It was Bernie who got the Canadian Grand Prix removed from the '09 schedule, not the North American fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
You are talking about the most powerful and modern open wheel cars that race in North America, right?
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It was Bernie who got the Canadian Grand Prix removed from the '09 schedule, not the North American fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
You are talking about the most powerful and modern open wheel cars that race in North America, right?
Not a matter of hoping something dies, CCWS77. Matter of skepticism based on past history.
And road and street courses are just plain slower than ovals. A few miles an hour here or there on those courses makes little difference, IMO. 50-mile-an-hour hairpins are 50-mile-an-hour hairpins. Maybe your stopwatch tells you 48 or 53. Big deal. I go that fast on my way to work.
And four seconds slower on one of those courses is just about one sip of cold beer.
You're of course missing the real point, which is that the vast majority of open-wheel fans want 1 series and all the good stuff that comes along with it like full 22-28 car grids, guaranteed 18-20 races per season, big at track attendance, good tv numbers, sponsors that can focus on one series, variety of tracks from ovals to streets, all the best drivers, etc. If all you've got in your bag is that we should have 2 series again because the current one is not as technologically ahead as you'd like, then I think you've got a very weak argument. Even F1 is scaling back technology, and CC was nowhere near F1 so I guess they should have thrown in the towel too. Another 8-10 years of a split series (both spec btw) because one (currently) has an older chassis, would be a sad situation indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
So in other words all four of the series you mentioned aren't good enough for you, but this "GreenPrix" is? Why does it matter if they race in the U.S. or not? Strictly road/street formula racing is not going to work in the U.S. The IRL will always be superior because Americans like AMERICAN Open Wheel, not the European version. If you like European Open Wheel more, watch one of those four series you think is so much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Just some friendly advice. I don't want you to get your hopes up about this GreenPrix because there's no way it survives. (At least if it tries to be bigger than it's vintage racing fate)
You'd think Americans would've learned this by now after TWO bankruptcies by the amigos trying to do the same thing.
Well, yes and no. You're lucky the IRL agreed to take it on this year to get the "merger" done. If it doesn't fit in the IRL's schedule from here on out it can hardly be called the IRL's fault. They agree to run a race there this year, and to negotiate future contracts. That's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Skepticism is fine. I have no idea what will happen either. There is more then skepticism here. There is the vibe that anything that might possibly compete with the IRL is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
An established buisness needs to continually defend itself against competitors. That is totally different then having one organization split apart into a damaging civil war. If you (or Tony George!) are basing the success of the IRL on the idea that there is a monopoly of only 1 series then clearly you have failed to yet escape from the damaging mindset of the split. Scorched earth for anything that is not under the control of Indianapolis!Quote:
Originally Posted by nickfalzone
Wow you guys are infuriating. So the same crowd that wants to maximize the number of races they get to see in the US and cares little for keeping Surfers has no problem telling others to go take a hike all over the globe. hypocrytesQuote:
Originally Posted by -Helix-
It's pretty damn obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Look at how successful the last 13 years of American open wheel racing was when they had two series competing for the same fans.
Not very successful.
CCWS77:
1. What ug said.
2. Where do you want control of it? Ansan?
3. IRL's made it clear that its focus is North America, particularly the U.S., as the heir to the 90-odd-year-old U.S. National Driving Championship. Unlike its bankrupt predecessors, it has left no hint that it wants to globetrot.
First, since I was the one calling for an end to the us vs. them arguments I assume this was directed to me. My suggestion was directed at one of the ICS stalwarts, and I made no mention of any numbers. So, I fail to see how I am acting as a "propaganda spokesman". You seem to be mixing some comments from different folks in your admonishment to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Yes it is racing, but not drag racing mind you, where top speed is the all important number. To me, and I dare say a lot of other folks, the relative speed between the participants in a given race or series is a hell of a lot more important than the relative speed between two different series. I do not give a damn if the IRL car is four seconds slower than a Champ Cat, just like I didn't give a damn if an Champ Car was 4 seconds slower than an F1 car back when I never watched the IRL.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Well then let me explain some of those motivations. No one, I repeat no one, is calling for this new series to die. What IS being called for is a hope that when the details of this series emerge, it is clear that it is not trying to shoe horn its way into the same marketing space as the ICS. You DO realize that racing is a business don't you? And that the last twelve years have throughly disproved the theory that good old "King George" had that two series could fill that single marketing space. I am not happy that he was the eventual winner given this flawed theory. But I am sure as hell not going to be happy with someone else trying to prove the theory all over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
As for your "simple task of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch", I challenge YOU to measure who is faster without your damn stop watch. THAT is what is important. How many folks do you see at the track or sitting at home on their couch timing the cars with a stop watch? You do it. I do it. But how many others do it? And if you can't make that measurement without your stopwatch, then guess what, it doesn't matter. Because only a very very minuscule number of folks track side will ever notice the difference. And to suggest in some way that this makes those fans less of a race fan, puts the question in your lap, what kind of race fan are YOU??? The kind of fans WE are are ones who notice the difference in speed between the cars in front of us on the track on that day. Because that is all that REALLY matters to someone who wants to see folks race against each other on the track. WE want to see Dario and Graham duke it on going into a corner. We want to see Helio and Tony dice for position as they play a high stakes game of chicken seeing who can brake latter at the end of a high speed straight. The only "fans" who worry about the speed between Champ Car and F1 are stat geeks. Just what kind of fans are those?
Gary
Another series that wants to try to compete with the IRL is bad. Let's be clear about that. The past twelve years proved, definitively that two series cannot survive in a single market space. There are simply not enough sponsors, venues, drivers, TV networks or fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Let's also get some historical facts straight. The IRL was not born of one organization splitting apart, as your statement above implies. It was born of a brand new series (the IRL), as I said before, "shoe horning" its way into the existing market space of another series (Champ Car). Again, I am not happy that the eventual winner of that war was the series that barged in. But it did win. And you seem to suggest that we should welcome with open arms another battle for the market. That is asking us to ignore what transpired over the past twelve years. Some of us learned from that mistake. Clearly other have not.
Gary