another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by henners88

And here is me with the old fashioned deadlock on the front door, burglar alarm with activated zones and a phone by my bed lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Some of us have far more faith in our own ability to protect ourselves than the police department on the other end of that line. Obviously you have never been the victim of a violent home invasion.

I found this article very telling and serious.
It's serious stuff.

'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': When Parents Are Afraid of Their Children
http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/1...their-children

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Gun deaths in rapid decline since buyback - National - smh.com.au
The new report, titled Australia's 1996 Gun Law Reforms: Faster Falls in Firearm Deaths, Firearm Suicides and a Decade without Mass Shootings, finds that in the 18 years before the gun buyback there were an average of 492 firearm suicides a year.
After the introduction of the buyback scheme, that figure dropped to 247 in the seven years for which reliable figures are available.

Perhaps most telling is the statistic from 2011:
Homicide and related offences:
Homicide - with firearms: 30
(source) - 1301.0 - Year Book Australia, 2012

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Actually, the current stats are a bit misleading Rollo, because much of the murders since 1996 resulted from the drug wars and many of them were caused by gangsters killing each other(read Carl Williams vs Morans), gangsters killing police (Walsh St murder) by Victor Pierce, and also Benji Veniamin who was a henchman of Carl Williams who was killed by Mick Gatto. I do remember one guy recently who was off his nutter about 3 years ago,who chased two associates into a park off Lygon St and killed them. Most of the shootings these days (and they are a regular occurrence), are bikies/drugs related. But we don't have these machine gun random killings here since 1996. If you guys google the above namesand/or UNDERBELLY, it makes for a very interesting read.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Actually, the current stats are a bit misleading Rollo, because much of the murders since 1996 resulted from the drug wars and many of them were caused by gangsters killing each other

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That would suggest that the rest of society is even safer because gangsters and organised crime tends to add to the rates of homicide.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Some of us have far more faith in our own ability to protect ourselves than the police department on the other end of that line. Obviously you have never been the victim of a violent home invasion.

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Do you have an incompetent police department or is society so violent, that you've crossed the line that they literally can not do their job anymore?

That rather tells the story then doesn't it? If one has never been the victim of a violent home invasion, then that says that they society is safer based on the very small scope of evidence.
I would prefer to live in Mr Henners88's town than yours.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

If you are ignorant of the facts why do you insist on commenting?

One more time.

What you call "Assault" weapons are just mean looking guns and Automatic rifles are heavily regulated, cost 1000's of dollars and require a F.B.I. background Check along with permission from the local constabulary.


OK Nobody is walking down to the local gun shop and walking out with a machine gun. Got it?

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Gun shows?

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Gun shows?

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I am astonished how anthonyvop has no idea what is happening at the gun shows, where sellers can be unlicenced and can sell to anyone without any permit. This is the loophole that some Democrat senators are trying to block. I don't blame anthony, I first found out about it in the Baldacci books.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Gun shows?

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Bingo! You don't even need to show identification, and it's cash only.

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Originally Posted by Starter

I am sure that you will be able to hold the criminal at bay with a rousing chat, while waiting for the police to respond from the alarm or phone call. ;)

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Over here I doubt said criminal would carry a gun, but hey ho.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Some of us have far more faith in our own ability to protect ourselves than the police department on the other end of that line. Obviously you have never been the victim of a violent home invasion.

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No, and the thought has never crossed my mind that one might occur, because I don't live in a constant state of fear.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Over here I doubt said criminal would carry a gun, but hey ho.

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You never know. anthonyvop might be on another of his legendary European sojourns.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Some things just aren't risking your life for and some things just aren't worth getting paranoid about.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

You never know. anthonyvop might be on another of his legendary European sojourns.

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I'll keep an eye out, if it's him I'll set the wife on him - then he'll be sorry! ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I'll keep an eye out, if it's him I'll set the wife on him - then he'll be sorry! ;)

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Even that will be no defence against FREEDOM.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Even that will be no defence against FREEDOM.

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Wanna bet, she'd talk him to death........

But I get your point.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Regarding this thread: If you can stand there and shoot your Mother in the face then gun control is far from the answer.

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You just don't get it. If that whack job had been in Australia then we wouldn't be having this conversation because he wouldn't have had easy access to a small cache of guns and wouldn't have been able to easily kill those kids. Our gun control laws work because they have prevented our society from being flooded with guns. Gun control does work if the will is there. Unfortunately, the will of the US is sadly lacking.

It's called harm minimisation. You aren't going to be able to stop every nutcase from going on a rampage but you can limit the damage they can do by restricting access to the tool, ie. the gun, that makes their rampages all the more deadly. How many of those kids would still be alive if the killer could use nothing more than a melee weapon? I'm going to guess almost all of them.

I think (one of) the hurdles they will face in the States in respect of tighter gun control is the mentality that 'he's got a bigger gun than me'.

As for the mother of the killer in this instance - suvivalists really should be the last people to be given access to guns, because rationality and clear thought during a massive catastrophe goes out the window.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...22253703_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...22253703_n.jpg

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There's nothing like getting your priorities right, is there?

So , we have a country where , in most places , guns are not allowed into schools .
Then , we get a shooting in a school . And , then another .
And , the decision in some places , is to require guns in the school ?

So , which is the right way to go ?
Perhaps , mental health counsellors armed with semi-autos .

By the way , I didn't lock my doors last night .
The only time I have , since I moved here in 1990 , has been when I am not here .

Ironically , the only time I have had any sort of home invasion was once , when a member of the local constabulary came in through my residential door , and through into my store , where he left a note on one of his cards on the store counter , informing us that the store was not secure .

Actually , I guess that's not totally true , as , last year , not long before Christmas , a deer came storming in the front door , and out the front window one evening .
I guess a gun might have helped in that case , had I been there .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Actually , I guess that's not totally true , as , last year , not long before Christmas , a deer came storming in the front door , and out the front window one evening .
I guess a gun might have helped in that case , had I been there .

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Not worth it. You would have been fined a couple of bucks for discharging a firearm within city limits.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Sadly, I feel as if it's after September 11th again, and fear is going to lead Americans into stupid decisions (unPATRIOTic Act). For example, Rick Perry (Governor of Texas) has stated that he wants Texas to be ready for a gun-wielding attack in schools. There's discussion of making the "guardian plan" a statewide law.

Texas school where teachers carry guns prepared to protect students | Crime and Safety |...

...

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Good Lord, that is a depressing indication of a degenerating society :s

To each, his own . . .

Less lethal but no less alarming, China deals with school attacks - The Maddow Blog

Pretty much sums up the whole gun control debate

Do guns kill people? Pistol, shotgun, assault rifle put to the test - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Starter

Not worth it. You would have been fined a couple of bucks for discharging a firearm within city limits.

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It was only one buck , as far as I know .

And , I doubt I would have been fined , as , in this case , it would easily have been seen as self-defense .
Those antlers were sharp . I have witnesses .

And , I live in a village , not a city .

There are a fair few guns around here .
Vests are orange and necks are red .
Almost all are long guns , and many involve pretty hefty stopping power , if you needed defense , but are meant for deer , duck , bear , moose , goose , or other furry and feathery foes .
Incidentally , there are seemingly two schools of thought for the rifle hunter , much like there are for the fisher .
Like the angler , who is more revered by some , for pulling the fifty-two inch muskie in with four pound test than on a hundred , the hunter who bags the bear with a twenty-two is a god .

They work for self-defense , but are a little harder to conceal than the average handgun , so are perhaps not the best choice for someone who desires some close range retribution .

People hunt people with handguns .
People hunt animals with rifles , and can protect themselves from people as well .


So , consider this :
Could there be a simple exchange for people to give up the handgun in return for a rifle ?

We get nowhere repeating rhetoric at each other .
Could there be a way in that to find a solution ?


I was in Switzerland many years ago and was told that a long gun is a requirement in each household .
I am not sure that is true , but I was told it was a condition derived from desire for national defense , and that , as a result , almost the entire population could be mobilized almost instantly as a civilian militia .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

It was only one buck , as far as I know .

And , I doubt I would have been fined , as , in this case , it would easily have been seen as self-defense .
Those antlers were sharp . I have witnesses .

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Wondered if you'd pick up on the pun. :D

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So , consider this :
Could there be a simple exchange for people to give up the handgun in return for a rifle ?

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Definitely would work for some. I'd find it a tad difficult to fit the long gun in my nightstand though.

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We get nowhere repeating rhetoric at each other .
Could there be a way in that to find a solution ?

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Oh I agree with that. Many of the posters here keep spewing the same tired arguments over and over, ignoring the real world around them. Most are Europeans, who don't seem to have a good feel for the size of this country (Canada too). There are many people here who do not live in cities & towns. A call to the police, or the fire department for that matter, can result in a wait of a half hour in some places. The folks along the Mexican border, in cities and countryside, have the added pleasure of drug cartels running their lucrative trade through their backyards.

Find a solution? I'm not convinced there is a short or medium term solution. It would be nice if people stopped shooting other people without a really, really good reason. It would be even better if we could have better recognition and treatment for the people with mental issues. We should also note that all of the mass shootings had mental issues involved. I don't have much of an issue with loopholes like gun shows (no background checks) being closed, that's very reasonable. But the call for banning private possession of firearms, I draw the line there.

Hypothetically, assuming the will were there and it was feasible, people fortified schools or provided armed guards at schools, what would happen? The next fanatic attacks a shopping mall instead. Then they fortify or guard shopping malls as well, what would happen? The next fanatic attacks a condominium. They fortify condominiums (more than they are at present). The next fanatic looks for the next soft target and attacks a spots complex. etc etc

Conversely, assuming the will were there and it was feasible, they banned civilans owning guns then what would the fanatic do? Probably use a knife, an axe or a machete. Would he be able to kill so many people so readily?

But, the will must be there and some posters here are demonstrating that in some cases it is not. And it must be feasible and given the numbers of guns in circulation a ban is not feasible.

So, assuming the will is there to do something, what can be done? It would have to be in stages, say:
(1) The government could make licencing of all guns mandatory
(2) After a couple of years introduce swingeing penalties for possession of an unlicenced gun and couple it with a 'hand in guns'
(3) Introduce 'surrender your arms' or, if the budget could support it 'buy back guns'
(4) combine this with education on what freedoms and fundamental rights really mean
etc

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Originally Posted by henners88

Well considering there is more chance I could be struck by lightning than have someone rob my house armed, its not generally something I would get overly paranoid about. ;)

If I lived in a country where they sold guns to civilians for protection purposes then its highly likely that an intruder would be carrying a gun anyway. I suppose a good example for comparison is armed street crime. In the UK we have instances of muggings, and street robberies where knives are involved. Its uncommon but does happen. I think there is such a difference in mentality between our nations though. You guys (some of you) arm yourselves for the possible however remote whereas we wouldn't even think to do that. If that was the case every citizen in the UK would carry a knife just in case they are mugged by someone using a knife. That would be a dangerous situation IMO and the best reaction is to give them what they want and try not to risk your life in the process. Some things just aren't risking your life for and some things just aren't worth getting paranoid about.

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The difference is many cities in this country is many criminals aren't content with "merely" robbing you. We live in our country, you live in yours. What works in yours will not work in ours. Criminals don't just turn in their guns.

I know there are many among us that are cynics when it comes to what this country (USA) can really do to get out of this crazy rut.


The sentiment out here is very strong with people demanding change.
Our politicians are being asked to make a stand so it will be very interesting to see what will actually transpire.


This goes from the president, to the senators, to the governors, to the mayors and to all the citizens of this country that actually want their chosen representatives to represent their voices.


This could really be a turning point and it is an understatement to say that this is great opportunity for this great country right now.


Many people are sad, many people are pissed off -


. . . . to be continued.

“You can have my guns when you take them from my cold, dead hands.” quote Heston a true American

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Originally Posted by Roamy

“You can have my guns when you take them from my cold, dead hands.” quote Heston a true American

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ahhhhhh . . . who could forget the old Moses when he took his NRA stand. ;)

But I do hope that as part of this change that we have the chance to seriously tackle,
that mental illness issues are given top priority.

I think USA is going to increase the abundance of weapons and be more lenient with conceal carry laws. If anything, Sandy Hook has made people more scared and paranoid. Guns will actually be more of an expensive commodity because gun prices have done nothing but increase since the shooting at Sandy Hook.

$800 AR-15s are now going for a minimum of $1000-1200 in some places. Ridiculous!

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Originally Posted by Roamy

“You can have my guns when you take them from my cold, dead hands.” quote Heston a true American

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Yeah, well, he's dead now, so I guess some widower has already snatched up that gat.

Edit: What the hell is a "true American?"

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

I was in Switzerland many years ago and was told that a long gun is a requirement in each household .
I am not sure that is true , but I was told it was a condition derived from desire for national defense , and that , as a result , almost the entire population could be mobilized almost instantly as a civilian militia .

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This is true. However and this is just a few of the conditions from Swiss gun legislation:
- all automatic weapons banned.
- all semi-automatic weapons banned.
- all people must get a Weapons Purchasing Permit (and pass a criminal background and psychological test).
- to carry a gun on the street requires a Weapons Carrying Permit (they are normally only given to security and the police).
- all private weapons must be stored in a locked box.
- until 2007, government issued ammunition was kept in sealed boxes which was a criminal offence to open. Now ammunition is not kept at civilian premises.
SR 514.541 Verordnung ber Waffen, Waffenzubehr und Munition
SR 514.54 Bundesgesetz vom 20. Juni 1997 ber Waffen, Waffenzubehr und Munition (Waffengesetz, WG) (there is a PDF on this page which is quite extensive)

If America tried to enact similar legislation, all automatic and semi-automatic weapons would have to be seized immediately, as would virtually all ammunition, locked boxes would be required in people's houses that had guns and most people would be disallowed from carrying a gun outside.

It would however be closer to the actual wording of the second amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Switzerland probably has the most highly regulated rules for gun ownership in the Western World. This point is almost always ignored by pro-gun people in the United States.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

But I do hope that as part of this change that we have the chance to seriously tackle,
that mental illness issues are given top priority.

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I'm with you 100% on that.

Though, on second thought, some of us motorsports junkies may have to start looking over our shoulders for the people in the white coats.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Edit: What the hell is a "true American?"

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I was going to say an indian, but they're immigrants too, just been here longer.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

It would however be closer to the actual wording of the second amendment:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

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You've overlooked the other part of the second amendment, which I've highlighted for you.

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Originally Posted by Starter

You've overlooked the other part of the second amendment, which I've highlighted for you.

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No I didn't:

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Originally Posted by Rollo

all automatic and semi-automatic weapons would have to be seized immediately, as would virtually all ammunition, locked boxes would be required in people's houses that had guns and most people would be disallowed from carrying a gun outside

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You can still bear arms with appropriate regulation. It doesn't interfere with the wording of the Amendment at all.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

No I didn't:


You can still bear arms with appropriate regulation. It doesn't interfere with the wording of the Amendment at all.

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No you can't - from your quote ....."most people would be disallowed".....

So you're cherry picking words to look at an argument, just like you choose to interpret the legislation. That's dishonest and a formal fallacy.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

ahhhhhh . . . who could forget the old Moses when he took his NRA stand. ;)

But I do hope that as part of this change that we have the chance to seriously tackle,
that mental illness issues are given top priority.

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yes mental illness and guns do not mix. This was a case of just that. What the hell was she thinking putting guns in the hands of this whack kid. He was diagnosed so something could have been done. The father also apparently knew of this and he did nothing except pay a bunch of money. This is a avenue to move forward. Lord knows we have enough bandwidth to have a database.

And Gloomy a true american is one who follows the constitution.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

So you're cherry picking words to look at an argument, just like you choose to interpret the legislation. That's dishonest and a formal fallacy.

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The freedoms we enjoy as part of our Bill of Rights does not contain anything about "some people" or "certain people" or "need special permission" or "only members of a certain group". It says "The people".
Interpret that yourself.