Lars Vilks gets the muslim free speech treatment

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Originally Posted by Rollo

May I remind you that you live in a country which had as a stated policy, the denial of all Jewish peoples the right to own property until 1917. [url]


http://www.jchelsinki.fi/index.php?o...d=35:community

No, historically until 1917 which was between the Second and Third Aliyahs, Finland was part of the reasons why Jews returned to Israel.
Furthermore, by siding with the Germans in WW2 Finland also actually CAUSED Jews to return to Israel.

Sorry, but if you want to play that card, then you must admit that your country was complicit in the most horrible evils of the 20th Century.

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So? There was no Finland until 1917, according to the logic some use about Palestine here. Besides, we're talking about 2010 and the 21st century, not 1917 or 1947 or the 20th century. Jews have been moving to Israel until recently, and it still continues, as far as I know.

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Where else do you suggest that they should have gone? Your country along with the rest of the Eastern Europe didn't help the situation at all. Of course they were going to flee to Israel and the land of opportunity, the USA.

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I'd recommend the US then. Like I said, less rockets and rocks launched at them there. Even in Europe there'd be less rockets and rocks.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

You were condemning Israel's religion bases immigration policies. Just wondering if you were consistent on that point.

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I don't know if Iran has religion based immigration policies. Maybe they don't, maybe they do.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

May I remind you that you live in a country which had as a stated policy, the denial of all Jewish peoples the right to own property until 1917.



http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/S...locaust_Record

No, historically until 1917 which was between the Second and Third Aliyahs, Finland was part of the reasons why Jews returned to Israel.
Furthermore, by siding with the Germans in WW2 Finland also actually CAUSED Jews to return to Israel.

Sorry, but if you want to play that card, then you must admit that your country was complicit in the most horrible evils of the 20th Century.

Where else do you suggest that they should have gone? Your country along with the rest of the Eastern Europe didn't help the situation at all. Of course they were going to flee to Israel and the land of opportunity, the USA.

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At least there was no reason for Finnish Jews to emigrate:

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/S...st_Record[

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"When the Finns fought together with the Germans, the latter did not touch the Jews who served in the Finnish army. There was an unwritten agreement about that. The Germans knew that in the Scandinavian countries, when one is a citizen, one belongs. The Finns treated the Jews who were of their nationality equally during the war. The Jewish soldiers found themselves in a position where they were fighting on the side of Germany, even if they did not fight together with the Germans. A film titled David documents the experiences of these soldiers.8 The refugees, however, were unsafe; this was even worse if one was a Russian POW.

"It seems that in the latter half of 1942, the Germans began insisting that Finnish Jews be handed over to them. The Finns, in order not to do so, replied that they would raise the matter in parliament, which they did not convene for a few months.

"These were bloody wars. At the time Finland had a population of slightly over four million, and as mentioned, ninety thousand of its soldiers were killed. Jews served in all these wars. On a personal note, my father fought on the Finnish side, against my husband's father, who was from Leningrad."

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Originally Posted by Eki

I'd recommend the US then. Like I said, less rockets and rocks launched at them there. Even in Europe there'd be less rockets and rocks.

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Rocks and Rockets being fired at you aren't the only reasons for choosing where to reside. In the US fruit and vegetables taste way worse than here. Also, since so much land is privately owned you are pretty much confined to parks when wheeling, mountain biking or camping. Here most of the land is public so one can pretty much go anywhere and explore.

The US does have its own merits though.

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At least there was no reason for Finnish Jews to emigrate

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Having to fight with an army that has a mission to exterminate your brothers and sisters seems justifyable enough for me. Where were finnish human rights groups when Finland decided to help the Nazis?

I think that the main reason why Finns before 1917 were reluctant to let Jews own property in Finland was not because they were Jews, but because they were Russian and Polish, namely former soldiers of the Russian military. Western Jews seem to have been OK:

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/S...locaust_Record

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"The first Jews came to Finland during the nineteenth century. One often hears that these were so-called cantonists, young Jewish boys forcefully conscripted to military service at an early age and, starting when they were eighteen, made to serve twenty-five years in the army. These boys had to be stripped of their religious and national identity. That only pertains, however, to a few of the early Finnish Jews. Most were soldiers, drafted during the reign of Tsar Nikolai I, who were based in Finland and in 1858, as discharged soldiers, were allowed to stay in Finland. They were known as ‘Nikolai's soldiers.'

"In 1917, the Finnish parliament declared independence. Lenin and his government, who by then were in power in the Soviet Union, announced their agreement. Thus on 6 December 1917, the Republic of Finland was born. One of the first things the Finnish parliament decided was to give the Jews citizenship. It was the penultimate country in Europe-before Romania-to do so. The Finns claim they were not independent before, and hence could not have given the Jews citizenship. The truth is rather different. Already in the nineteenth century, there were bitter debates on the issue and hard-line positions against granting the Jews citizenship. Opponents said they did not want Polish or Russian Jews but would accept Western ones.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Where were finnish human rights groups when Finland decided to help the Nazis?

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Mostly in the fronts fighting the Soviets, like other Finnish citizens were (including Finnish Jews), I'd guess. Politically active communists were in prison or underground, though.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I think that the main reason why Finns before 1917 were reluctant to let Jews own property in Finland was not because they were Jews, but because they were Russian and Polish, namely former soldiers of the Russian military. Western Jews seem to have been OK:

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/S...locaust_Record

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Where does it say western jews had the right to own property ?

BTW arabs are permitted to own property in Israel (as are jews) although there are plenty of reasons for being reluctant (http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articl...870198,00.html) on the part of legislators.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Where does it say western jews had the right to own property ?

BTW arabs are permitted to own property in Israel (as are jews) although there are plenty of reasons for being reluctant (http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articl...870198,00.html) on the part of legislators.

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Here it says that even the opponents of granting the Jews citizenship would have accepted Western Jews to become citizens. I guess only citizens were allowed to own property in Finland:

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Already in the nineteenth century, there were bitter debates on the issue and hard-line positions against granting the Jews citizenship. Opponents said they did not want Polish or Russian Jews but would accept Western ones.

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Can non-citizen Arabs own property in Israel?

There have recently been debates here on should Russians be allowed to own land and property in Finland like they are now. There was a documentary on how Russian individuals have bought land and property near Finnish military, naval and air force bases. Some believe they are used for spying.

Thanks for the link, Rani. Algazi and Snitz spoke wise words. Wish there were more people like them.

What many people forget is that most, if not all western countries, would not allow immigration of Jewish refugees from Nazism, or other persecution prior to and during WW2.
Sadly that included Canada who actually turned away a ship full of refugees.
It even applied after the war when the horrors of the concentration camps became known.
The Western democracies have nothing to be proud of.
Israel was their only hope and efforts were made to stop even that.