Please Mikko, something different this time!! (an open letter)

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Originally Posted by tommeke_B

No need to close topics like these I think, at the end of the season some member will still have the need to express their disappointment about his pace. :D

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But the essential plea in the title of the thread has been sufficiently answered. Yes there is something different - just when you think he can't appear less motivated he finds a new depths of non-competitiveness. It is clearly a matter of psychology. He is not treated as a No1 by Citroen who always have Couilles d'Ors waiting in the wings. He knows he will be second to Sordo on tarmac and he doesn't have the mental drive to take Ogier or Latvala on (even to set a fastest stage when he has nothing else at stake). Contrast JMLs performance - performed better than Petter and improved his tarmac driving last year with Ford. Steps into a team that has an established clear centre of attention (if supposedly joint No 1). So he gets his head down, learns to adapt to the car, gets podiums and fastest stages and then takes his chance when it comes. Citroen would be better going for Tidemand or Lappi -if they choose to stay in rallying.

It is strange he has so poor performance in Acropolis 2 consecutive years as he won it in 2009 (well Loeb wasn't there :) ), but was the rest competition so poor back then, or he has just lost any ambition to fight on tough Rallies :confused:

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Originally Posted by Mintexmemory

Contrast JMLs performance - performed better than Petter and improved his tarmac driving last year with Ford. Steps into a team that has an established clear centre of attention (if supposedly joint No 1). So he gets his head down, learns to adapt to the car, gets podiums and fastest stages and then takes his chance when it comes. Citroen would be better going for Tidemand or Lappi -if they choose to stay in rallying.

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I think you're overestimating Latvala there. Without Ogier's problem he would in all likelihood have been beaten again this weekend. He also trailed Petter most of last year IIRC despite having clear no.1 status.

Maybe this win will help with his confidence but if this year has proven one thing so far it is that the Ford wasn't as bad as most of us thought it was.

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Originally Posted by RS

I think you're overestimating Latvala there. Without Ogier's problem he would in all likelihood have been beaten again this weekend. He also trailed Petter most of last year IIRC despite having clear no.1 status.

Maybe this win will help with his confidence but if this year has proven one thing so far it is that the Ford wasn't as bad as most of us thought it was.

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I don't think I am over-estimating JML but that isn't the point in question. Are we talking about the Ford that always seems to break when pushed to competitive times (punctures notwithstanding).
As for JML trailing Petter World Rally Championship - Results shows 2 wins for Latvala, Petter only scoring one second place in 2012. 154 /124 points total - am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Mintexmemory

I don't think I am over-estimating JML but that isn't the point in question. Are we talking about the Ford that always seems to break when pushed to competitive times (punctures notwithstanding).
As for JML trailing Petter World Rally Championship - Results shows 2 wins for Latvala, Petter only scoring one second place in 2012. 154 /124 points total - am I missing something?

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You are missing the 1st half of the season when Solberg had more points, but still Latvala had 1 win there

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Originally Posted by Mintexmemory

I don't think I am over-estimating JML but that isn't the point in question. Are we talking about the Ford that always seems to break when pushed to competitive times (punctures notwithstanding).
As for JML trailing Petter World Rally Championship - Results shows 2 wins for Latvala, Petter only scoring one second place in 2012. 154 /124 points total - am I missing something?

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Yes, until the last few events when Petter went off the boil Latvala was behind in the standings. Sure the results are counted at the end of the year but I think a clear no.1 should have been ahead for most of the year.

Anyhow, I agree with your main point that if Citroen stick around they are going to need to improve their driver line up.

Please don't close my thread. Mikko might have a great future as a second driver for some new team where his perfect cruising skills are needed. Plus, he is statistically closing the point where he might win when all the others have problems.

Btw... completely off-topic, why wouldn't Lappi and Tidemand stay in rallying?

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Btw... completely off-topic, why wouldn't Lappi and Tidemand stay in rallying?

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He meant Citroën. ;)

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Originally Posted by EightGear

He meant Citroën. ;)

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:up: Which is why I put the hyphen in my last sentence

Fear not AFF, your thread is safe and can easily be converted to Rallycross discussions at some time in the future. (I was only joking in my original post, a thread doesn't get closed unless there is no activity for a couple of years or postings become abusive.)

I can't see mikko as the first driver and petter can't have a seat in WRC.

I would rather see Hanninen in this seat than Hirvonen. I genuinely feel that given a bit of time and the opportunities of being a full works driver he would be able to offer some more inspired performances.

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Originally Posted by RS

I would rather see Hanninen in this seat than Hirvonen. I genuinely feel that given a bit of time and the opportunities of being a full works driver he would be able to offer some more inspired performances.

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I agree with u!Maybe will drive i20 next year?!We lost him suddenly.

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Originally Posted by RS

I would rather see Hanninen in this seat than Hirvonen. I genuinely feel that given a bit of time and the opportunities of being a full works driver he would be able to offer some more inspired performances.

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Hanninen isn´t fast enough.

Whatever you say, we need those famous names like Mikko (maybe best as #2 driver in team) and Petter back in WRC because what WRC needs isn´t new format only as big competition as possible. That´s why we need drivers capapble of winning stages and podiumplaces. The more the better.

I guess as a swede that both PG and Tidemand are faster than Hanninen in 9 out of ten rallies... ;)

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

I guess as a swede that both PG and Tidemand are faster than Hanninen in 9 out of ten rallies... ;)

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I guess by adding the wink you mean that you don't even believe that yourself right?

You say that we need famous names like Mikko to offer "big competition" but Mikko doesn't seem to be doing the business right now does he?

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I guess as a swede that both PG and Tidemand are faster than Hanninen in 9 out of ten rallies... ;)

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I don't think PG is faster but Tidemand is for sure!

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Originally Posted by Vaggelis27

I don't think PG is faster but Tidemand is for sure!

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Just because he was fast in Sweden? Come on...

Well, I insist they both are faster than Hanninen. Even if I wasn´t a swede. Better so? It will be proven in the future.

He showed the speed that he has in acropolis rally and in portugal.

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Originally Posted by Vaggelis27

He showed the speed that he has in acropolis rally and in portugal.

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Yes, in a Fiesta R2....

Tidemand has a lot of potential, but to say he is faster than Hanninen at this moment is impossible because you can't compare them at all.

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Originally Posted by EightGear

He meant Citroën. ;)

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My mistake :)

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Please don't close my thread. Mikko might have a great future as a second driver for some new team where his perfect cruising skills are needed. Plus, he is statistically closing the point where he might win when all the others have problems.

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I'm amazed how folks here didn't take this sadness from my post. Yes, every word I wrote is true but how sad is it indeed. After Acropolis it hit how deep WRC swim right now. Even though we wouldn't have Ogier winning every event, WRC would still suck!! Why? Because we don't have decent drivers anymore ( apart from Ogier and maybe Latvala.). WRC does not have any credibility left :mark:

And btw, I have to disagree with RS. Hänninen isn't a rainmaker. He simply just don't have what it takes.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

I'm amazed how folks here didn't take this sadness from my post. Yes, every word I wrote is true but how sad is it indeed. After Acropolis it hit how deep WRC swim right now. Even though we wouldn't have Ogier winning every event, WRC would still suck!! Why? Because we don't have decent drivers anymore ( apart from Ogier and maybe Latvala.). WRC does not have any credibility left :mark:
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very true.

Well, in the previous 5 years, you can hardly tell that there were many opportunities for young talented drivers... The condition of the WRC (especially from 2008 to 2011) was not really encouraging for the young talented driver. Not even talking about the economical situation... ;) From the "top" drivers we see in the WRC now, how many have made it without personal (like family) sponsorship? From the last years, I could say Loeb, Ogier and Neuville. For the rest? Drivers like Ostberg, Novikov and Mikkelsen are where they are (partly) because of the wealth of their families. Which does not mean that they don't deserve to be where they are, but for sure it helped them...

WRC has made itself so expensive that even the manufacturers have hard time running the teams. Prodrive had a noble thought of selling Minis for privateers but who has money to purchase them??

I've said it myself that it is useless to squeeze your cheeks when you've already crapped your pants BUT, WRC had an opprotunity to sweep the table for once and give everyone a chance to be equal, for at least a short period of time. WRC had the chance to move to S2000 machinery. Manufacturers were interested, heck, even Dacia build a prototype. But did they choose it? Nooo. We might have had privateers there in top three in rallyes they favor, we might have had young talnets by dozens. Fcuk, we might have had GOOD rallying.

To keep this in the topic, the sad thing is that Mikko doesn't seem to have a chance to challenge even team Ford, which should level -B drivers :mark:

I predict that Mikko will be in either of the Rallycross series next year, hopefully the ERX not the parking lot with jumps version favoured by the global (usa) version.

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Originally Posted by MJW

I predict that Mikko will be in either of the Rallycross series next year, hopefully the ERX not the parking lot with jumps version favoured by the global (usa) version.

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He's lacking the fight to do well in rallycross I believe.

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Originally Posted by TyPat107

He's lacking the fight to do well in rallycross I believe.

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Ok, I haven't said anything up to now, but how many north europeans have fitted into PSA group? Marcus but that was a long time ago. Richard Burns snd Colin McRae didnt 'fit in'. If you are early in a rally week, just take s look at recce, Mikko is not in convoy with the other Citroen guys, he doesnt eat at the same time as the others. I think Mikko doesnt want to be there anymore. And I do think that a rallycross future would be good. A two car Citroen team with Petter would be good, give the Hansen Team a challenge.

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Originally Posted by MJW

Ok, I haven't said anything up to now, but how many north europeans have fitted into PSA group? Marcus but that was a long time ago. Richard Burns snd Colin McRae didnt 'fit in'. If you are early in a rally week, just take s look at recce, Mikko is not in convoy with the other Citroen guys, he doesnt eat at the same time as the others. I think Mikko doesnt want to be there anymore. And I do think that a rallycross future would be good. A two car Citroen team with Petter would be good, give the Hansen Team a challenge.

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I don't understand anything from this post... :D North-European drivers at PSA were Gronholm, Rovanpera, Radstrom and Hirvonen. I don't think anyone has been disadvantaged from the team... Also what's the connection between "North Europeans have never fitted into PSA group" and Burns and McRae (who are obviously not North-European)? About Mikko/RECCE... In recce Loeb/Ogier(/Sordo?) are known of always being first drivers on the first stage and they keep being first on the stages throughout the whole recce days... Mikko was somewhere in the middle/back already when he was driving at Ford. Does it mean because you change team, that you have to change all your habits? Then you could say: "they want Mikko to organize his recce-day different than how he was used to do it before." I think you just want to see chauvinism or whatever, even if there is nothing...

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Originally Posted by tommeke_B

I don't understand anything from this post... :D North-European drivers at PSA were Gronholm, Rovanpera, Radstrom and Hirvonen. I don't think anyone has been disadvantaged from the team... Also what's the connection between "North Europeans have never fitted into PSA group" and Burns and McRae (who are obviously not North-European)? About Mikko/RECCE... In recce Loeb/Ogier(/Sordo?) are known of always being first drivers on the first stage and they keep being first on the stages throughout the whole recce days... Mikko was somewhere in the middle/back already when he was driving at Ford. Does it mean because you change team, that you have to change all your habits? Then you could say: "they want Mikko to organize his recce-day different than how he was used to do it before." I think you just want to see chauvinism or whatever, even if there is nothing...

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Just to aid the debate - Brits, the Irish, North Germans, Nederlanders, Belgians and French, north of Le Midi are classed as Northern Europeans - not just Scandinavians

South France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, South Germany are Southern Europeans - Austria isn't anything!

However PSA Group actually counts as a Northern European concern, so while I understand MJW's point I feel the reason some drivers fit in and others don't is much simpler. To mis-quote S L Jackson in Pulp Fiction - "Do you Speak French, MF". I dont' think Mikko is fitting in for all sorts of other complex issues, the absent No1 being the biggest.

But to answer the question you put Tom, yes Mikko should have changed, the dynamic being you do what the successful part of the union wants. Mikko was joining the successful team and therefore needs to fit in with them, not vice versa. If they are used to seeing their guys first on the stage, then not doing that creates the 'not a team member' message and he will then be regarded in that way!

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

And btw, I have to disagree with RS. Hänninen isn't a rainmaker. He simply just don't have what it takes.

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He is probably the driver who has had the least chances who deserves one.

I maintain that if he had the luck/backing Hirvonen has had over the years he would have done a better job.

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Originally Posted by RS

I maintain that if he had the luck/backing Hirvonen has had over the years he would have done a better job.

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Did he ever had bad luck that cost him the title? From what I remember in the last 5-6 years in most rallies he was just driving to finish as high as he could without risking much and fight for victory. He rarely tried to challenge Seb.
And for backing he had enough from MW, he hold onto him for a lot of seasons as No1.

@Makinen_fan: read again...

tha Tom, forgive my latest point, RS comments I thought targeted Mikko. read it too quickly

PS i cant the edit button to delete the post. help!

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Originally Posted by Mintexmemory

Just to aid the debate - Brits, the Irish, North Germans, Nederlanders, Belgians and French, north of Le Midi are classed as Northern Europeans - not just Scandinavians

South France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, South Germany are Southern Europeans - Austria isn't anything!

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sorry but that looks like your very personal fragmantation of europe....acc. this Loeb is from northern europe, Gassner southern....Aigner asian or what???

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Originally Posted by Adler

sorry but that looks like your very personal fragmantation of europe....acc. this Loeb is from northern europe, Gassner southern....Aigner asian or what???

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I think Alsace-Lorraine still qualifies in most historical descriptions as Northern Europe. Given that Genghis Khan's empire included albeit briefly Austria, then yes Asia for Aigner seems good to me! ;)

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Originally Posted by Mintexmemory

I think Alsace-Lorraine still qualifies in most historical descriptions as Northern Europe. Given that Genghis Khan's empire included albeit briefly Austria, then yes Asia for Aigner seems good to me! ;)

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ok, so parts of england belongs to rome ;)

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Originally Posted by Adler

ok, so parts of england belongs to rome ;)

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All of England, actually! They had the good sense to build a wall to keep the Scots out.
"But what have the Romans ever done for us?" (Or Mikko, just to wrench this back on thread)

Well now, that was different!!!

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Originally Posted by Adler

sorry but that looks like your very personal fragmantation of europe....acc. this Loeb is from northern europe, Gassner southern....Aigner asian or what???

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Hehe, according to common jokes about Prague people and their understanding of surrounding world You are really partly in Asia (together with all Moravia, Slovakia, Hungary) :D I personally got used to these jokes and when I leave Prague to a place of my origin (some 150 km to the East) I say I'm going to the Near East while when I go to Barum rally for example I say I'm going to the Far East :D