Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

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Originally Posted by mknight

Manufacturers as well as public try to extrapolate what people will buy and manus will make in 10 years based on a few months of sales differences.

That can bring totally crazy results both ways. Some people (often outside of automotive) predicted that everyone will only buy EVs in 5-10 years. Similarly some people (often those that have 0 EV experience) predict that there won't be any EVs in 5-10 years.

The result will be somewhere in between. If regulations stay about the same I expect something like 50/50 for BEV vs others (incl Hybrids) in Europe in 10 years. Here in Norway it's 80/20 for quite some time now and I don't see it changing more than 5-10 percent either way.

What is mentioned in the Dirtfish article is that right now (last 3 months) EV sales globally have slowed down, so some manus found out that they might not have anything (new) to offer outside of EVs in the very near future and are re-routing some money to other drivetrains. Whether that is temporary fix or permanent is close to impossible to predict at the moment.

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With current technology of batteries, charging, infrastructure etc, it is nonsense for EV to be majority on the market. This is very simple. If the technology will change or there will be big development, then we can talk about changes... And yes, I have also experience with hybrids and electric cars. And I hate them :)

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Originally Posted by Mirek

There are more factors but the most important one (especially whe you count the whole stage) is the power you can take away from the brakes, i.e with normal brakes the heat you can dissipate. Recuperation takes away huge amount of heat.

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Ah yes I was only thinking of out right stopping power.

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Originally Posted by Walach

They just market it as HF, in a very same manner that Skoda market their product as "Fabia RS Rally2" despite actual road-going Fabia RS not existing since 2014, same as Ford with the "Fiesta RS WRC" without actual RS version of Fiesta ever existing.
What an audacity.

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Not really, they are spot on. A road going Fabia RS is the Rally2. That's what it means, that's where the sport, the tech, the specs are... If your Fabia isn't rally ready, it's not an RS. And you can absolutely go and buy one.

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Originally Posted by PLuto

With current technology of batteries, charging, infrastructure etc, it is nonsense for EV to be majority on the market. This is very simple. If the technology will change or there will be big development, then we can talk about changes... And yes, I have also experience with hybrids and electric cars. And I hate them :)

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One of my favorite quotes:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

"Current technology" is a notable part of the discussion. EV sold today has basically the same technology as 10 years ago... except it evolved massively.
Yes there has not be a massive step in range/charging, but there have been lots of tiny steps. Together these added up so that nowadays mainstream cars have 500 km real range in summer and some 400 in winter (real winter, not 1 week of snow and barely below zero) and charge half the battery in under 15 mins.

The only real limit for EVs becoming mainstream is the price. The high prices are partly caused by manufacturers themselves cause they all started with big SUVs with lots of power that they could make good margins on.

Found a graph for you to explain while I have issues with people living in CZ explaining how EVs don't work:

https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/e...e-vedou-244690

CZ with 3% EV sales in 2023 (3rd lowest in EU, though the two last have 2.9 and 2.7% which is basically the same). Norway is not on the chart cause it is not in EU, but the rate is over 80% for some time. (The rate of EVs to total number of vehicles on the road is over 25% and increasing)

Yes EVs are comparably cheaper in Norway due to the tax system, which removes the price issue. (Though in practice it mostly means people buy better cars than they did before for the same price.)
Still it doesn't change that it can be used to see if all the other EV "issues" are a big problem....and they aren't.

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Originally Posted by becher

Ah yes I was only thinking of out right stopping power.

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Actually I was not very precise there. Recuperation helps greatly with stopping power because it creates torque opposite to the movement of the wheel and doesn't generate any heat on the brakes. That means that it's an additional braking power on top of what the brakes themselves can do.

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Originally Posted by mknight

One of my favorite quotes:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

"Current technology" is a notable part of the discussion. EV sold today has basically the same technology as 10 years ago... except it evolved massively.
Yes there has not be a massive step in range/charging, but there have been lots of tiny steps. Together these added up so that nowadays mainstream cars have 500 km real range in summer and some 400 in winter (real winter, not 1 week of snow and barely below zero) and charge half the battery in under 15 mins.

The only real limit for EVs becoming mainstream is the price. The high prices are partly caused by manufacturers themselves cause they all started with big SUVs with lots of power that they could make good margins on.

Found a graph for you to explain while I have issues with people living in CZ explaining how EVs don't work:

https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/e...e-vedou-244690

CZ with 3% EV sales in 2023 (3rd lowest in EU, though the two last have 2.9 and 2.7% which is basically the same). Norway is not on the chart cause it is not in EU, but the rate is over 80% for some time. (The rate of EVs to total number of vehicles on the road is over 25% and increasing)

Yes EVs are comparably cheaper in Norway due to the tax system, which removes the price issue. (Though in practice it mostly means people buy better cars than they did before for the same price.)
Still it doesn't change that it can be used to see if all the other EV "issues" are a big problem....and they aren't.

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The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

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Originally Posted by mknight

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"Can do" - is able to run or finish.

Nothing about speed.

You know that 1990 group A car would get beaten by 1986 group B car. 2013 Fiesta WRC would get beaten by 2008 Focus WRC on most rallies etc.

Ironically the epic looking and sounding group B car would also get beaten by even WRC car from 2003 on most rallies due to much better suspension and traction.

Speed does only matter inside own class, spectacle matters more. In terms of EVs the car could be more spectacular out of corners especially slow corners but will obviously lose time in faster corners and braking. (Kinda exact opposite of an S2000).

If EV rally car can deliver more spectacle than current Rally2 it won't matter if its only marginally faster. Some 0,5-1s/km faster than current Rally2 should be possible even by your rough numbers.

To make Rally EV spectacular it needs to have much more power even at the expense of much more weight. Not be "similar" to petrol cars. So more like the NitroRX cars than the 360 hp RX2e cars.


With regards to the numbers you don't seem to take away the extra weight of the petrol engine as well as some related bits like center diff and much bigger gearbox. But if we instead assume a bigger battery the weight difference would likely be about the same.

For comparison current Taycan and Ioniq 5N will do over 50 km (over 2 laps) at Nurburgring at max push before the batteries overheat with battery capacity to spare. In a racing car cooling could obviously be increased.

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You are cooking a soup of water.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Actually I was not very precise there. Recuperation helps greatly with stopping power because it creates torque opposite to the movement of the wheel and doesn't generate any heat on the brakes. That means that it's an additional braking power on top of what the brakes themselves can do.

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Well yes, but is that power even usable? I struggle to put it together in english, but if you where to increase the stopping power a lot, wouldn't the braking force be much to high compared to your friction force that the tyres can handle?

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Originally Posted by Mirek

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

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Yep the common tax payer is subsidizing luxury BEV SUV for rich people and the manufacturers are even allowed to advertise the cars with the subsidized price. Madness. It's horrible from a social point.

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Originally Posted by becher

Well yes, but is that power even usable? I struggle to put it together in english, but if you where to increase the stopping power a lot, wouldn't the braking force be much to high compared to your friction force that the tyres can handle?

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Yes because you can brake more while not risking overheating of the brakes. One braking and one stage with hundreds of brakings in close sequence is different thing.

last weekend v8supercars had one of the best racing ever.
got 25min to do nothing but watch youtube? go for it, you will not regreat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr6wz8oLrmM

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Originally Posted by Mirek

You are cooking a soup of water.

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You were telling lies again and responded by changing the subject. Then when that got pointed out you follow on by random trolling.

Well played.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

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1. In the list of EV market share by country about half of those countries had no subsidies. Including many of those with 20-30% market share. How does that happen in your opinion when it's all about subsidies?

2. For those countries that have subsidies there are many different systems. Most went from general subsidy no matter the price over to price limits where you get lower or no subsidy for more expensive EVs. Usually this happened within a few years of EV sales increasing. So this argument is dimished in most markets.

3. Another point is that if an EV subsidy makes your rich neighbor change his 3L TDI Q7 for Tesla X to drive kids around it might be a net win for the local environment in terms of sound and smell.

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

Within 10 years there´s not much EV´s sold at all.

Hydrogen engines will rather rule.

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Without considering distribution and storage production of hydrogen would need a lot of energy.

Consider the next big energy producers being in geologically active areas like Iceland, Hawaii, east Asia, Nicaragua, Wyoming, and Italy...

extreme-e is going hydrogen for next season, now under fia's governing body instead of acm (monaco's organization) but i still cant wrap my head around how some claim hydrogen is "cleaner" since you gotta USE ENERGY to split molecules and to store the gas form in a cell. those are two extra steps, for example. (i bet theres more on safety and construction, but eh. its all green washing too, in a way. it is not 'cleaner'. (at least as far as i understand. the same way [street] evs are not cleaner than regular modern cars - unless you keep your ev for 4 years to compensate materials used in construction, extra weight causing more ''damage'' on the roads, etc)

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Originally Posted by skarderud

Well, in a climate that it is in norway and sweden, i doubt hydrogen is the solution.
Its steam that comes out, you don't need much fantasy to understand how 20.000 cars in the morning and the temperature is below 0 will "adjust" the griplevel on the road.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

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Haha, that I never heard before. :)

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Originally Posted by Gregor-y

Without considering distribution and storage production of hydrogen would need a lot of energy.

Consider the next big energy producers being in geologically active areas like Iceland, Hawaii, east Asia, Nicaragua, Wyoming, and Italy...

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For sure. You are absolutely right. But generating hydrogen with nuclear should be very much more environmental efficient, tha manufacturing EV batteries.

You heard about Northvolt problems?

haha jesus fck, no joke. i was riding my bike, and now theres those byd chinese electric cars here now in my country. one of those almost runned me over! i coulndt hear it comming. jeeeez, so close, im still shaking. haha first thing i thought: "naaah, south american and eastern europeans fans will all die on stages with these silent cars" hahahah

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Originally Posted by saco0o

extreme-e is going hydrogen for next season, now under fia's governing body instead of acm (monaco's organization) but i still cant wrap my head around how some claim hydrogen is "cleaner" since you gotta USE ENERGY to split molecules and to store the gas form in a cell. those are two extra steps, for example. (i bet theres more on safety and construction, but eh. its all green washing too, in a way. it is not 'cleaner'. (at least as far as i understand. the same way [street] evs are not cleaner than regular modern cars - unless you keep your ev for 4 years to compensate materials used in construction, extra weight causing more ''damage'' on the roads, etc)

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You could overbuild nuclear power, or even solar+wind, and use the leftover power to generate hydrogen.

Today a lot of electricity is already being wasted because it's produced at the wrong time. Turning it into hydrogen to power cars could be a good solution.

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Originally Posted by saco0o

haha jesus fck, no joke. i was riding my bike, and now theres those byd chinese electric cars here now in my country. one of those almost runned me over! i coulndt hear it comming. jeeeez, so close, im still shaking. haha first thing i thought: "naaah, south american and eastern europeans fans will all die on stages with these silent cars" hahahah

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Nothing new, but I thought there would be some warning noise by now. I was nearly hit by a silent Prius years ago.

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Originally Posted by mknight

You were telling lies again and responded by changing the subject. Then when that got pointed out you follow on by random trolling.

Well played.

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Enjoy your time. I'm not interested in your way of discussion. I just want to say that I was expecting a lot more from you than a completely empty set of impressions and accusations.

interesting. Jaguar is shutting down most of its car's production to shift its focus to just one electric suv. i read they will do this also to increase profit, instead of making several different cars. they will expand its variety again later in the future with only evs, but it looks the main idea for the next years is to produce just one model. idk how much they can save by not offering different models for buyers, since people have different taste, but eh. i like the brand. they are leading formula-e this season. anyway (...) probably no reason to think inflation and decline in sells will push every brand into this direction, eh?

Reads like they are upgrading their production facilities in the meantime for new models on new platforms. Other than that, there's not much to read into it IMO.

https://youtu.be/UHctk-oiU5k?feature=shared
re-asking... is this some joke or for real?.haha

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Originally Posted by saco0o

https://youtu.be/UHctk-oiU5k?feature=shared
re-asking... is this some joke or for real?.haha

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Yepp.

A "what if?" as a bit of fun...

If you were Yohan Rossel (good on tarmac), and Hyundai (short of a 3rd driver for tarmac) offered you some WRC1 fourth car outings on tarmac rounds, would you take them if your contract with Citroen allowed?

I think I wouldn't. It would mean him not competing in his best rallies in WRC2 where he is leading the championship.

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Originally Posted by Morte66

A "what if?" as a bit of fun...

If you were Yohan Rossel (good on tarmac), and Hyundai (short of a 3rd driver for tarmac) offered you some WRC1 fourth car outings on tarmac rounds, would you take them if your contract with Citroen allowed?

I think I wouldn't. It would mean him not competing in his best rallies in WRC2 where he is leading the championship.

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I would, assuming I have the desire to play at the top table. I already have an FIA Rally2 title.

Good question.

two latvian rallycross drivers doing the super special stage. man i love these cars, for real
https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=7450877421684425

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Originally Posted by Morte66

A "what if?" as a bit of fun...

If you were Yohan Rossel (good on tarmac), and Hyundai (short of a 3rd driver for tarmac) offered you some WRC1 fourth car outings on tarmac rounds, would you take them if your contract with Citroen allowed?

I think I wouldn't. It would mean him not competing in his best rallies in WRC2 where he is leading the championship.

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Definitely. You have to take any such chances as you may never get another.

Since they are passing there, I though you would might like to know the Tour de France is now heading to the Col de Turini (& they already passed Col de Braus today).

Wow, can't believe it. Tavares, CEO of Stellantis is claiming that they will close or sell brands that are not profitable. And those who are mentioned are Lancia... And right when they show interest in rallying again. Even if they sell them, I think they don't have a chance of surviving. And how would that impact their only car which is practically a 208/Corsa?

They won't sell these brands but they would mothball them as Chinese brands take over the production facilities.

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Originally Posted by deephouse

Wow, can't believe it. Tavares, CEO of Stellantis is claiming that they will close or sell brands that are not profitable. And those who are mentioned are Lancia... And right when they show interest in rallying again. Even if they sell them, I think they don't have a chance of surviving. And how would that impact their only car which is practically a 208/Corsa?

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Well, isn't Lancia already "closed" since a while? Puppet company that sells only one car in Italy, where nobody cares about the Ypsilon, neither old nor new.

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Originally Posted by focus206

Well, isn't Lancia already "closed" since a while? Puppet company that sells only one car in Italy, where nobody cares about the Ypsilon, neither old nor new.

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I was referring to the news that they are testing a new Rally4 car. And their rich history and success in this sport. They simply can't die.

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Originally Posted by deephouse

I was referring to the news that they are testing a new Rally4 car. And their rich history and success in this sport. They simply can't die.

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CEOs rarely care about rallying and racing past success, unfortunately... already FIAT decided to let Lancia almost disappear, so I'm not surprised Stellantis would say that.

What, if anything, do you get for winning "WRC2 Challenger"?

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Originally Posted by Morte66

What, if anything, do you get for winning "WRC2 Challenger"?

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You get to pay for your own trip to the gala where you collect your trophy.

Jari Marti Latvala's pace on this Friday morning cannot be doing the regular WRC2 front runners a favour.

With the exception of Oliver Solberg, Latvala seems to be coping with the pace of the rest comfortably. Begs the question, just how far are the pack in their development. Jari may be a a former frontman, but he isn't anywhere near what he was and yet appears to be holding his own with remarkable ease. Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by 240RS

Jari Marti Latvala's pace on this Friday morning cannot be doing the regular WRC2 front runners a favour.

With the exception of Oliver Solberg, Latvala seems to be coping with the pace of the rest comfortably. Begs the question, just how far are the pack in their development. Jari may be a a former frontman, but he isn't anywhere near what he was and yet appears to be holding his own with remarkable ease. Food for thought.

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but he is driving his car in his team. he has more resources than any other driver, he can drive and test unlimited.

It is a little ironic that Sami Pajari, the obvious competition, is in WRC1.

When the season started I wondered whether Sami might win this "WRC2 Challenger" thing, but he looks like a contender for WRC2 overall. Missing Finland, his home rally, in WRC2 can't help with that. [Of course, the WRC1 rally is a big deal as well.]