at the ChampCarFascists. I don't even know if it was posted at ChampCarFascists. All I know is that someone here said it was posted at ChampCarFascists. I'm more than willing to extend the benefit of inductive/deductive reasoning to people. I'm just not willing to extend it to those who won't extend the same benefit.

What happens next. We can all go to the bar and have drinks. I heard Raikkonen's a frequenter at this new club in London.

Okay Starter, whatever. Feel free to delete that post if you find it offensive, and please delete my profile as well. I had a nice three years posting at Motorsport Forums, but this place has become just as bad as CCF, just with the opposite biases. Like fascists and communists, to quote jjanos. Unfortunately, currently there are no English language fan forums to discuss Champ Car racing, if we use that term in its original meaning. Fortunately, there is a small group of Champ Car fans in my native Hungary with nice meetings, going to races and discussing this fantastic sport in a sensible manner, pulling for its success but without drinking the koolaid of the owners and the management. Bottom line, what happens next is the race at Sufers Paradise and I will have a good time watching and and discussing it with other Champ Car fans. I wish the same to all the other people, but I think they will just continue bitching and moaning about things they can't change, and if they don't agree with each other, demand a link, of course.

Sanguin, if Mexico counts on ticket sales to make money, how do they intend to make money this year? It is 7 weeks from the race. There are no ticket outlets, no tickets available ANYWHERE.

Does that mean you are saying there will be no Mexico race this year?

tbyars, don't argue with an "expert". They are always right.

Here is MY OPINION. There are no links, so Mr. Expert don't even bother to ask. I have my opinion, and you have yours. And I am tired on hearing your pointless drivel.

After 350+ posts we have established that no one knows what’s next. We are all speculating. Why? Because CC management doesn’t seem to know what is next.

I hate conspiracy theories since most fly in the fact of known fact, but there is something odd concerning the Mexico race. First, there is almost zero information on the race, ticket, promotion, etc. Yet, good drivers are being dumped for Mexican drivers who "might" be bringing money, so that only makes any sense if the race will happen. My take is that the race was in serious trouble and probably wouldn't happen in a rational world. But after the other cancellations, the amigos now feel it has to happen, just to save face and keep Gerry happy. Saving face is a big deal for people with big egos, and they have plenty of that. If that is the case, making money isn't a concern. They are just doing anything possible to avoid cancellation. If that includes some last minute driver changes, so be it. The Mexican drivers are there to try to get any meager Mexican support and prevent being thrown out of the country.

My conspiracy theory is that CC management is behind Dalziel getting replaced. PCM is on the lease program and CC could easily make life difficult if they didn’t cooperate.

So what happens next (after Surfers) will be a race in Mexico. With no promotion it will be a flop, and a just big club race for the CC owners club. So even if it has no spectators, they can claim they didn't cancel and they didn’t throw the promoter – Forsythe – under the bus.

beachbum... I agree 100% with what you have written. It is a disappointing situation to watch this once vibrant race slip to this point. I am still hearing that it is uncertain that the race will actually take place. Now Robin Miller nailed us again when commenting about the cynical last minute driver swaps:

"Two More Black Eyes For ChampCar"

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40435/

Don't get me wrong, I think David Martinez is a potential future star and Mario has had some great days in a Champ Car but this situation is so transparent. I really think this all revolves around the promoter contract and who gets left holding the bag if/when a race gets cancelled. Viva Las Vegas too.

There is nothing coming from ChampCar on any of this and I have to wonder why.

Why is CC held to a different standard than other series that substitute drivers? Nascar has many ,many "black eyes" ,since they dump their regular drivers for road course specialists at their tracks. Other series bring in nationals also to create local interest. All of a sudden this is a bad thing because CC is doing it? Please!

Robin must be really bored and missing the beachs of Surfers' to try to create drama with this crap. His agenda is clearly showing and its hard to take him serious anymore.

The problem here is one of the teams is that of a series owner who could likely step up and just add a thrid car for two races - it would be a great show of good faith to the other teams, drivers and fans.

The other team is letting go of their good driver - ok, so the second driver is the onwer's son - but it still does not look good....

For a series thathas been struggling with car count it makes little sense to replace two perfectly good drivers when SOMEONE should be able to just ADD them to the roster for two measley races...

What this situation seems to demonstrate is that NOBODY is willing to put themselves out to make this series succeeds. That is fine - that is thier choice and thier money - but why should I go out of my way to support these guys (OWRS)when it seems like they are hard pressed to support themselves...

Something is very wrong here.....

Looking at it with a cold head, my impression is that the owners are counting their losses and just trying to recoup as much as possible with as little investment as possible...

Maybe the 5 year plan was to fill the grid with new teams (using the magic Panoz as bait) and then sell the series for a profit... Plan went wrong and GF said "enough with this crap, I'll wait 'till you bozos put this series under and start again from scratch..."

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Nascar has many ,many "black eyes" ,since they dump their regular drivers for road course specialists at their tracks.

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Please explain that little gem of logic. How it replacing an oval track driver with no roadcourse skils with someone who does, in ANY FREAKIN' WAY equate to removing a driver and replacing him with one from the country where the race will be held.

I'm not at all happy to see Servia get the boot, Ryan I don't have strong feelings about either way. But for the life of me I can't see how this has ANYTHING to do with NASCAR teams substituing road course drivers.

Gary