I didn't see that full season in independent teams. That's what is missing from the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
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I didn't see that full season in independent teams. That's what is missing from the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
If after decades of dominance you still missing parts of the picture you have some issues...
Decades? wow. I thought it is only 1. I don't mind Loeb's dominance by driving, but some people have some point
what point ? that he did not stay in the sport until the age of 50 in order someone to beat him ? they do not have any point at all.. they are just bitter because he ridiculed their doggys.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Noooo, the point he was privileged in the team. No one can deny it.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Ogier isn't privileged in VW ? Makkinen was not privileged in Mitsubishi ? Gronholm wasn't privileged in Peugeot ? Isn't it normal for a team to privilege the golden boy of each team ?Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
What you ignore is that Loeb started as everyone else and gained this privilege !! he turned established divas like sainz and Mcrae to scared little dogs that just lost their owner and pushed both of them to retirement and clown shows in the US.
Hahaha like Ogier in the S2000 Skoda?Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Seven billion, I last checked that number over 10 years ago lol. I'm surprised that we haven't run out of air already with NOT on this board. ;)
It is normal sometimes perhaps, I haven't noticed for others, at least it was not systematic, in case of Loeb this was, enough to gain lot of anti fans I guess. He shouldn't complain he has some.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
state the facts please of this systematic favouritism...Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Funny to hear from another angle, world touring cars, that there are strong rumors about newly formed Loeb Racing Citroen Team, strongly supported by Citroen, contesting WTCC in 2015, with Robert Kubica as the driver. Kubica will do a selected WRC tarmac programm when WTCC schedule alowes. Let's see if it's true coming weeks.
Radik Shaymiev will do WRC2, starting from Sweden. He is going to use Fiesta R5, from MMM.
Please state the opposition Loeb faced for his last 5 titles, after Gronholm retired.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
It's not his fault that there was no competition...Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
But remember that Loeb, in his 2nd WRC-season was beating Sainz, Burns, Gronholm, McRae, Mäkinen etc? On tarmac he was beating many WRC-stars already on his first events with the Xsara WRC in 2001/2002. What he was doing back then, with so little experience, already proved that he was a different driver. He was extremely fast, and rarely made mistakes. He doesn't have the most likeable personality, but you can't go around the fact that he's the best rallydriver ever existed.
What did you want him to do about that ??Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
I'd agree with all the above except for the personality bitQuote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Same. He's pretty good for a Frenchman. The old Peugeot team boss (Privoit?) was a bit of an arrogant ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nornbugger
Can you just answer the question?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Loeb faced the same opposition as Ogier does now, so why is the question relevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
We aren't talking about Ogier. I agree that Loeb is one of the greats, I just don't think that he is the greatest; the fact remains that for 5 of his 9 titles, he faced practically no opposition, which is something some are unwilling to admit. Obviously, this was not Loeb's fault, but after 2007, the championship had effectively ceased to be a competition. I would have loved to see him try for a title in another car, or not to have "retired" just as VW were arriving on the scene. The WRC would have been better for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doon
This isn't trial so to state who, when, why and how many times, etc. This is public secret and many have seen it many times while he practically had no other opposition than his own team mates. I'm just trying to explain that to worship someone is more complex than simple "feelings" like "I hate him, just because he is the best". So he is, and even without this favouritism, still would have more titles than anyone else in WRC, how strong or weak is the opposition, still many can argue, but the fact is that his last titles were practically with just 1 team as concurrent. To be really that good for me means You have to be in every aspect and prove it over time, again, and again, not just take it as granted after some time, when it is more easy and You have lots of credits for what You've given. At the end appears You gain much more than You actually deserve, that's my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
I know it is pointless to answer and you will now start the same story of why he stayed at Citroen and he retired when VW came in WRC and blah blah blah... but lets see the number again:Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
Didn't Hirvonen take it to last rally to decide the title two times (2009 and 2011)? This to me seems there was some competition. Look again to the championship standings from 2004-2007, the differences are greater than you think, except 2007. Remember 2006 he was away for 4 rallies. Here are the average points differences from champion (adjusted to 25 points for win before 2010):
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2 0.18 5.63 8.75 0.16 0.63 3.17 0.21 8.08 0.62 4.38 8.77 3.77 3 1.61 6.09 8.75 7.34 2.66 9.50 6.04 8.23 2.00 8.92 9.85 9.00 4 2.50 7.03 10.78 9.06 7.97 10.67 10.83 8.38 3.85 9.31 12.62 10.85 5 4.11 8.75 11.56 9.84 10.78 12.00 12.08 9.69 8.62 11.23 12.85 12.23
To me it seems that 2004-2005 and 2010 were the years with the least competition but still you (and some others) only talk about after Marcus retired...
Also have in mind that in 2013 Ogier was way more dominant than Loeb ever was. Does this mean he didn't deserve the championship?
Absolutely, I'd have loved to see Loeb in the Ford or any other car in that period, however which driver in the history of the WRC has left the best team to find a new challenge? None.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
I think Loeb vs VW would have confirmed he is the greatest, but because he never took up the challenge there will always be question marks for some. How long can one man be at the top of his game though? Loeb passed his peak very gracefully, and in Monte Carlo he will show he is still the greatest despite a lack of rallying (and an inferior car).
In a way he did with the limited very last seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Doon
of course hi did it.Fast at every surface,inside the battle for win for all 4 rallies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Mainly true, but not completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doon
Kankunnen left Lancia, which was easily the best Group A team in 1987, because he felt that despite winning a the drivers championship for them, he was getting short-shrifted in favor of his Italian teammates. He spent two seasons driving an inferior Celica ST165 that was still being developed.
Sainz left what was arguably the best team in 1993 (Toyota Team Europe), apparently because his oil company sponsor (Repsol, I believe) was no longer sponsoring TTE, which was now sponsored by Castrol. He went over to a Lancia team that was no longer a works team.
There is no question mark. Loeb was close to retirement few years ago, and facing VW/Ogier challenge would not be in his favour at all, despite this was VW first year, he would never take the win here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doon
You mean he was getting extra money from his sponsor apart from the contract he had with the team?Quote:
Originally Posted by lewalcindor
That's twisted logic. It was him who made them looking like no opposition. If he was not there You could follow 5 years of battles for the title and maybe You would celebrate how great years those were. How would You know they were so bad if there was nobody better? It's Loeb who made them looking like bunch of amateurs and that's why he is the greatest of all because nobody else ever managed to beat his rivals for almost a decade so badly that people started to think others are just so bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
Yes. Apparently Repsol also provided money to back Sainz, and when Castrol came in to replace Repsol as the head sponsor of TTE, Sainz had to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by nafpaktos
so Sainz didn t choose to leave from a works team to a private team,but his personal sponsor.Quote:
Originally Posted by lewalcindor
Kankkunen left Lancia because somebody else was the favourate driver,and not to proove that he can win with another car/make.
May be that's why IRC was so popular those years. There was actually some competition....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
yeap because there wasnt any driver with big difference from the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
And why we should celebrate the "tradition" as it was few years ago, when it would be so much better at present?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
IRC was never popular... IRC was (and is) followed by some hardcore rally fans and that is it... you can see that from the amount of people you see on the stages.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Not that I would disagree with You but You chose a wrong argument. I'm pretty sure number of spectators on stages of Ypres or Barum has regularly exceeded many WRC events. I don't want to play numbers as it's a question how do organizations or police count spectators in each country but the only WRC rally which has clearly more spectators than Ypres is Argentina.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Somehow for me it seems IRC got more attention than WRC, despite the amount of people in the stages. WRC Rally is WRC Rally no matter what....Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Both Belgium and Czech republic do not have a WRC round... comparison is better done between countries that host both, or hosted one and the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
nobody celebrating the ''tradition'',just mentioning the facts as it was few years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
you really saw strong competition to Ogier this year or the previous?Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
How facts few years ago are relevant when You have actual competition at present, this is ridiculous....Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
No, but how is this relevant? Loeb absence?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
If he had lost a title too Hiroven or Latvala, or another to Solberg would you then regard him higher? The opposition was not weak, they just appeared to be as they were bettered so often by Loeb, as has been pointed out he ended the career of some big names who had absolutely no answer to his pace and consistency on all surfacesQuote:
Originally Posted by RAS007