Racism

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

What you described there is something that pretty much every middle class man has to go through their life, and trust me I've seen much, much worse, not talking here about me but an observation of an average middle class man back home. You've got it WAY better, trust me. So, when you talk about discrimination against your sex and age, that's how your society is structured and almost everyone, black or white or brown or yellow, has to go through this.

But answer me this, have you ever been racially discriminated against or how often have you seen white folks getting racially discriminated against? While I've seen plenty of guys getting shortchanged only because of the color of their skin.

I agree that there are some idiots who cry "Racism!" at the drop of the hat, but there are plenty others that don't, and it's wrong to generalize everyone in the same pool, when unknown to you they might have gone through something totally legit. Add also to the fact that racial discrimination during childhood can scar a person mentally in a bad way, and hence they can become oversensitive to these things.

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The point I was trying to make is that we can all be sensitive about discrimination and find it un every walk of life. Just because discrimination is endemic in a culture does not make it right and a person that is discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation, their physical ability, their sex or any other aspect apart from their ability is wrong in my opinion.

Therefore, I can consider myself to be non-discriminatory because I believe that all types of discrimination are wrong, and not just the ones that suit my view point. Others may disagree and deem that a white middle class man can be discriminated against because he deserves it or whatever. When we go down the road of what type of descrimination is fair, then we introduce resentment and mistrust. We are also then incapable of making a unbiased decision on how to deal with descrimination. How can we say that someone referring to a slave is wrong but someone being denied work because of their ethnicity is right? Yet on this forum, people have expressed outrage at someone making a rascist comment, claiming long term damage to people etc but shrug off as acceptable denial of work of middle class men which could lead to a life of povery and social injustice.

On our sliding scale of acceptability, which is worse. Someone making a racist joke or someone not being allowed to work?

Believe it or not, I am not making the case here for White, Middle class, employed, able bodied men. I think we have broader shoulders and by and large, can get on with our lives without standing on a soap box. BUT, perhaps some other groups could be as pragmatic and not get so hot under the collar about infrequant instances or one-offs that in the great scheme of things, DONT REALLY MATTER!!!

There are many serious issues and ramifications of discrimination in this world. There are many, many more minor issues that deflect away from the focus that should be put on the great injustices.

All I am saying is that if we acknowledge discrimination exsists virtually everywhere, instead of cherry picking the bits that suit our view, then we can have a much more grown up discussion and action plan about what is serious and what is merely unpleasant.

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Originally Posted by skc

The point I was trying to make is that we can all be sensitive about discrimination and find it un every walk of life. Just because discrimination is endemic in a culture does not make it right and a person that is discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation, their physical ability, their sex or any other aspect apart from their ability is wrong in my opinion.

Therefore, I can consider myself to be non-discriminatory because I believe that all types of discrimination are wrong, and not just the ones that suit my view point. Others may disagree and deem that a white middle class man can be discriminated against because he deserves it or whatever. When we go down the road of what type of descrimination is fair, then we introduce resentment and mistrust. We are also then incapable of making a unbiased decision on how to deal with descrimination. How can we say that someone referring to a slave is wrong but someone being denied work because of their ethnicity is right? Yet on this forum, people have expressed outrage at someone making a rascist comment, claiming long term damage to people etc but shrug off as acceptable denial of work of middle class men which could lead to a life of povery and social injustice.

On our sliding scale of acceptability, which is worse. Someone making a racist joke or someone not being allowed to work?

Believe it or not, I am not making the case here for White, Middle class, employed, able bodied men. I think we have broader shoulders and by and large, can get on with our lives without standing on a soap box. BUT, perhaps some other groups could be as pragmatic and not get so hot under the collar about infrequant instances or one-offs that in the great scheme of things, DONT REALLY MATTER!!!

There are many serious issues and ramifications of discrimination in this world. There are many, many more minor issues that deflect away from the focus that should be put on the great injustices.

All I am saying is that if we acknowledge discrimination exsists virtually everywhere, instead of cherry picking the bits that suit our view, then we can have a much more grown up discussion and action plan about what is serious and what is merely unpleasant.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly that ANY type of discrimination is just wrong. In fact, I have in my life never approved of any discrimination against any race, caste or creed. It's very unacceptable to me when a group of black rappers talk about white folks badly, generalizing them, without understanding that the innocent white folks today have nothing to do with whatever happened to the black folks decades or centuries ago. Crying racism over that stuff today and blaming the white folks is just wrong.

This thread was never started with a serious POV, only displaying my shock at hearing something like that in this day and age, and that some people still have views like these, because there's always some degree of truth behind every joke. And that "joke" some people might find funny, but it isn't funny to me. I never said a certain type of discrimination was more wrong than others. Discrimination as a whole is just WRONG.

And like I said before, that yes, life is hard for a middle class man, as you said in the UK, and in the US too during this recession, but it's even more so in India as I have witnessed first hand. At least you have a minimum wage. Imagine people working for peanuts, and then getting denied for work because someone less skilled but from a lower caste quota got their job because of this silly rule from the government. A kid with a much lesser score in the entrance exam gets to go to medical college, just because he belongs to a scheduled caste or scheduled tribe of India compared to someone who actually worked his ass off and gets 80%, but that's not enough because he's normal. This type of discrimination exists everywhere, and frankly doesn't surprise me because I'm used to it.

People can't do anything about these, so they learn to live with it. Racial discrimination however is different, because now it relates to appearance, and it's similar to a fat kid going through childhood, he develops a pretty strong inferiority complex that remains with him throughout his life. Probably racism based on physical appearance or skin color, especially in this world obsessed with beauty and superficial outside appearance, has a similar effect on people, which makes them more sensitive and it doesn't take much to provoke them. Not saying what is more or less important, I'm just illustrating the differences.

I am saddened (but not surprised) to hear your experience with Indian employment discrimination.

Thank you for this great insight and your views on rascism and discrimination. Trully thought provoking and eloquently made.

:up:

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Now see, what you call a fact and easily brand as nothing but overreaction is something more complex. It's easy to pass judgment when you haven't actually experienced it. You would have no idea unless you've actually lived your whole life as a minority or gone through discrimination on a daily basis, to understand why people's sensitivity gets molded this way and why they react in a certain manner.

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In the U.S. (I am not speaking of other countries) supposed leaders, and it only takes one person, use/cling to past transgressions- real or otherwise- to foment hatred, for reason of power.

The resulting -usually- ethnic hatred, thrives on the us verses them politic.

Those in a community that do not subscribe to such hate based politics often suffer greatly for not doing so.
An American Indian gentleman I once gave a ride to, when asked why in the U.S. Indian - non-indian relations seem to never improve, told me it was because "leaders" preach hatred and separation.
He was hitching back to Montana as there was no longer work in Minn., but had originally left after he had two sisters and a brother killed, in his words "for not being Indian enough."

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

In the U.S. (I am not speaking of other countries) supposed leaders, and it only takes one person, use/cling to past transgressions- real or otherwise- to foment hatred, for reason of power.

The resulting -usually- ethnic hatred, thrives on the us verses them politic.

Those in a community that do not subscribe to such hate based politics often suffer greatly for not doing so.
An American Indian gentleman I once gave a ride to, when asked why in the U.S. Indian - non-indian relations seem to never improve, told me it was because "leaders" preach hatred and separation.
He was hitching back to Montana as there was no longer work in Minn., but had originally left after he had two sisters and a brother killed, in his words "for not being Indian enough."

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Well, that's just sad...nothing else to say.

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Originally Posted by skc

I am saddened (but not surprised) to hear your experience with Indian employment discrimination.

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There was an incident in the news of a guy committing suicide. He was working for 5 years in some IT company doing data entry work, relatively menial, but he earned only about 2500 rupees per month, which is roughly $55 per month! Add to this, he was married and had 2 kids. No job security, nothing. A family of four supported by ONLY $55 per month! His wife worked as a maid, and they too are paid peanuts I guess, since there's no minimum wage. If I remember correctly, he also used to travel 1 hour every day to work.

Well, so he fell sick and the company fired him for not showing up to work for a week and hired someone from a scheduled caste/tribe as they were from a reserved quota. I guess the pressure of feeding his family was too much and he ended it. Terrible. All kinds of struggles, just because of a stupid government rule.

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Originally Posted by skc

Thank you for this great insight and your views on rascism and discrimination. Trully thought provoking and eloquently made.

:up:

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Thank you to you too for the sane discussion. :) :up:

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Terrible. All kinds of struggles, just because of a stupid government rule.

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How is it the Government's fault?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

How is it the Government's fault?

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Because the government put the rule in place. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was even some tax rebate offered for private companies that hired those from scheduled caste/tribes. Plus they have seats secured in medical schools, engineering colleges etc. as part of a quota, also jobs in government sectors and banks. There were plenty of strikes/demonstrations against this.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

How is it the Government's fault?

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I'm surprised. Don't you think everything is the Government's fault?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

X...the sad reality of it is, Europeans used to ridicule the Americans for their views on blacks and their place in America. Yet, most of the openly rude racism is in Europe....towards blacks, Indians, Arabs, Turks, Gypsy's or Jews. Not to say everyone in Europe is racist, but racism and bigotry is alive in well everywhere in the civilized world. The thing is, sometimes it is institutionalized and not what it appears to be.....

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Mark, we agree on this. There was a post just before yours about the gentleman from India with the Romanian wife. His showed the Nazi element involved in soccer. This permeates Europe. Very sad. They are call Ulta's or Ultra's. Big clubs, mostly mainland Europe have these fringe groups with no interest in soccer. However, they have a huge interest in racism.

There was a time in English Football when a black player had to endure vicious taunts not only from rival supporters but from his own club fans. This was twenty years ago and maybe some of our British fans can enlighten me as to the situation now. It does seem better. Bad to see these hard right groups emerging with a combined IQ of possibly 75 but led by those with substantially more. Sheep.