Not only driving but also setting the suspension is absolutely vital on such events. It requires a lot of experience to make it right and that's part of the game. Yes, asphalt doesn't forgive mistakes but that's been a fact since forever.
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Not only driving but also setting the suspension is absolutely vital on such events. It requires a lot of experience to make it right and that's part of the game. Yes, asphalt doesn't forgive mistakes but that's been a fact since forever.
This whole discussion post-Rzeszow have revealed some people have quite weird look on rallying. How can these roads be too dangerous for rallying? As if it's roads fault some drivers can not adapt to conditions. Like it've been written here, this kind of roads require correct approach and experience. It doesn't come cheap. All in all, rallying in top level needs this kind of challenging roads. Tarmac is the ultimate test.
Totally agree. Some of the guys on twitter were Irish. I'm Irish and hearing them giving out saying that fast bumpy asphalt is too dangerous is highly hypocritical, when they proclaim their own home events the best in the world. Safety is touchy subject at the moment and some criticism is justified. Alot of them are getting on their high horse, thinking they have all the solutions, when all they really want is a re tweet from Colin Clark!
But it's Kubica who is a world champion (WRC2) and not Lukyanuk, who cannot win ERC third year in a row...Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
And talent!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I don´t see my view on rallying as weird, if it´s me you point out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
Having the combination of very demanding challenging fast roads requiring, and also as you point, talent, correct settings, correct judged speed, experience of adapting speed, then it should be it. But IF, and that is what appears on my mind, one or more of those skill/settings isn´t there the outcome is more than hazardous to life for drivers and spectators and secondly of course material (money)on those tarmac stages. And still you think it´s part of the game. Too risky in my point of view, being spectator for more than 55 years.
The examples of crashes were too many in combination with spectators on wrong places. Only luck that no fatal accidents occured. So not my way of rallying it is.
Why does rally racing need to test driver's talent to adapt to bumps? This is not talent when I think of rallying.
Is WRC some kind of Super Mario game, or what?
Whoever wants bumps, Dakar Rally is wide open.
Safety first, but if driver can't adapt to different roads and conditions and situations, circuit racing is wide open.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Yes, but tarmac is supposed to be circuit version of rallying, or am I wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by electroliquid
Maybe co-drivers have to learn to pickup apples while they jump over bumps. That will show who is the most talented.
Maybe, but I never heard about public tarmac road build special for rally. ;) If some guys/girls had problems and other don't - it's more or less OK, if all have had problems - its too difficult, if none have problems it's too easy. Nobody says rallying is easy, but there are crew who do it anyway, some better than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
That's true, but Kubica win against Al-Kuwari and Protasov, Lukyanuk fighting against Kajto and Breen. And also different levels of funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
Ok then, I'm all for bumps on F1 tracks then. That will show who the real talent in F1 is.Quote:
Originally Posted by electroliquid
Maybe F1 would become interesting then, but I doubt that...
You are very wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Apart from spectator safety, this is rallying at its best, seperates real drivers from the rest (surprise surprise, heavy foot isn`t the only key to succeed). All of them had the opportunity to recce the stages, didn`t they? A crash from these bumps is a simple pacenote error due to lack of experience or ones thinking ability. What would you all say when we had rally Kenya/ Safari or other physically and mentally demanding events?
That's not the whole picture... Al-Kuwari chose all possible rallies outside Europe (Mexico, Argentina, Australia - all of them he won), while Kubica did rallies only in Europe. In some of these rallies he had quite strong competition - enough to mention Paddon, Evans, Lappi, Ketomaa... Evans did 6 rallies in WRC2 that year and finished on 7 th position (two times not classified due to mechanical problems).Quote:
Originally Posted by electroliquid
So, your assumption is that rallying is only for experienced? The rest can be killed, no problem. What's wrong with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
Honestly, this is like the rough gravel stages debate; some still loving them but most people is glad to use less mechanical demanding roads and fell organizers are wise to abandon the harder ones. Maybe some tarmac rally organizers could also be a bit more sensible by getting alternative roads to the rougher sections, which somehow they believe are more challenging.
Although is quite true that drivers must adapt to road conditions, probably there’s little challenge on having to ease up the pace because the road is so damn irregular it becomes too easy to damage your car; still it’s fair to say that those complicated segments only appears a couple of times in Rzeszow Rally videos and overall the stages looks pretty exciting.
Yep, we’ve to admit that road diversity is one of the main assets of this great sport. Otherwise how would ‘potatoes fields’ gravel sections be so common and apparently so popular in Belgium and Holland tarmac rallys?!?
How can You even come to such conclusion is beyond me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Rallying was not born as a dirt racing sport. That's totally wrong perception coming from the fact that today's WRC is largely made of gravel events. Rallying was born on public roads and those are largely asphalt ones. Believe it or not there is more asphalt rallies in the world than gravel ones. That's because there is more asphalt public roads than gravel ones in rally countries. And it's perfectly ok and in line with rallying nature to race on such roads. There is absolutely nothing wrong about that.
Asphalt is difficult and so what? Maybe a bit more humbleness is needed from the drivers. It's not the road why they crash but it's because they don't drive the way to have things under control. The accidents often happen to remind the crews they are not that good as they think. The road isn't killing them. It's their own driving. It's their decision to take the risk and drive without having proper control of the situation.
Stages like those in Rzeszow, those in Ireland, those in Czech republic, Slovakia, Belgium, some in France, Croatia, Italy etc. have been used for ages. They didn't become a killer this weekend. They just caught out some drivers who weren't prepared or humble enough.
Have You watched footage from Rzeszow? The roads are not rough. The crashes were mostly caused by cutting where it was stupid to cut or by underestimating dirt thrown on the road by said cutting or by wrong pacenotes. Most of that is about experience and with that we are back to the humbleness. You don't try to be the fastest on top of Mt. Everest when You are there for the first time even when You climbed all other mountains around, do You?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Now you are talking rubbish. I wish no harm to anyone and thankfully we can say that cars are safe. And yes, this is isn`t a local championship, it`s ERC, where one should be more experienced and ready to cope with different conditions that different countries have to offer.Quote:
So, your assumption is that rallying is only for experienced? The rest can be killed, no problem. What's wrong with you?
Another point to bear in mind, this event was in the ERC... the European Rally Championship.
Not some village level rally for amateurs.
It's meant to be difficult.
Apparently you've miss my point; from the videos (no other way to say) the stages looked great and only ONE or TWO segments seemed to be more problematic. In that specific cases, especially if organizers have records of previous accidents, it'd be sensible to avoid them or try to make them less tricky (by chicane use, for instance). It may not sound popular, but improving safety standards never is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
+10Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
@Mirek In Nordic countries rallying was born from narrow gravel roads. Not from tarmac. The speed back then was maybe half of what it is today.
Maybe a rethink of the whole sport could be one solution. Or, like Rally Power says, a more humble organizer should have put up some chicanes at the well known hard places. And some fences for spectators.
Maybe you don't like Lukyanuk,but Kubica isn't different from Luky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
Rallying was not born in nordic countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
You'd think these were blind rallies !!
Crews do recce and write detailed pacenotes and have no excuse for not knowing 'difficult' sections.
(And the last thing we need are more artificial straw bale chicanes).
Accelerator pedal works both ways too...
Well, that´s an interesting question. However I said "in Nordic coutries rallies was born from narrow gravel roads" doesn´t need to mean rallying was born in Nordic countries. Even if tarmac was the historic surface doesn´t mean nowadays organizers are without responsibility having high dangerous rallies on tarmac knowing the fact that the speed is many times higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Well, but what was actually damaged in this rally, except cars? There`s a big difference between a crash and a crash. A high-speed roll seems violent but is usually much softer to the occupants than a fast stopping crash, which doesn`t always look half as bad.
guys... during last Rally Finland there was one corner where 17 cars went out... it was gravel event... during this event organizer put many chicanes and everyone complained... and it didn't help... so your solutions are not good...
same there in Finland like last weekend in Rzeszow it was simply mistakes or lower level of crews which led to so many offs...
pity to say, but level of the forum is going down, I still read, but very rarely I reply as I have a feeling is waste of time...
It seems there are different philosophies to approach rallying and clearly those two ends don't meet now.
Personally I see as a sport where organizers prepare a route that the competitors must pass as fast as possible. What lies behind the next corner is for the competitor to survive. Variety is everything. Rallies shouldn't be about guaranteed finishing.
Speaking about foundations of rallying, it's obvious it's born from upper class past time fun in early 1900s Central Europe. Those rallies had hardly any similarities to rallying what we have known for the past 55-60 years or so. Nordic events come into picture when the modern speed tests, special stages, were introduced. It happened simultaneously in many countries, but Nordic rallies bear a role. To link this all to this current discussion, and to provoke a little, Nordic influence on rallying is what makes the tarmac events nowadays sooooo dangerous.
I'm leaving here one short story from distant past.
I think it was in 1980 when Antonio Zanussi came to Zlín to take part in his first Barum rally. He didn't even start. He said he was not properly prepared for what he found in recce. He said he would return when he is ready. He was working hard to come back next year - for the victory achieved at first attempt. That's something which nobody achieved in the last ten years including roughly one half of current WRC drivers.
Most of todays "dangerous" route was run already in that time. The tyres were shit compared to today, the suspension was bad, brakes weak and the passive safety of the cars was better not to talk about.
Oh no, far from that. I like Lukyanuk's personality, positive attitude and admire his speed. I find him a true die-hard rally driver and a great attraction of each rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
But... some part of me simply doesn't respect drivers who crash in every second rally. I can't help it, it's in my blood. I have always admired drivers who came to a rally and, without knowing the stages by heart, were able to win the event in the first attempt. Like Aghini, Basso, Travaglia, Rossetti and other great names of the past in the ERC. The drivers who crash in every second rally usually disappear from the stages very quickly. Do you remember Evgeny Novikov?
With due respect br21, that’s not a very fair remark. If people, and especially insiders like you, can make more positive contributions why don’t they do it instead of moaning about how the forum level is getting down?Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
For sure my competitor experience was very limited (only a handful of events as driver or codriver in second level series) and so was my job as rally marshal, but I’ve learned a couple of things about the sport and one of them is that organizers can always try to improve safety.
Generally (not talking about Rzeszow anymore), if there’s the perfect notion that a specific stage point is too dangerous, organizers must act proactively; to get a couple of chicanes in those tricky spots can be a sensible solution. Apparently, that wasn’t the case in Finland, as chicanes were installed mainly to cope with FIA pressure to get average speed down.
That’s true; still, looking for safer ways to run motorsport is part of its evolution and survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
There is no ultimate safety solution for rallying and absolutely not for the cost of loosing the character of particular events. Even drivers disagree with You. You can ask them and nearly all would tell You they love Pindula which is probably one of the most dangerous and bumpy stages in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Rally Finland ended using the Humalamäki stage because of it´s danger. However gravel is a lot more forgiving surface for the drivers. Still many offs.
I´ll leave discussion here. We still have opposite thoughts. My point is a combination of safety for drivers AND spectators. Something I didn´t quite see on those vids from Poland.
Parts of Humalamäki stage have been used on local events in recent years. I can not name single stage in Finland that would've been binned because it's too dangerous. Maybe Ouninpohja would be the first in line. It has reputation, and that is also why notably small number of crashes happen there, because drivers approach it with thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Humalamäki was mostly dangerous because of crowd control issues. Ouninpohja is sure fast but also has good road surface. Last year Bertelli had a big crash that took his codriver to hospital and it wasn't even on the classic fast section...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
I general, I do agree with this statement, and I didn't try to make the opposite impression in this discussion, but .......Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
In this particular case, it's not "about variety", it's about crashing for sure if you don't slow down.
It's not about "guaranteed finishing", it's about guaranteed not finishing if you miss the place (which was very hard to spot) in the notes.
I'm sorry, but those few bumps were sending the car in the air, then landing in another bump, and then crash .......
As you said, the rally phylosopy is to pass all sections as fast as possible.
This particular place was all about slowing down. The only way to avoid crashing, was to slow down.
Experience in writing notes was the only skill tested here.
I don't think driver skills, or suspension setup could off avoided the crashes.
Things are not black and white as some here were trying to place them. Difficult/Technical sections yes, but not traps please.
Anyway, I'm also stepping out from this discussion.
Apparently I’m the last on this one and I’m sorry for the inconvenience, but aren’t those “tricky rally corner” lookalike videos the living proof that organizers can do better? If a rally stage turns into a crash parade won’t alarms go off? No matter if it’s on tarmac, gravel or snow, there should be a limit for the ‘it’s up to the drivers’ general principle, avoiding the sport to appear like a reckless freaky show. Or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker