The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017

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Originally Posted by Mirek

It was discussed previosuly in this thread (at least I hope it was in this one). Maybe You can find the discussion if You go back. I think it was Lundefaret who brought this idea. There are certainly valid points behind the idea but frankly I don't think it would make WRC cheaper. The carmakers have dedicated budget to spend and they spend it all no matter what the car regulations area. It's costly not because of technical regulations but because it is the pinacle of the sport.

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It was me, Lundafaret and some more people having that discussion and yeah, I more or less agree with you.

Plus you loose the connection with the grass roots of the sport where some pimple headed teen modifies his or her first ever car with a roll cage and some go fast bits and suddenly he or she is a rally driver.

The cost is more or less always what the team building the car has to spend. Sure, a spaceframe would be cheaper, but then you'll have so much money spent on dampers, engines and engine bits that those will be the expensive bits instead.

The budget is what it is and depends entirely on the following of the sport and how good a marketing tool the sport is perceived to be (and how much money the manuf. actually have to spend)!

We can see now that also the cost of the R5's are slowly creeping up with the Skoda being a bit over €200 000 despite efforts made to keep the costs down (the original Ford was something like €160 000) so development will always add costs where it is possible to develop.

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Originally Posted by itix

We can see now that also the cost of the R5's are slowly creeping up with the Skoda being a bit over €200 000 despite efforts made to keep the costs down (the original Ford was something like €160 000) so development will always add costs where it is possible to develop.

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Those values are underestimated. Used R5 cars are being sold around €200.000. Hard to believe that new cars can cost less than 250.000€.

But they do.

I think the regulations for R5 cars are the best possible at the moment. You can´t push the costs down, because something would go wrong. So now we have got something with same price as old S2000 cars but faster. Praying for more would be sin :) BTW. I have seen Koci driving Fiesta R5 right behind Melicharek with Fiesta WRC during spring Valasska rally and Koci was much more spectacular (and finally also faster) It was worth watching. So with good hands you can do anything. ;)

Top S2000 cars when on their peak were reasonably more expensive than R5 (I believe prices around 300 thousand Euros were not uncommon). The cost to run the two types of cars is not very different though.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

But they do.

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I can actually believe that. Used rally car market doesn't really work like a normal car market. The Skoda is new and hard to come by, so if someone sell one now that you can take to an event tomorrow, that is worth more than a new that you have to wait for.

I am pretty convinced that the price of a new one is not far off € 200 000 though and the trend is clear, the cost is creeping up. I think that R5 is the best regs we could possibly ask for and it is a shame that the new WRC -17 was not a form of R6 with a bit bigger Restrictor. That would have been better than going with center diffs and increased aerodynamics and other things that make the car go straight. A cheap sideways speed machine is probably what more or less everyone wish for!

new Skoda R5 "ready to win" package is 235k euros, Fiesta little bit less, similar PSA cars.

There are considerable differences between the price of a full options (gravel AND tarmac specs) R5 factory assembled car and the cost of the basic R5 kit (for just one type of road surface), that can be assembled in-house by the client. Either case, there are also taxes rates to be considered.

Currently, Peugeot 208 R5 Kit (tarmac OR gravel spec) costs 209.999€ (251.800€ with taxes). It's easy to understand that with the assembly cost and, if needed, the tarmac to gravel (or other way around) conversion kit, a new complete car bought from manus racing department will be very close to 300.000€ (VAT included).

The 208 kit price it's clearly mentioned on the order form (bon de commande): http://www.peugeotsport-store.com/do...id_rubrique=71

Sorry but no such thing like a kit exists with Fabia (Fiesta also only complete car I think). They sell only fully assembled cars and I know from several owners that the car cost them less than 250 thousand.

By the way since when do we speak about numbers with VAT?

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Sorry but no such thing like a kit exists with Fabia (Fiesta also only complete car I think). They sell only fully assembled cars and I know from several owners that the car cost them less than 250 thousand.
By the way since when do we speak about numbers with VAT?

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Let me guess, the price you've heard was 249.999€, right? And VAT, even if you get it back later, has to be paid, so it's better to sort all the numbers out.

It's true that Skoda and Msport only sells assembled cars, but from the 208 kit price it became clear that the price of a new R5 full spec car it's around 250.000€ (without taxes).

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Originally Posted by itix

I think that R5 is the best regs we could possibly ask for and it is a shame that the new WRC -17 was not a form of R6 with a bit bigger Restrictor. That would have been better than going with center diffs and increased aerodynamics and other things that make the car go straight. A cheap sideways speed machine is probably what more or less everyone wish for!

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Totally agree! Msport R5+ Fiesta gave a pretty good idea of what a R6 car could be, and the sport would hugely benefit from having WRC top category closer to the regional and national classes.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Let me guess, the price you've heard was 249.999€, right? And VAT, even if you get it back later, has to be paid, so it's better to sort all the numbers out.

It's true that Skoda and Msport only sells assembled cars, but from the 208 kit price it became clear that the price of a new R5 full spec car it's around 250.000€ (without taxes).

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You said You can't believe that they cost under 250 thousand. Me and Br21 (who definitely knows how much they cost, You shall belive him) have told You You are wrong. Don't start some gymnastics about single Euros (it's not single Euros anyway).

This is exactly what You wrote and what was addressed as wrong.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Those values are underestimated. Used R5 cars are being sold around €200.000. Hard to believe that new cars can cost less than 250.000€.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Totally agree! Msport R5+ Fiesta gave a pretty good idea of what a R6 car could be, and the sport would hugely benefit from having WRC top category closer to the regional and national classes.

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R5 cars have real problem with reliability. It's very very difficult for them to finish WRC event withou technical problems. Do You think that overpowered R5 can somehow magically survive more? It can do short national events for sure but WRC ones? I'm quite sure they must be less reliable than normal R5 and as such be also a lot more costly to run (You can again ask Br21 how much the gearbox or diffs of R5 can survive).

By the way the most powerful R5 cars of today have engines fully comparable with late 90' WRC. I don't think that it wouldn't be enough.

Skoda full spec costs 235k euros in gravel or tarmac, assembled car. For Fiesta we paid not much less if I remember right, for almost full spec assembled car, gravel or tarmac. I also know someone who get disassembled car from them, but price was very similar, just it was very basic spec, so little bit cheaper.
PSA cars you can but in kits, but also for something around 210k euros.
Obvious is when you buy car it's only in tarmac or gravel spec, so if you wish you need to get other kit, which costs a lot. But counting like that doesn't make sense, as if you will order i.e. 30 magnesium rims it will immediately add 15k euros.
99% people/teams who bought cars they paid 0% VAT.

Fiesta R5+ is nice to drive, but very often you have some problems with it as it's not that well developed like normal R5. Problems I mean with mapping and parts which are different from normal R5. Other, typical R5 car parts are getting worn much faster than in normal R5. Engine kms for example you count x1,5.

In my opinion R5 car (Fiesta in my case) can do typical (not very rough) WRC event without problems, but you really need to have car well prepared (which means a lot of investments - tests to check potential problems and new parts before the rally) plus change some parts during the rally.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

You said You can't believe that they cost under 250 thousand. Me and Br21 (who definitely knows how much they cost, You shall belive him) have told You You are wrong. Don't start some gymnastics about single Euros (it's not single Euros anyway).

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Honestly, I found that the one who has been doing gymnastics about the R5 prices it's you, because you weren't clear enough from the start.

I do believe Br21 info, but I found (and Br can confirm it) that 235k it's the value for a tarmac car, without the gravel conversion kit.

So a full spec (tarmac AND gravel) R5 car price is: basic version + conversion kit = over 250.000€ (without taxes).

PS: I see Br21 has already do it.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

Honestly, I found that the one who has been doing gymnastics about the R5 prices it's you, because you weren't clear enough from the start.

I do believe Br21 info, but I found (and Br can confirm it) that 235k it's the value for a tarmac car, without the gravel conversion kit.

So a full spec (tarmac AND gravel) R5 car price is: basic version + conversion kit = over 250.000€ (without taxes).

PS: I see Br21 has already do it.

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Nobody has ever spoken about the car in both asphalt and gravel spec. Such combination has been never used for comparison of car prices regardless the class. Every car in the world gets naturally more expensive if You buy both specs. The only thing what it is good for is to make the price looking worse, same goes about Your counting VAT which is simple nonsense.

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Originally Posted by br21

Obvious is when you buy car it's only in tarmac or gravel spec, so if you wish you need to get other kit, which costs a lot. But counting like that doesn't make sense, as if you will order i.e. 30 magnesium rims it will immediately add 15k euros.

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30 rims has to be considered spare parts but the gravel kit price it's essential to understand the full price of the car, as it's due to rally both surfaces (and probably most costumers use it that way).

Anyway, thanks for your clear inside views.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

30 rims has to be considered spare parts but the gravel kit price it's essential to understand the full price of the car, as it's due to rally both surfaces (and probably most costumers use it that way).

Anyway, thanks for your clear inside views.

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Most customer don't need both kits. That's the case in Portugal but for example here in CZ nearly nobody has gravel kit. Same applies to Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Slovakia, Denmark or for pure gravel countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden. In many other countries the gravel and asphalt events are not part of the same championship and therefore many owners have only one kit (France, Italy, Spain).

Mr. Serious, how can you know who has it all. Sixth sense?

BTW - the thread is about "The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017"!!!

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Most customer don't need both kits. That's the case in Portugal but for example here in CZ nearly nobody has gravel kit. Same applies to Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Slovakia, Denmark or for pure gravel countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden. In many other countries the gravel and asphalt events are not part of the same championship and therefore many owners have only one kit (France, Italy, Spain).

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The 2 most important international championships on which R5 cars can compete (WRC2 and ERC) are mixed surface series, so it must be sufficient to understand the relevance of knowing a full spec car price.

In 2nd hand ads (notably at rallycarsforsale.net), the majority of R5 owners mention the availability of gravel (or tarmac) kits and some expressly refer that VAT it's not included on the advertised price.

Over & Out.

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Originally Posted by danon

Mr. Serious, how can you know who has it all. Sixth sense?

BTW - the thread is about "The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017"!!!

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Danon is right, this discussion actually belongs in the R5 thread. I only mentioned it as an example of "development will make (relatively) cheap machinery expensive again, hence I don't believe in space frames for cheapness...", not as a base for a topic that belongs in another thread.

Also, it is no longer a car anymore and has no connection to the real world or to the sport's grass roots. Space frames work in Nascar because nobody would ever try to consider that a car anyway. Also nascar is possibly the most boring motor sport on the planet so why we would go there for inspiration is beyond me.

https://scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...13042155_o.jpg

I think that's fake/photoshop. Can't really see it anywhere else other than on FB... so I doubt it is official!

Marcus Grönholm & Timo Rautiainen testing again with new Polo WRC 2017 today

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR2Z6_7XAAA9MWJ.jpg:large

cars are looking more like a track car instead of a rally car..... :(

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Originally Posted by omer yetis

cars are looking more like a track car instead of a rally car..... :(

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My thoughts exactly. Speaking of 2017 concepts... how about this one? :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJZjjaContk

I like it. And it's even cheaper to produce than an R5 car... :D

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Originally Posted by omer yetis

cars are looking more like a track car instead of a rally car..... :(

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maybe because it was tarmac test ?

Yes, track car :)

http://carsenc.com/uploads/audi/audi...ttro-s1-08.jpg

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Originally Posted by itix

Also, it is no longer a car anymore and has no connection to the real world or to the sport's grass roots. Space frames work in Nascar because nobody would ever try to consider that a car anyway. Also nascar is possibly the most boring motor sport on the planet so why we would go there for inspiration is beyond me.

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NASCAR (Sprint Cup Series) is the one of the biggest (if not the biggest) motorsports in the World - and enjoys the largest, and most loyal fanbase. It consists of 36 racers (where the Daytona 500 is one of the largest public sporting events in the World.)

So itix, the main question here is not if You or I as individuals like NASCAR racing or not, but to find out why so many do, and what they love about it. That way we can open up our minds and learn something.

For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there! :)

It's not all rosy for the Daytona 500 and overall NASCAR though. The event attendance goes down year to year and this is not because people watch it on TV as their ratings decline as well. I'm sure there is always something to learn from other motorsports, but let's not pretend that grass on the other side of the fence is greener.

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

NASCAR (Sprint Cup Series) is the one of the biggest (if not the biggest) motorsports in the World - and enjoys the largest, and most loyal fanbase. It consists of 36 racers (where the Daytona 500 is one of the largest public sporting events in the World.)

So itix, the main question here is not if You or I as individuals like NASCAR racing or not, but to find out why so many do, and what they love about it. That way we can open up our minds and learn something.

For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there! :)

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Mmmm I have some doubts here. You say: "For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there."

Partially agree. But we should not think that "more audience" means "more people paying attention to rally". This reasonment could open dangerous possibilities, like going towards tastes of masses and loose your identity. It's like you have a web magazine about art or literature, and you want more users but to get more clics you start to publish buzz stuff and trash content.
I'm sure you don't think or want this, and you are referring to NASCAR car concept but also in this case I would not watch too much to NASCAR and his couch-lazy public.

There is lot in common in all motorsport - crazy speed and lot of noise. If FIA/promoter want more public in Rally, they should do something in that direction (as simple it may sounds). Behind the curtains there is lot more to achieve that in ever aspect of motorsport - circuit races are easier to organize and cheaper - more races, probably more public (just like the football - almost every weekend). I agree though Rally looses its identity in that direction. Many people are nostalgic about Group B including me - for that times it just worked.... for awhile. There was just some "magic" about it. It is not anymore to get more and more people in the stages, difficulties with the safety you know, but actually transfer the "real" Rally to internet/TV. So far the promoter is doing well in that respect.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/EkrmN1mSjew

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

NASCAR (Sprint Cup Series) is the one of the biggest (if not the biggest) motorsports in the World - and enjoys the largest, and most loyal fanbase. It consists of 36 racers (where the Daytona 500 is one of the largest public sporting events in the World.)

So itix, the main question here is not if You or I as individuals like NASCAR racing or not, but to find out why so many do, and what they love about it. That way we can open up our minds and learn something.

For when whole families couch down in front of their TVs to watch a several hours long race where very similar looking cars go around a circle 500 times, one should pay attention, because then there is something there! :)

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I usually think your analysis is very good and detailed but your both wrong and right in this instance.

You are right that Nascar is achieving well for it's spectacle... over achieving quite a lot i'd say. But it is also molded for an american audience to fit like a glove on a hand. If americans seriously promoted rallying and if it had american roots, they would manage to make an equal following out of that.

Fortunately (I say as a european), that's not the case as I would not enjoy it. For me, nascar is beyond boring. I'd rather watch paint dry or grass grow. No one thinks of them as cars, they don't even look like cars you can buy. All they ever do is drive in circles forever and ever and ever.... the races are many many hours long and nothing ever happens.

I'd say part of it's success in america is the american tendency to add drama to everything. Discovery channel came and did a documentary/show once out of one of my old workplaces. Everything was calm, standard and smooth sailing, nothing strange at all and yet when you watched the documentary afterwards and how they had produced it, it seemed like everything was falling apart all the time and we were just managing to keep the operations together and there was the hurry and the time stress etc etc... which was all BS and exaggeration.

The WRC promoter does kinda the opposite. They take away drama where there is drama (in my opinion anyway) and the TV production is seriously lacking what is actually going on out on the stages. Don't get me wrong, they have very nice looking TV pictures of cars going past pretty locations, but the drama is lacking.

I think we should maybe look at Nascar TV production and where they do well in those respects rather than try to copy their machinery which really isn't the best aspect of the nascar spectacle.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

maybe because it was tarmac test ?

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I don't think front bumper & splitter has anything to do with the tarmac test but the aero pack?

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Originally Posted by omer yetis

I don't think front bumper & splitter has anything to do with the tarmac test but the aero pack?

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It may only be fitted for tarmac... that splitter wouldn't last long on a bumpy gravel event ...

Plus the car wouldn't look so much like a 'track-car' on on its gravel suspension.

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Originally Posted by itix

I usually think your analysis is very good and detailed but your both wrong and right in this instance.

You are right that Nascar is achieving well for it's spectacle... over achieving quite a lot i'd say. But it is also molded for an american audience to fit like a glove on a hand. If americans seriously promoted rallying and if it had american roots, they would manage to make an equal following out of that.

Fortunately (I say as a european), that's not the case as I would not enjoy it. For me, nascar is beyond boring. I'd rather watch paint dry or grass grow. No one thinks of them as cars, they don't even look like cars you can buy. All they ever do is drive in circles forever and ever and ever.... the races are many many hours long and nothing ever happens.

I'd say part of it's success in america is the american tendency to add drama to everything. Discovery channel came and did a documentary/show once out of one of my old workplaces. Everything was calm, standard and smooth sailing, nothing strange at all and yet when you watched the documentary afterwards and how they had produced it, it seemed like everything was falling apart all the time and we were just managing to keep the operations together and there was the hurry and the time stress etc etc... which was all BS and exaggeration.

The WRC promoter does kinda the opposite. They take away drama where there is drama (in my opinion anyway) and the TV production is seriously lacking what is actually going on out on the stages. Don't get me wrong, they have very nice looking TV pictures of cars going past pretty locations, but the drama is lacking.

I think we should maybe look at their TV production and where they do well in those respects rather than try to copy their machinery which really isn't the best aspect of the nascar spectacle.

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I think You are right on the money itix, and this is what I was referring to.

If You have a sport that in the outset has the potential to be extremely boring (cars driving around in circles), and You make that extremely appealing, then there is something to be learned.

I completely agree with You in that I also think (know), that much of the problem lays with how rally is broadcast. What stories are told. What stories are left untold. And how they are told.

When it comes to NASCAR they are extremely good at this, and the fan involvement is second to no sport in the whole world. They even have fans calling to the show, and put them over so they can talk with their star drivers while they are racing (when there is a caution flag), and they even promote the drivers to tweet during the race (in the caution). So they are extremely good at getting the word across - and the WRC should learn a lot of NASCAR.

The space frame thing, is really not so important for me. I just know that it could cut the cost by a huge margin, and open up for the possibility of putting the driver in the centre of the car, and the codriver behind him (I think driver safety is VERY important). And it was used in rallying during rallyings most epic years (group B with Peugeot 205, Lancia S4, Lancia 037 etc), and I dont hear anyone complain about them cars not being road car derived.

The latest "Group B" car was the Pikes Peak Peugeot, which also was a space frame, and I think that car looks a lot cooler than todays WRC cars. Space frame opens up for changing the body, without developing a whole new car, wich would cut the development cost by a significant amount.

But as I say - the WRC has a lot to learn from NASCAR in a lot of ways :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR8gYq8UcAEmMWo.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CR8gZAuUcAAqKeu.jpg

they managed to make polo ugly.
What a bunch of amateurs...

That front splitter is hideous..!!
It's more like pre-2011 COT..

It's beyond hideous. I have never been a fan of big splitters and this is no exception. The polo was in my opinion already the most ugly of the WRC cars and now it is even uglier. I know you are trying to create a fleet of Audi Quattro S1's but I doubt anyone likes that car for it's looks (more likely the sound and the way it goes).

The bigger restrictor and increased power were steps in the right direction. The increased track width was probably too... the greater overhang and increased spoiler size allowed was probably not so much :/