Hybrids and why they may the be wrong idea...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dylan H

Yes there are plenty of problems with hydrogen, and I don't think its definitely the future. I certainly don't think it is the ONLY future, and I think for decades we will have a wide choice of power units, from fully electric to fuel cell, petrol, Diesel and hybrids. Things will change and I think its far too early to write off petrol and Diesel for a long while. One thing is clear though, unless you live in a city state or a tiny country like Israel electric cars won't be the dominant type.

---

I will quibble with you a bit on this. I think it HAS to be the best bet for the future outside of continued use of petrol and diesel. Unless someone has a new leap forward in batteries (and god knows people have spent billions trying), the electric will not make it. That doesn't leave many options if the car truly will be a car. The Hybrid is a nice idea that just is a fancy gasoline powered solution that actually doesn't save enough money in fuel savings to make up for its extra costs. Never mind on the price of the titanium and exotic metals AND the costs involved in handling the wore out battery packs. The hybrid isn't an electric car, but it works AS a car, so people are given the false hope that this is the way forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I will quibble with you a bit on this. I think it HAS to be the best bet for the future outside of continued use of petrol and diesel. Unless someone has a new leap forward in batteries (and god knows people have spent billions trying), the electric will not make it. That doesn't leave many options if the car truly will be a car. The Hybrid is a nice idea that just is a fancy gasoline powered solution that actually doesn't save enough money in fuel savings to make up for its extra costs. Never mind on the price of the titanium and exotic metals AND the costs involved in handling the wore out battery packs. The hybrid isn't an electric car, but it works AS a car, so people are given the false hope that this is the way forward.

---

Electric cars DO make sense if you're going to use it for short trips round the city or for commuting, just as you would currently use a Smart. On the European continent there has been a long history of people driving tiny petrol engined two seat cars around town, cars that would make a Smart look like a truck and have performance not much better than a current electric car. It would not be difficult to market electric cars at those users who don't expect any more from their cars.

What you are talking about is a replacement for the 'do-anything' vehicle, something you could trundle to work and the shops in yet is capable of crossing the country in comfort if need be. There, I agree electric isn't the answer but smart hybrid solutions could have a role there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dylan H

Electric cars DO make sense if you're going to use it for short trips round the city or for commuting, just as you would currently use a Smart. On the European continent there has been a long history of people driving tiny petrol engined two seat cars around town, cars that would make a Smart look like a truck and have performance not much better than a current electric car. It would not be difficult to market electric cars at those users who don't expect any more from their cars.

What you are talking about is a replacement for the 'do-anything' vehicle, something you could trundle to work and the shops in yet is capable of crossing the country in comfort if need be. There, I agree electric isn't the answer but smart hybrid solutions could have a role there.

---

I suppose in city applications, there could be uses for the electric, but again, in a climate that is temperate and there are locations to keep the car on charge.

The do-anything vehicle is the staple of the car market. For the price of a car, you HAVE to use it for more than casual use. If a real car costs a minimum of 12000 dollars new, then where is the pricepoint for an electric car that has no range and isn't useful every day in most of the climatic zones in the western world? The market finds the fault with technology that doesn't work and either it is made to work at a price that makes sense, or it is bypassed. The electric car has been bypassed....

lol lets just ignore all the downsides of hydrogen. Tbh I can't be bothered with this.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

lol lets just ignore all the downsides of hydrogen. Tbh I can't be bothered with this.....

---

I believe we've addressed the ones you've raised already without a counterargument from you.

I'm deeply interested in this subject Daniel, you clearly are too, why not list all those downsides of hydrogen and also address the downsides of electric cars which have been raised too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Not a small problem you have to admit and one that affects hydrogen from the time it's produced to the time it's used in the fuel cell or burnt. Also remember that hydrogen doesn't have the lubricating properties of fuel so that opens a whole can of worms with hydrogen combustion.

I realise electric cars have their problems but as I said if you make the batteries standard/modular and quick to swap out then this makes the range argument a lot less of a problem.

Sure batteries have their problems in the cold but I'll wager that if better insulated and perhaps heated slightly that this would help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Not a small problem you have to admit and one that affects hydrogen from the time it's produced to the time it's used in the fuel cell or burnt. Also remember that hydrogen doesn't have the lubricating properties of fuel so that opens a whole can of worms with hydrogen combustion..

---

Ceramic coatings and different alloys are being used in this research right now. I figure this is a solvable issue. If not, hydrogen fuel cells powering electric motors will be more in line with your feelings on electrics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

I realise electric cars have their problems but as I said if you make the batteries standard/modular and quick to swap out then this makes the range argument a lot less of a problem.

Sure batteries have their problems in the cold but I'll wager that if better insulated and perhaps heated slightly that this would help.

---

Batteries if heated slightly would have to get the power from where? Once the car is rolling, the vehicle is in cold soak mode when it is -5 C, and THAT is a mile temp in the winter for all of Canada almost not to mention a good chunk of the US and Europe. You still have to siphon off power from that battery to keep the windows unfrosted, the radio on and HEAT for the people inside. Sorry, you solve all that, then you can talk to me about battery swapping stations. Batteries are large...how much infrastructure on street corners will that take and who will pay for it? Chargers all over the city to park the car at to charge up? Who pays? the consumer for sure, but will it be costly?

There is a lot of things to figure out no matter whether we go electric or hydgrogen for sure, but for Dylan and I guess we made up our mind on this one. I have used too many things that don't take to cold well that fail, and batteries are at the top of the list.

You're absolutely correct Mark. I'd be surprised if a battery-powered vehicle would be able to travel more than a few miles in -20 deg. temps, pushing through snow-covered roads :s
Nope, battery technology simply is not a viable option in our climate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

You're absolutely correct Mark. I'd be surprised if a battery-powered vehicle would be able to travel more than a few miles in -20 deg. temps, pushing through snow-covered roads :s
Nope, battery technology simply is not a viable option in our climate.

---

Schmenke, That is what I find frustrating when Daniel or someone else tells me how the electric car is doable, and points to something like the Tesla or some little car somewhere and I laugh. We do not live in a unique climate, most of the northern US, Russia, Western Europe all have weather conditions that can be like ours. It is most of the car buying world as it stands....and it is totally too hostile for part of the year to battery powered anything....

Electric cars looked to be the way to go in 1901 when the car was a rich man's toy...but Henry Ford and others showed just how useful the car would be to the middle class, and THAT is why we have the IC engine...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Schmenke, That is what I find frustrating when Daniel or someone else tells me how the electric car is doable, and points to something like the Tesla or some little car somewhere and I laugh. We do not live in a unique climate, most of the northern US, Russia, Western Europe all have weather conditions that can be like ours. It is most of the car buying world as it stands....and it is totally too hostile for part of the year to battery powered anything....

Electric cars looked to be the way to go in 1901 when the car was a rich man's toy...but Henry Ford and others showed just how useful the car would be to the middle class, and THAT is why we have the IC engine...

---

The thing is just as research is going into hydrogen there is research going into what benefits carbon nanotubes can give to batteries so don't write batteries off just yet.