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Probably you are right, but don't be surprised that the other side may respond with intolerance, if you are intolerant. For example, when atheists actively ridicule the beliefs of people, why they are surprised when religious cuckoos claim that their freedom is threatened?Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
There is always a limit, the problem is finding a limit everyone in a particular society agrees on.
Take the forums here, for example... I'm sure we're all pretty intolerant towards things like religion induced terrorism or genocide.
However I doubt we can all ever agree on "Thou shall not kill", be it in one direction (capital punishment) or the other (abortion), or on whether the word marriage can be used for non-heterosexual civil unions, or on stem cell research, just to name a few of the many other contentious topics...
@donks - Why not intolerance to genital mutilation of infants? :p
One thing I would like to add is that being critical of something isn't the same as being intolerant. One must not forget that until relatively recently if one dared criticise religion they would end up being burned at the stake.
agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
And lactose intolerance.
This explains why I don't have issues with my religion. Because such punishments never occured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
Orthodox priests had their way also to punish people, even in recent times.
No mater which religion they have none of them are angels.
Such as....?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Of course not. They're still humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Yes, but there is other examples, in my country, while the commies took power, they were really intolerant to religious people and killed many priests, because they (the commies) were hardcore atheists. So atheism could be very intolerant as well.
They killed the priests because the Commies were atheists?Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Or because the Church was and is an integral part of the capitalists system and a major part ---with their pretty stories about obedience to authority and a wonderful AFTERlife---of how the whole system was perpetuated?
Cause you know that Revolutions of all sorts usually want to topple the existing power structure, and the Church 000or something calling itself "the church" is usually part of the power structure..
The French Revolution wasn't too nice to the Church, the Mexican Revolution of 18 whatever stripped the church of its wealth which was overwhelmingly the biggest collective wealth in the country by mega factors, ....
Half of my country is sick and tired past their eyebrows of whore-politicians listening to so called "Christian Conservatives" who are relentless in trying to force their vision of a Taliban-like theocracy on the rest of us.
Pretty understandable why the commies would have animosity.
"You cannot serve two masters" some guy once said..
There was this exorcism case not long ago in Romania, pretty nasty one and not the only one either.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Funny how that didn't really happened in Romania.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
In fact in Romania most priests became informers of the Secret Police (Securitate) and sent many people to sure death.
Maybe your priests had a spine and didn't want to become informers, though I somehow doubt it.
They weren't intolerant because they were atheist. They were intolerant because they were communist.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Might be true. Most of people joined the Communist Party from opportunism and not because they believed in the „cause”. At least in my country communism was imposed not wanted. Many of them continued to follow the religious traditions avoiding to be seen in a church ( example: they wanted to baptize their children, it wasn’t legally forbidden but their presence in the church could add a black page in their „file”, so they called the priest at home and did the service in the bathroom using the bathtub as a font :laugh: ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
However communists can be blamed for horrible crimes, priests can't. And it's fair to say that simply following a rite doesn't make you a good christian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ioan
It’s with regret that I have (again!) to say you’re completely lost from the realities of your country. History is based on documents and not on what you listern at a queue in Matache market.
It’s a fact that there were informers among priests – this phenomenon occured esp in the last years of communism and I don’t think they did a lot of harm. The anticommunist feeling was quasi general in that period. Even “Secu” closed their eyes and only add “facts” at our files. And informers were among all of us, doctors, teachers, scientists, artists, writers or simply workers or peasants.
It’s also a fact (but you seem to ignore it, hopefully you do it from lack of knowledge ) that in the stalinist period ( the one when you risked to be sent in jail or channel for a simple joke and when most of the horrible communist crimes had happened in communist camps) many priests were those who supported the resistance fight against communism, many of them were sent to jail –sometimes for the only fault that they believe in God-, and even in jail they helped the other political prisoners to keep their dignity.
BTW, Ioane, have you ever heared of father Dumitru Staniloae?
They changed them. In the 40s they killed the noble and good priests, Orthodox and Catholic and really tried to enforce the atheist point of view. And they were atheists, you know, it was part of their ideology and there were ridiculous opinions such as plane pilots saying that they went to the sky and found no God. Once they realized that they can not destroy religion, they infiltrated it. So yes, in Bulgaria, from the 50s, I think, many priests were State Security lapdogs. But it wasn't like that in the beginning. Many churches were destroyed and priests killed and the mantra was "religion is opium for the masses". But in the beginning the commies were internationalists and later they became nationalistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I was expecting this answer about Tanacu case. :laugh: Wonder what else could you say...Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Esp. that 2 weeks ago Cristian Mungiu's movie "Beyond hills" based on this case trimphed at Cannes film festival.
What happened at Tanacu is an isolated case and every community has its fools. For those who don't know what we're talking about: a nun was killed by a priest and 4 other nuns in a so called act of exorcism.
But what do you ( Ioan ) think about the fact that the priest was found guilty only for the lack of victim's freedom and a few days ago he was liberated? Justice is not religious....
You're not arguing over such important things with a Political Sciences Master holder like F1boat, are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
He/she , of all of us, has the best knowledge about such things, he knows it all. Well at least that's what he/she says. :s
So what exactly is that I didn't understand?!Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
With regret I have to say that you don't understand what you read and write.
BTW I'm not sure what you Matache market is, I personally learned history from books not from your neighboring market, nor from the soap operas.
The Securitate were the 2nd most atrocious secret police in Eastern European countries, only surpassed by the East Germans.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
People working in the Securitate were not closing their eyes to anything, every person over whom they've got an information has been interrogated and the means they were using were in many cases extreme.
Many thousands of people have been imprisoned for life and/or sentenced to hard work at the Danube / Black See channel, and you have think these brutal beasts were turning a blind eye to the information?! Tell that to all those poor political prisoners and to their families!
And those priests you try so hard to protect were the ones who spilled teh beans for many of those thousands who roted in prisons and in work camps!
Sure it is a fact, and the proof is where?!Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
How many of them turned into secret police informants and how many did something good. If you knew the facts you might be surprised. Though it seems that you are a bit misinformed. And BTW even though they have been proved to have been secret police informants those priest are still part of the church and still preaching to people about their gods teachings! Funny eh?!
I'm not into religion, as you might have already realized, hopefully, so I don't really care about any one cherry picked examples of yours. I'm sure you know it by know, given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful, though it might work well with the masses. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
I've read not so long ago a story about a priest who recently did something good for the village that he is assigned too and I say good to him that's a person who deserves praise, the problem is that he's one of the very few priests who do such things even though the Church has the means (read money) to help the people in need.
Sure, sure, can you please point us out those examples? Looking forward to it. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Though I know you're just trolling around here, so why don't you just get lost unless you have great knowledge about priests in communists countries between 1945 and 1989, in which case please do not keep it a secret.
ioan, cool down and remember that you are not in position to tell our members to get lost...thank you!
Really? In the future I’ll try to correct this….Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
“ Matache Macelaru’ ” is a famous market in Bucharest. Its name sounds so trivial to me that I often associate it with this city’s boorish. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I’m not trying to protect priests- why should I ?-. I’m only trying to see the the 2 sides of the coin.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I’m tired to explain you that the communist period in our country had different stages.
All of them were horrible but you can’t compare the Stalinist period with the 70-80’s years. The first is associated with the crimes you mentioned ( let’s not forget that the work at the Channel as a punishment for bourgeoisie was ceased in 1955 ) and also with a resistance movement. I’ll be glad if you can tell me the name of a priest who denounced in that period.
In the years of Ceausescu’s regime, Secu’ was still a fearful institution but however we felt somehow a liberalization. I dare say it was the period when Secu’ expanded its network of informers and priests were not exception. Let’s not forget either that Secu has its own role when Ceausescu was ousted.
.
Maybe you forgot that I’m aromanian and (too) many members of my community were political prisoners. I had relatives who spent about 17 years in those jails and it’s a miracle they survived.. One of my sources is their testimony. If they lied then I also lie you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Sorry but you shouldn’t be religious to have knowledge of a special man. You can’t ignore a personality just because he was a priest.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
BTW if the proportion is 1 to 1000 let’s be useful: I named one now it’s your turn to name 1000 delation priests to counterbalance my example. :laugh: With proofs of course….
First of all the orthodox church is not as rich as the catholic one. But how can you know such cases when you live abroad and your information is based on what you read from time to time about what’s happening here? Charity is not a thing to make fuss of. and a lot of people does it keeping it in anonymity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Huh? Don't you think you are getting a bit over excited there? 1 to 1000?!Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
Who? Me???!!!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
To quote you " given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful ". So it's you who choose the proportion. I picked up a case and I'm still waiting for your 1000....
I believe there is a God. I find it very fulfilling to live my life believing that there is.
It looks to me that you either do not understand what you post or you are just looking for a fight, which you wont get, I hope it's the later.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
It looks to me like she called your bluff and you have nowhere to go with it. It is a quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
[sarcasm]I change my vote! I am no longer an atheist.
Long live Frigga...[/sarcasm]
Why? If you didn't believe in God, would that mean that your family, possessions and feelings would be less fulfilling? I'm not sure I see the connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by 52Paddy
If I didn't believe in an afterlife, maybe. I can't answer that because I do believe in God. Anyway, the fulfilling part of my life is not solely bound up with family and possessions. Living my life by God's word, to the best of my ability, makes me feel good inside and also confident about a place in heaven. Having a relationship with God is like having a really solid friend continuously by your side and that is fulfilling.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
Well, I do respect your belief in God, but as an atheist I still find it hard to believe that there is some omnipresent-being who is constantly by your side. I guess I like the fact that I can be in control of my own life.Quote:
Originally Posted by 52Paddy
I'd probably end up getting stoned to death for apostasy if I were in a Muslim-led nation.
It's nice to see someone that is at peace with his faith. and this doesn't mean that "I see it how he sees it."Quote:
Originally Posted by 52Paddy
It would be so cool if we all followed the Golden Rule which simply states that we are to treat other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves.
*not to be confused with "whoever has the gold, makes the rules."
And we will be closer to all be at peace. :andrea:
Now I will switch my peace mode to: Spain will destroy Portugal today in the Eurocup. :D
:s mokin:
If it makes you feel good then so be it. But one could have a relationship with a imaginary friend that makes them feel good, but this wouldn't mean that the friend actually existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by 52Paddy
What I would like to know is - how do you feel that in the time it's taken me to write this post, your 'friend' has allowed hundreds of children throughout the world to die, either as part of his plan or because he chooses not to save them? Surely that makes him evil?
Attachment 2971
Sent from my iPhone
Well if you did ask him I am almost most certain that you wouldn't get a response.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
I wish I knew the answer, but I don't. Simple as. I don't profess to know everything about the mystery I believe in. There are so many things in the world that beckon the question "Why would God allow this to happen?". Although I can't authoritatively give a reason, I feel it must make sense along the line somewhere. Generally, I don't think about this - why? My faith is purely a personal 'venture', if you like. I get on with my bit and try to avoid thinking about massive issues. I'm not the person to ask. You know, I've questioned my faith over such issues, but can't help but believe. God's existence just makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow
This is not God's doing. It's man's doing. God gave us free will.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
If you believe this, of course. If you don't, that's no problem :)
Well if I were God I would probably destroy this Fucuped Planet and start over !!Quote:
Originally Posted by 52Paddy
There's no need to be God to do this....Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
sad but trueQuote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo
You don't understand squat either but you sure like to talk a lot, just like her. It must be a believer's sickness.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
So you think that anyone else but god could start new life after the Earth is destroyed? Interesting concept for a believer.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo