[WRC] FORUM8 Rally Japan 2023

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WRCStan

This forum is insane. 20 pages of demister chat and I'm just spending my Friday afternoon refreshing the page to see if anything got added. Well done lads.

---

It's way better that 20 posts of:
"Sordo is off", "Taka is up on split 1"
The info you get browsing any resaults page...

No Super Rally for Sordo and Fourmaux.
Would be a bit of a pity for Sordo to end his career like this.
And not a good news for Fourmaux considering the situation; well, even if Sordo also doing the mistake gives him a bit of comparison, clearly a bad stuff to end as soon as the first real stage.

Formaux is just a driving disaster. He got a new chance after binning it regulalry, and now he crashes on a first proper stage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

Listen to br21, he knows.

Please follow this small example.

It's cold outside and it's raining.

You have a road car with internalvolume 2 m3. There is 22°C inside. You come inside completely wet and the water starts to evaporate. The maximum amount of water the 2 m3 of air at 22°C can take is 38 gramms. The rest stays in the form of liquid in the clothes or on the floor.

Now you have a second car with the same internal volume but the inner temperature is 50°C. Again you bring some water inside on your clothes and shoes. The maximum amount of water which can evaporate in 2 m3 of air is now 164 gramms. So your air in the car now contains 4,3x more water.

Where the air hits the cold glass it cools itself and the water condenses because the colder the air is, the lesser amount of water it can take. If you have the same heated windsreen which is capable to heat the screen to let's say 30°C average you have no misting in the road car but you still have big misting problem in the other one (the air at 30°C can take only 37% of water compared to the air at 50°C) and due to the fact that the inner humidity is already 100% the blowers don't work.

So the resume is that you have to either heat the windscreen to higher temperature than what the ambient temperature inside the car is. Or you need to bring less water inside (may not be possible), or you need to lower the humidity (not possible without A/C). Or you need to somehow cool down the temperature inside the car. If you have very high temperature drop between the inside and the outside, heating the screen enough might not be possible, so you need to let as much air from the outside to get in because the air from the outside even if it's wet, will still help because it's much colder but the amount of air you can let in is very limited by the vents. You can't drive on stage with opened windows because it's forbidden. After all you might end in a situation where nothing helps.

---

Yes, it all makes sense.

Everything but why the teams do not take it in consideration.
Just read an interview with Loeb, where he said, that having a mist problems in a 1 million eur car is nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WRCStan

This forum is insane. 20 pages of demister chat and I'm just spending my Friday afternoon refreshing the page to see if anything got added. Well done lads.

---

Stan, the humidity is the only topic of Rally Japan. Not much else to discuss.

P.S. I hope the first ever WRC 2 car will be on podium at Sunday.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tauri_J

Formaux is just a driving disaster. He got a new chance after binning it regulalry, and now he crashes on a first proper stage.

---

In his defence, both katsuta and sordo binned it on the same corner, so it most likely something he could not have avoided.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linni

AFAIK no one has, at least in WRC1. It`s just not a windscreen, it has to contain some relays in a chain which is extra weight. Still stupid decision not to have one. It`s not the first case during the last couple of years.

---

Every single Rally1 and Rally2 car has a heated screen.

A friend in need is a friend indeed.

https://i.ibb.co/JyJ2G5s/hyundai.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linni

Yes, it all makes sense.

Everything but why the teams do not take it in consideration.
Just read an interview with Loeb, where he said, that having a mist problems in a 1 million eur car is nonsense.

---

We woud need to do some pretty complex math but heating the windscreen to 50+ °C at cold weather and high speeds definitely requires a lot of power because the windscreen is actively cooled from the outside with very high efficiency. I can't compute that myself but it's definitely several kilowatts. That doesn't mean only that you need a source to deliver such power but you also need to have thick enough wires in the glass. My very rough estimation is around 5 kW in situations like here in Japan. That is 10x more than what standard road car heated screens are capable of. You also need 3-4x thicker (and much better visible) wires.

I'm also not sure whether there wouldn't be a risk of cracking the glass from temperature shocks combined with mechanical shocks and vibrations.

For sure if it had a simple solution no team would have problems.

ABITEBOUL CRITICAL OF NEUVILLE’S ‘RUSHED’ APPROACH
THIERRY NEUVILLE CRASHED OUT OF SECOND WHILE CHASING DOWN THE LEAD, WHICH HASN'T IMPRESSED HIS BOSS

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/abite...shed-approach/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dimviii

ABITEBOUL CRITICAL OF NEUVILLE’S ‘RUSHED’ APPROACH
THIERRY NEUVILLE CRASHED OUT OF SECOND WHILE CHASING DOWN THE LEAD, WHICH HASN'T IMPRESSED HIS BOSS

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/abite...shed-approach/

---

Partly agree with him, but in these conditions it is really easy to make a mistake

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by COD

I fail to see why it would not be? All current teams have a car + more manufacturers, privateer teams with a reasonable chance to impress and so many more positives. What is so good about these hybrid creations that would prevent rally2 becoming top class?

---

I have watched real WRC 5 times this year, 7 times last year and so on... and I WANT Rally1 as top class, because seeing them fly past is very big difference comparing with Rally2 cars...
Yes, now is not enough teams and cars, but that is anther story

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

We woud need to do some pretty complex math but heating the windscreen to 50+ °C at cold weather and high speeds definitely requires a lot of power because the windscreen is actively cooled from the outside with very high efficiency. I can't compute that myself but it's definitely several kilowatts. That doesn't mean only that you need a source to deliver such power but you also need to have thick enough wires in the glass. My very rough estimation is around 5 kW in situations like here in Japan. That is 10x more than what standard road car heated screens are capable of. You also need 3-4x thicker (and much better visible) wires.

I'm also not sure whether there wouldn't be a risk of cracking the glass from temperature shocks combined with mechanical shocks and vibrations.

For sure if it had a simple solution no team would have problems.

---

If you cannot heat the things up, you have to think, how to ventilate the moisture out. Sunroof will do, or full cabrio (smile). Or something between.
Anything, but I have to give credits to Ogier - how the hell the windscreen is misty in my 1 mil eur car?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dimviii

ABITEBOUL CRITICAL OF NEUVILLE’S ‘RUSHED’ APPROACH
THIERRY NEUVILLE CRASHED OUT OF SECOND WHILE CHASING DOWN THE LEAD, WHICH HASN'T IMPRESSED HIS BOSS

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/abite...shed-approach/

---

wow, thats the most critical i have seen him so far

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linni

If you cannot heat the things up, you have to think, how to ventilate the moisture out. Sunroof will do, or full cabrio (smile). Or something between.
Anything, but I have to give credits to Ogier - how the hell the windscreen is misty in my 1 mil eur car?

---

IMHO the only reliable solution is A/C unit. The problem is that it has about 20 kg and takes a lot of space.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

IMHO the only reliable solution is A/C unit. The problem is that it has about 20 kg and takes a lot of space.

---

There has to be another solution. Let`s see, what`s coming on in Monte. The moisture is there a problem as well.
I wonder if no team has taken any measures due to it.

It is all doable. If they could do it 20y ago, they can do it today.
About AC
1) thread from 2007:
https://www.motorsportforums.com/sho...ng-in-WRC-cars

2)Wrc wings post about 307 WRC:
https://www.wrcwings.tech/2023/03/06...wrc-rally-car/

3) LATVALA's statement from last year
https://dirtfish.com/rally/latvala-s...cockpit-issue/

Quote:

---

“This is my personal opinion – we could have air conditioning in the cars, but it needs to be the same for everybody,” Latvala told DirtFish.

“The same model, the same weight and everything,that could be one solution.

---

Easy and should be done for drivers'/codrivers' safety.

Same marketing. It would be the top of the sport then. Why would it make less sense marketing a car that looks the ones sold in showrooms than these tubeframed winged monsters that hardly resemble the roadcars?

Once the cars are hybrid kinda, why not the heat pump? Fits more to "green" technologies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linni

There has to be another solution. Let`s see, what`s coming on in Monte. The moisture is there a problem as well.
I wonder if no team has taken any measures due to it.

---

I think Ogier said that problem is the cars are tube framed with plastic panels, a lot of water getting in from cracs. He said these problems are not happening with real car based rally2 cars of previous WRC machines

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by COD

I think Ogier said that problem is the cars are tube framed with plastic panels, a lot of water getting in from cracs. He said these problems are not happening with real car based rally2 cars of previous WRC machines

---

I think thats quit accurate.

Perhaps they should install windscreen wipers on the inside too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by denkimi

Perhaps they should install windscreen wipers on the inside too

---

Or just to return to cars based on roadcar frames

The empty stadium is really embarassing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bomber21

The empty stadium is really embarassing.

---

Yesterday, there were quite a lot of people actually

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by COD

Or just to return to cars based on roadcar frames

---

That would be a really bad idea for the WRC future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by COD

Same marketing. It would be the top of the sport then. Why would it make less sense marketing a car that looks the ones sold in showrooms than these tubeframed winged monsters that hardly resemble the roadcars?

---

Because for the manufacturers it's much more expensive, time consuming and complicated to work with the road car bodyshell than with the space frame. Imagine that whatever change happens in the road car may affect the rally car and if you need to modify the bodyshell for the rally car you have to go trough super expensive and super time consuming process of changing the stock production.

For the manufacturers the optimal way is to keep the motorsport department completely separated from the production. With that you can do the same change with handful of people and only within the motorsport department budget. In the other case you may need hundreds of people, months of meetings and plannings and a lot of money from outside of the motorsport department budget for the very same change (in the end you probably end with not executing it and stay with sub-optimal solution).

Moreover the stock cars are less and less suitable for being converted into rally cars. By requiring a stock bodyshell you close the door for large part of the pool of potential competitors. That itself is a stupid thing to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

Because for the manufacturers it's much more expensive, time consuming and complicated to work with the road car bodyshell than with the space frame. Imagine that whatever change happens in the road car may affect the rally car and if you need to modify the bodyshell for the rally car you have to go trough super expensive and super time consuming process of changing the stock production.

For the manufacturers the optimal way is to keep the motorsport department completely separated from the production. With that you can do the same change with handful of people and only within the motorsport department budget. In the other case you may need hundreds of people, months of meetings and plannings and a lot of money from outside of the motorsport department budget for the very same change (in the end you probably end with not executing it and stay with sub-optimal solution).

Moreover the stock cars are less and less suitable for being converted into rally cars. By requiring a stock bodyshell you close the door for large part of the pool of potential competitors. That itself is a stupid thing to do.

---

For car enthusiast this is a hard pill to swallow, but the truth.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...24f9c011fd.jpg

Plenty of mistakes in the onboard of Neuville. A lot of understeer and wrong lines.

Anyway the stage has been so far so twisty that it's been completely unspectacular :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirek

Because for the manufacturers it's much more expensive, time consuming and complicated to work with the road car bodyshell than with the space frame. Imagine that whatever change happens in the road car may affect the rally car and if you need to modify the bodyshell for the rally car you have to go trough super expensive and super time consuming process of changing the stock production.

For the manufacturers the optimal way is to keep the motorsport department completely separated from the production. With that you can do the same change with handful of people and only within the motorsport department budget. In the other case you may need hundreds of people, months of meetings and plannings and a lot of money from outside of the motorsport department budget for the very same change (in the end you probably end with not executing it and stay with sub-optimal solution).

Moreover the stock cars are less and less suitable for being converted into rally cars. By requiring a stock bodyshell you close the door for large part of the pool of potential competitors. That itself is a stupid thing to do.

---

But its been that way for all of the WRC, apart from the crazy Group B period. Plus it's been fine for producing all the Rally2 / R5 cars..

Spaceframe chassis was brought in for scaling reasons so any new Manufacturer could use any model... but none have joined WRC anyway.

This stage is so so tricky. It is a shame, that we have not some kind of battle

What the hell is happening?

You're joking

More chaos already..

What?

Joke show

Let's cancel it, we have enough kilometres today hahaha

And Katsuta just flying?

Taka doesn't know and carries on !