[WRC] News & rumours (part III)

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

So, VWs position in the WRC was not as certain as i believed in the outset.

Jost Capito is a VERY clever man, and nothing he does comes by chance or accident.
He is off cource informed of what happens in VW around this "SmokeGate."
Mathias Müller seems certain to be the New man in the driving seat, as some very prominent heads start rolling in the VAG concern.

Capito, a master of strategy and details, suddenly has the urge to tell the world (or more rightly, tell the New CEO) that VW is always in for the long haul, that they want Citroën like dominance, he paints a picture of a dinner with the cup and all the badges of Citroëns victories.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120946

This can have no other explanation than Capito being VERY concerned about the future of the WRC program.
Why did it take me two days to realize the importance of Capitos statements to Autosport?
Well, most often big companies patch over these things by firing a few leaders, making a good excuse, and coming up with a swift escape plan. Well, seems that they are taking this a bit more seriously. They are firing, amongst others, Ulrich Hackenburg, who has been an extremely successful head of development in Audi. This means that they are taking this all the way.

On a side note: The most probable new CEO, Müller, was the head of strategy in VW to I thinnk 2008, wich has to be the period when this Nox-scam was planned.

Well, lets keep our fingers crossed for VW in the WRC!

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Let's just get some context. For what you're saying about Capito to apply - he would have needed to be aware of the dieselgate issue and also know that it was about to be revealed to the world.

Don't assume that just because a story is published on a given date that that's when the quotes were gathered. In actual fact that piece appeared in Motorsport News a full week before it was published on Autosport (so September 16th) - and the interview likely took place at Rally Australia. Way before all this blew up. They often spread out their stories across the week on Autosport.com. Publishing this one a week late felt particularly lazy, especially given what had happened since.

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Originally Posted by Simmi

Let's just get some context. For what you're saying about Capito to apply - he would have needed to be aware of the dieselgate issue and also know that it was about to be revealed to the world.

Don't assume that just because a story is published on a given date that that's when the quotes were gathered. In actual fact that piece appeared in Motorsport News a full week before it was published on Autosport (so September 16th) - and the interview likely took place at Rally Australia. Way before all this blew up. They often spread out their stories across the week on Autosport.com. Publishing this one a week late felt particularly lazy, especially given what had happened since.

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I did not know that that statement had come earlier, so I have to cool down my cob web weaving a little bit.
Tough I am sure that these types of statements always have at least to meanings, and that Capito not only sends this message to the fans/audience, but also to other important parties.
Remember, one of Capitos best cards in the argument around the future of the WRC, was that he threatened to pull out/or rather that VW would probably pull out if they didn't get their way. By stating that VW is always in for the long run etc, it seems to me that he is sending a different message to a different audience "SmokeGate" or not.

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

"SmokeGate" or not.

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Little off topic... I know You haven't written that in serious manner but actually if there was even a looooot of smoke everything would be ok :) The diesel combustion runs either with a lot of smoke or with a lot of NOx. If I remember well there is no other way. VW problem is a lot of NOx because even SCR is not some wonder-cure to erase the NOx totally. If they run the engines with less NOX they would have more smoke (that is not really a big problem with DPF) but also higher fuel consumption which would probably cost them the title of the most fuel-efficient brand on the US market...

http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...top-priorities
People are calling Mueller to kill every VAG motorsport activity....

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Originally Posted by Simmi

Let's just get some context. For what you're saying about Capito to apply - he would have needed to be aware of the dieselgate issue and also know that it was about to be revealed to the world.

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Don't know if Capito's was already aware but top VW executives were. EPA friday's revelation turned clear why Dr. Piech slam the door in April and on monday's pc Winterkorn admitted VW during talks with EPA. For sure they haven't decide to allocate $7.2b* to potencial losses over the weekend! Probably Muller's nomination was also already decided and today's announced group governance reform too (actually this new structure, empowering the different group brands, can benefit motorsport involvement from each one of them).

From today's pc no cutting costs were mentioned, and it was a relief to see Muller confirmed as CEO (Diess has a heavy cost cutting reputation). My (wishful) bet is on VW staying in WRC, Porsche in WEC and the already expected Audi exit from WEC (keeping DTM and reinforcing FE support to ABT Team, instead of the rumored F1 joining up).

*it's more or less VW's 1/2 year profit, and just last August they've cashed out $3.9b from Suzuki's back share trade.

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Originally Posted by macebig

http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...top-priorities
People are calling Mueller to kill every VAG motorsport activity....

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...no need to suffer over the news, mate. VW is heavily capitalized, the stock dispersion is limited and the Porsche/Piech families still have the group control.

Suffer?I hope they get the hell out of WRC and stick their arrogance up their candy asses...My only worry is that in 2017 we may only have 2 teams

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Originally Posted by macebig

Suffer?I hope they get the hell out of WRC and stick their arrogance up their candy asses...My only worry is that in 2017 we may only have 2 teams

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Brilliant idea...

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

For those of You with conspiratory tendencies(...)

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How about this one: Is there any link between ICCT (the north american NGO that made the emissions tests on VW's cars) and Apple or Google?

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

How about this one: Is there any link between ICCT (the north american NGO that made the emissions tests on VW's cars) and Apple or Google?

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To answer that You must understand how business in the US works, and how connected the big companies are to the state, and vice versa.

Both Google and Apple (and a lot of other companies) have an open door towards the US intelligence community. And this also plays the other way around. Often the US intelligence community is helping large US companies in different situations.

The great Swedish inventor Håkan Lans (the man behind color graphics in computers, the air plane navigation system and other things), discovered this first hand when a US computer company breached one of his patents. Lans was contacted and threatened by representatives from the US intelligence community, and there was brake ins, bugging etc etc. Even the journalists that made the documentary about him experienced the same, including brake ins. This is not exclusive to the US of A, but there the connections are very tight.

What will happen in other countries now, that have a competing car industry, is that their leaders first will have confedential meetings with their industry leaders to see if they also cheat on emissions. If they do they will rattle a little with their swords, and then let it blow over. If the local car industry dont cheat, they will most probably "attack" VW, as long as VW dont have factories or large subcontractors in their country.

VW has already "lawyered up" with the same company that defended BP in the scandal in the Mexican Gulf, so they are expecting a storm of some proportions!

In the mean time Piech has "his" man Müller replacing Winterkorn in the CEO seat, and being the majority share holder, he can now buy up for incredible prices (VW real value is much higher than during this scandal), so he can gain even more control, both by bargain prices shares and having his person(s) leading VW.

Connections, they are everywhere, just follow the money :)

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Originally Posted by macebig

http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...top-priorities
People are calling Mueller to kill every VAG motorsport activity....

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It's just some columnist that didn't know what to write in a boring thursday evening but he had to write something to get the salary at the end of the month.

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Originally Posted by macebig

Suffer?I hope they get the hell out of WRC and stick their arrogance up their candy asses..

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they just have to take Ogier with them....

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

...no need to suffer over the news, mate. VW is heavily capitalized, the stock dispersion is limited and the Porsche/Piech families still have the group control.

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Porsche people getting more grip... first new boss of whole VAG, now also new boss of Škoda (former boss Vahland was sent to US to cope with the crisis).

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

The only dominant force in the WRC is Ogier. Its not about budget, or car.
He would be a World Champion in the Ford, the Hyundai or the Citroën. That's how good he is. That's how big a difference a driver makes.
Just look at the differences in speed whiting VW, and that's between the three drivers in the WRC that VW thinks are the best.

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Certainly agree with you there, but VW 1,2 and 3 is becoming boring.

Dominant driver and dominant car.

Either way, I doubt the VW team will be expected to change many plans; it's part of their sales and marketing strategy to make sales and they're going to need those sales more than ever. Fortunately, the new top brass have good history with supporting motorsport too, so here's hoping they stick around.

Americans say that " to save money by limiting advertising is like stopping the clock to save time" VW are not that stupid... relax girls, nothing is going to change VW plans in WRC

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

Americans say that " to save money by limiting advertising is like stopping the clock to save time" VW are not that stupid... relax girls, nothing is going to change VW plans in WRC

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Stop WRC doesn't mean to stop advertising. They could still change their strategies.
But yes, I would not bet my money on their exit.

Has Alonso ever had a rally car test drive? or would Button be better to put in RX?

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Little off topic... I know You haven't written that in serious manner but actually if there was even a looooot of smoke everything would be ok :) The diesel combustion runs either with a lot of smoke or with a lot of NOx. If I remember well there is no other way. VW problem is a lot of NOx because even SCR is not some wonder-cure to erase the NOx totally. If they run the engines with less NOX they would have more smoke (that is not really a big problem with DPF) but also higher fuel consumption which would probably cost them the title of the most fuel-efficient brand on the US market...

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Ok, I actually have insight in this issue and can thus answer this question rather well since I work with diesel ship engines on a daily basis.
NOx is created during the combustion phase of the diesel cycle and is dependent on combustion time (i.e slower engine speed equals more nox) and combustion temperature. Diesels combust at much higher temperature than petrol and it's relatively long stroke means it can't run as fast, which is why it is plagued much more by the issue of NOx than petrol engines.

You don't actually get rid of NOx by running the engine less stoichiometrically (which is when the smoke appears) so smoke doesn't mean no NOx. Smoke comes when the engine is running rich at which point you see the unburnt carbons in the exhaust. Petrol cars have the same issue with unburnt fuel and non stoichiometric running but petrol don't form the same carbon strains as diesel do so the unburnt fuel isn't visible (and therefor looks more environmental during hard acceleration or heavy load increases when it runs rich).

Diesels are also very dependent on good atomization to get good combustion or you will see the typical black smoke. If you have blown the injectors you'll notice the smoke.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to clarify my position. I don't actually neither expect nore hope for a VW exit, just some budget cuts so the racing would be a bit closer and not VW 1, 2, 3 on every single problem free rally!

Of course Ogier would still win but he'd maybe not win every rally of the season!

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Originally Posted by itix

Ok, I actually have insight in this issue and can thus answer this question rather well since I work with diesel ship engines on a daily basis.
NOx is created during the combustion phase of the diesel cycle and is dependent on combustion time (i.e slower engine speed equals more nox) and combustion temperature. Diesels combust at much higher temperature than petrol and it's relatively long stroke means it can't run as fast, which is why it is plagued much more by the issue of NOx than petrol engines.

You don't actually get rid of NOx by running the engine less stoichiometrically (which is when the smoke appears) so smoke doesn't mean no NOx. Smoke comes when the engine is running rich at which point you see the unburnt carbons in the exhaust. Petrol cars have the same issue with unburnt fuel and non stoichiometric running but petrol don't form the same carbon strains as diesel do so the unburnt fuel isn't visible (and therefor looks more environmental during hard acceleration or heavy load increases when it runs rich).

Diesels are also very dependent on good atomization to get good combustion or you will see the typical black smoke. If you have blown the injectors you'll notice the smoke.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to clarify my position. I don't actually neither expect nore hope for a VW exit, just some budget cuts so the racing would be a bit closer and not VW 1, 2, 3 on every single problem free rally!

Of course Ogier would still win but he'd maybe not win every rally of the season!

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Very good diesel knowledge!

Regarding VW and the WRC, I think their either in it to win it, or out all together. VW doesn't do things half way in motorsport. If its WEC (the two top teams), DTM or WRC, they do it with full commitment.

Colin Clark ‏@voiceofrally
China organiser apparently not happy at being asked to run event close to Beijing. Also hearing Abu Dhabi working towards 2017 calendar slot

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

Very good diesel knowledge!

Regarding VW and the WRC, I think their either in it to win it, or out all together. VW doesn't do things half way in motorsport.

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But they only did their cheating and manipulation 'half way' ;) - bye bye VW from WRC. Ogier will be driving a Citroën next year.

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Originally Posted by MikeD

But they only did their cheating and manipulation 'half way' ;) - bye bye VW from WRC. Ogier will be driving a Citroën next year.

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Nah, that would be too easy. Let him drive the new and improved Fiesta ;)

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Originally Posted by MikeD

But they only did their cheating and manipulation 'half way' ;) - bye bye VW from WRC. Ogier will be driving a Citroën next year.

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Looks like you have some serious VW trauma. Bad for you that you will have to deal with them some more years to come.

Loeb is confirmed to drive DAKAR 2016
http://planetemarcus.com/loeb-et-elena-au-dakar-2016/

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Originally Posted by MikeD

But they only did their cheating and manipulation 'half way' ;) - bye bye VW from WRC. Ogier will be driving a Citroën next year.

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I am sorry to say, that when they first decided to cheat, they did it all the way...

Some News before todays WMSC Meeting:

China on provisional 2016 WRC calendar, but 14 rallies angers Teams...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121082

tbh i wouldnt like another loeb domination with ogier, it would be boring 1995-2002 was fun :)

In Mexico, 2016 is almost guaranteed the stretch of 80 kilometers and has the support of the official world tyre suply to take over.

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Originally Posted by rayh_mx

In Mexico, 2016 is almost guaranteed the stretch of 80 kilometers and has the support of the official world tyre suply to take over.

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Sorry I am not sure what you mean, a single 80 km stage? what be great.

its done ! China enter to 2016 .. and WRC with 14 Rallyes !

http://planetemarcus.com/14-rallyes-...aison-wrc-2016

I don't find it really big news that the calendar will be extended, a replacement would be better I guess

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...17&oe=568BB43C

Okay so now we have 14 rounds. Let's see if M-Sport and Citroen walk away like they said they would if this happens.

Citroën wants China :) China is in.

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Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...17&oe=568BB43C

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If I read that correctly Rally2 cars will no longer sweep on day two. Bad news for Ogier.

Why do they want to furter limit power of supercharged R2 cars when there is only Fiesta R2T with turbo and that one was hardly the top R2 in 2015 season?

Calendar situation is a real mess.

Manufacturers want China - but all want to keep 13 rounds to ensure budget remains similar.

FIA don't have the balls to axe an event - or rather - Jean Todt can't stomach seeing the French round rightly disappear.

We end up with not only an extra round, but an additional long-haul trip - so the budget goes up markedly for everyone.

How many fans will turn up for Rally China? You'd hope it's more than 1999 - otherwise what's the point in going? Rallying is a 'live' sport rather than a TV sport.

http://www.fia.com/news/fia-announce...ncil-decisions